socks

Indeed, the height of arrogance. A most beautiful wreck, LCM was. Great snap shot, sky. I guess their hedge of protection got a good....trimming. Opened up the view a little.

Paul Allen and WayDale set the model, IMO. Information was online prior to that, some discussion sites like Trancenet but they weren't specific or focused in the way Allen and his board were. One guy, one story, one platform. A crowd gathered around that and grew. GS is part of that growth. The web content really expanded very quickly once he opened up WayDale. I always assumed - from day one, that was what he intended. Get it up and get a crowd contributing, lots of discussion, debate, hell raising, squabbles, the good the bad the ugly. It was very successful. His pending lawsuit and the ongoing discussion created a s--t storm that quite literally buried the Way Inc. in sheer pounds of words written. Everything that's been written on WayDale or here in forums isn't true or factually correct however. I'm sure everyone here has read things on all sides of the fence they wouldn't bet to be true and have doubts about. That doesn't make the platform unstable and isn't outside the range of normal expectation. It would be unreasonable in my opinion to expect 100 per cent true facts or to proceed only if there was 100 per cent truth. That's where Wayfers get fouled up IMO. Rather than accept the inevitability of human imperfection (which they so grandly exemplify) and work within the realities of human effort and work towards bettering the process they back step into piles of "just the Word".....don't do anything except quote the Bible, cherry pickin' Bible verses. That just ignores reality and cuts off the ultimate purpose of man's creation - to glorify God, each in his own way and identity. Facebook? I treat that a little different. No grand purpose there, for me, just a public web presence of sorts and really - the value is the ease it allows for exchanging certain kinds of things like photos, etc. with family. There's other means of doing that though so it's not as if it's a permanent fixture in my philosophical pyramid of life or anything. I reserve the right to delete anything I consider inappropriate. I treat it as a conversation from my doorstep. Get ugly with me, right or wrong - I don't care. You're going to get gone really quick. That's just the way it is. I won't stink up my page with stuff I don't like. It's a matter of choice and preference, me, moi - what I like and don't like and what my friends and family feel about it. I got some political rants from ex Wayfers last year that caused some of my more earth bound friends to message me and ask "what the f's with that goober?"....they were nice about it but those who really know me know I"m passionate but push comes to shove I'm not going to condemn you to hell for anything other than possibly backing the wrong team for the World Series, that kind of thing. So I do reserve the right to change the channel, if I so choose. Big whoopdee doo. If that makes anyone so irate they smell mind-control-nuttiness, they may not be able to be my friend then - okay, I guess I can accept that. That hurts. I'll suffer terribly and likely lose many a night's sleep, tortured by the loss. But I'll survive, with less and wounded and of course terribly deluded though I be... but - I'll survive. />

Nor I. Bye to this one. Stay warm. The Pope is as close to a worthless use of human kind that we can get, IMO. It doesn't get said enough, probably because it can't be said too much. I'm sure at some point every Pope was just like all of us at one time - young and full of hope. People make their choices. Apparently there's not enough good Catholics doing good to counteract the organizational ability of the Church to do bad. Thus - the ongoing treachery of the Church as delivered by it's leadership. I see this as normal (in fact but IMO only), I would assign the outcomes of humanity in general to things like inertia and the First Law of Motion, basic stuff and that those things factor into how God works and accomplishes. It's His Choice though - that He leaves some of the choices in our domain and up to us. While human intellect and "will" provides dynamic and seemingly unpredictable elements to the mix of mans' march forward, things do seem to work in cycles, back and forth, up and down, over the long curve of time. IMO this is as it should be and as it will be until something - let's say "God" - changes the rules of the field. Doesn't mean we'll get used to it or like it or even fully understand it. My way of expressing that state is "Life is cool. When it doesn't suck". And - Life sucks - when it isn't cool. Life is difficult at best for many and is in serious "suck" mode for many of us, much of the time. Others and times and other people, not so much that way and it could be versed as "good" and nice. But IMO it won't be grandly swell and wonderful for everyone or even most, all the time. But the Pope? The Pope is really an office that's filled every few years by a different guy. Different guy, same path that got him there. It will take monumental change to get a different office and a different kind of guy. As a non RC I don't care. As a member of Club Earth, I do but I'm hoping they don't keep adding to the pot of problems. It's getting thick as it is.

Exactly why I have no sympathy for this Pope. Or his predecessors. The Pope acts like he's completely disconnected from reality, way high up in the clouds somewhere and wouldn't know a molester from a can o' paint. It's somebody else's problem, those Americans, those other guys over there. Here he's the Head guy of the organization for which the accused work for (and the RC's seem to like to settle out of court) and ... You'd think he'd be F'ING ....ED OFF AND READY TO KICK SOME foot at the horrid irresponsibility of the priest hood, that he'd be able to see how much it's killing people, inside and out. Instead he walks around with his fricking hand up in that ridiculous blessing gesture, barely able to walk and acts like his mere presence is enough, just that he shows up is reward enough for those who rush to kiss his ring. Well, the "investigation" is some kind of a move in the right direction. And may be this pope's retiring reflects some level of realization of what a complete dik brain he is. Pope needs to go. Others to follow, soon. Dump the ballast and clean house. Catholics can then Hail Mary!

Probably not - but hope springs eternal they say. This hit me last week in the midst of this story hitting the news - seriously. RC theology includes Mary as an active partner and participant in God's plan of redemption. Mary is their Mediatrix and although it's not fully baked into the doctrine, Mary's role as the active intercessor of God's grace - God, Christ, grace delivered through Mary - is debated and I would say has a place of general but vague acceptance amongst many Catholics. I recited 1000's of times the Big 3 - The Our Father, the Hail Mary and the Apostle's Creed. The "Hail Mary" is a cornerstone of Catholic prayer life and her presence a part of much of the faith's meditative posture. Catholics would defend it as a good thing, not a bad one and not as destructive. Rather, as an important and vital recognition of God's eternal purposes. Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death. Amen. We used to pass around a big plastic statue of Mary, hollow, that contained a big set of Rosary Beads, that was used to recite these prayers. Catholics know the drill. You recite over 50 HM's. It's an act of "Marian" devotion with spiritiual designs yes but after a few dozen rosaries - and that's just a drop in the bucket for a Catholic - over time you pretty much get Mary burned in the brain. There's a lot of $ in rosaries, we used to pick a new one up every couple years, "holy cards", little statues - lots of Mary stuff. It was like a year round rock concert, there was always stuff to buy and take home with you. Mary, the Mother of God, is forever burned in Catholic consciousness as a young woman, fair, pretty, the archetype of human grace and devotion. And Catholics approach Mary in a very practical way - get on the skids with God, God is the Angry Old Man of the Clouds, ready to judge and condemn. Mary? Mary's that part of spirituality that represents true faith, love, innocence, obedience and trust. To a Catholic, more so than Christ in my opinion - Christ is the image of defeat and suffering, dreadful horrible suffering, immortalized in image and icon forever on the cross - the sacrifice. Mary is in a very real and practical way the expression of God's kindness, forgiveness and grace in the human form - much more than Jesus Christ who was the person of God. Mary's on the bus, just like one of us because she is. One of us. This is how the Roman Catholic orders taught and represented the teaching when I was growing up. SO - It hit me, like a ton o' lead - why does traditional RC management disconnect these doctrinal positions from the realities of Church leadership and governance? A female Pope would seem logical, natural, an extension of the heart and core of the faith. Sure, it was Peter they believe that got the Keys to the Church and they've flailed on that succession for 100's of years now - but really....maybe Peter/The Pope should be more of a Grounds Keeper kind of guy, capable and active, but the true hand of leadership be a succession from Mary.... ? Hail Mary! Yeah, I know. />/>/>

It's time the members took back their church and ousted the bloated papist tics in Rome. Given that the RC's revere Mary as the Mother of God and that they call it the "Mother Church" - really, the entire rejection of female clergy in the church is bizarre, to say the least. There's more Lady's of this and Mother's of that in the RC church than - well at least as many as in any decent mythology. It's really kind of funny and indicative of the dysfunctional world of their belief that a church is on the one hand so overwhelmingly male, and single male and at the same time has such a huge preoccupation with one woman, one completely unattainable in any real, personal way. No wonder they have so many problems. Time for a Popess? It would actually seem like the right direction for them to go when you think about it. Why doesn't the Mother Church have a Good Mother to rule it? Food for thought....

Moi? Raised on the stuff. I sweat Catholic Kool Aid for 10 years of parochial education. It was a tempestuous relationship at best. It did give me a view into the diversity of the religious orders populace. I never heard a thing about the perv priest stuff until I was in high school and middle of the first year there were a couple of guys who'd entered seminary immediately after graduating elementary level and then quit within a year and showed up. They talked about there being "queer" priests and how weird they were. I didn't ask a lot of questions, I was just glad they'd been able to drop out - some families pressure their kids to stay in. So that was about 1964. Law suits have come out of that seminary years later. But - nothing, not one from the elementary school I attended. I got to know those priests pretty well and although they were goobers of the highest degree there's no way I believe they would have been involved or tolerated such things. One in particular would have gone medieval on anything like that, I'm sure. So they weren't and aren't all bad. But the Pope? the Vatican old guard? Bishops, Cardinals? Generations of swine replicating over and over. RC theology makes Scientology look reasonable. /> and those guys are the head pricks in the dik parade.

The Pope, the Vatican and the entire Roman operation and it's worldwide network are an insult to humanity. IMO. Talk about Drama Queen Religion - middle aged Catholics gasping and clutching their rosary beads, can't pray fast enough for the ol' Pope and his apparently declining health. Pope - see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya. One of these days if justice is served your entire tax-shielded-golden-egg-multi-billion-dollar-club-for-men will be drug by it's dirty collar into the street and thrown to the gutter. In the meantime, enjoy your retirement.

True, WW. Usually they go until they expire. I'm sure Catholics will sleep better knowing this one's final years are spent in relative comfort. For an Emperor. I think he gets a gold bathtub, Ron.

Ex-RC, here. I'm glad he retired, if his strength and health prevent him carrying out his duties. Sounds like he retires to the Vatican's equivalent of a villa, with his own staff and round the clock security. Your donations at work to support the priestly "vow of poverty". Because it's so highly unusual for a Pope to retire this side of 6 feet under a side of me figures there are larger forces at work like Catholic and global politics. I mean, you look at some of those guys, God love 'em but they couldn't stand up straight or speak without wheezing. More power to him - he's got the golden ring to retirement heaven for a priest...as long as this isn't really the first step to some future "accident". (Just another Nutty Conspiracy) />

I think the question was - could you elaborate on what the good stuff is, in your own words and what does it mean to you? VPWster actually did teach along these lines regarding grace and very much to the overwhelming saltation, all that transferred the "old" with the "new", the age of Law and the age of Grace that followed as part of the atonement in Christ. I'll say, this gentleman puts it forth very well, and does a good job setting it forth but it's not in conflict with what VPW taught in PFAL, at all. Where there is conflict and that not only for subsequent endeavors of VPW is that in practice there can be a tendency towards the same cause and effect, earn/rewards process mindset that man has in a pre-atoned state, a be good or else kind of a deal, do what I say, not what I do, etc. that line of thinking where man's natural sense of loss (his ultimate death) over shadows his newness of life in Christ. Way theology pushed "rewards" - benefits from "doing the Word" that would be realized in the future, as part of the grace package-in-Christ. That's not an entirely unique stance, Catholic theology has forms of it. However VPW taught that atonement, salvation and God's merciful forgiveness were a gift, not an earned benefit and that charis/grace was in the "Christ in" us. The "in Christ" part of his teaching was the flip of that, what we do with what we already have received. It's in PFAL, maybe you did miss it. I'm not defending or trashing. That was one of the main things that caught my ear and mind when I first heard it years ago. Having been raised in years of dense Catholic teachings I immediately saw the differences.

I would say yes, there are strains of that visible in society. In the Way if I believed that Satan was pushing cue balls around on the table of life, I'd be trying to identify and understand who, what, where, and when. The why would be filtered through theology. I know this isn't a political discussion but politics is a fertile ground for this kind of thinking in that category, way's...... I was somewhat surprised that a lot of people got behind Sarah Palin, fr'instance. Yet, she never said...anything...that was insightful, illuminating or even in many cases knowledgeable. No matter whether I agreed with her or her politics at all, or was of the same mindset or opinion. (I wanted to support her at first but was just unable as time went on).....She was a spokesperson of sorts, appointed by her party and given opportunity to present...which was fine. Well meaning but not meeting my expectations for the White House positions. Not to say that McCain, or Clinton, Bush, Obama, Romney or most of the more recent candidates for those jobs were either. Yet, and this was kind of amazing to me - people often praised someone like Palin because she was "better than" the opposing partys candidates who they thought were terrible....so - the New Greatness was for someone to be better than someone else, who was....terrible. Not much going on there, in my opinion. Guns - now, that's another one. Again - no fight intended here - but for illustration sake - so many Christians have cooked up a Jesus-centered platform for gun ownership and the ability to act both defensively and offensively....I've read ex Wayfers quoting Jesus about the deal with "buy a sword" instructions to His disciples, yet within a day we see Him tell them to put them down and in fact does not act offensively nor encourage His disciples to do so either. So, if nothing else, when push came to shove they may have been ready but were not ever actually instructed by Jesus to act. But - yeah, there's a big push amongst many ex Wayfers to have an arsenal, and some do have that feeling that's what Jesus would want....weird. To your point, a "spiritual" battle as described in Ephesians is not going to be won with guns, that's kind of the ultimate knife at a gun fight scenario. So if I were a spiritual-view conspiracy-nutter, I'd be looking elsewhere for arms. Me-I don't think God or Jesus care if we want to shoot each other to hell and back, they're going to let us do it. For now. I just would not drag them into it when we clearly are in an age when neither the Old Testament perspective nor the Coming Age reality is in place. We have both capacity and facility to do good and live right - or not. We may like to preach 'n' holler 'bout Jesus comin' back with a grenade launcher and He's gonna settle scores and take names - fine. That being the case then...in the meantime....can we maybe just kind of not make it worse? That's my take anyway - but sure, I think it requires a lot of care to not go off on every little fear and paranoia we have, nor on every great success and joy. Celebrate the good, learn from everything we can and live a peaceful life as much as I can. Outside of my own insulation-shielded subterranean communications center where I keep 5 years supply of food, water and Pampers, I don't worry 'bout nuttin'.

Old Skool, now we're getting nutty! "Are you aware that the 3 men who wrote the most scripture all participated in murders. Moses actually did one, David arranged one, and Paul enabled them. So much for moral superiority. God's ways are higher than our ways. So VP didn't represent God, huh?" This starts to get into what waysider opened up for discussion - and it's a discussion, right? One mans' conspiracy theory is anothers' morning news. Of those 3 Paul could be said to have "written" the "most" - of the N. T. as that's primarily a collection of his letters, "epistles" of his teaching. Moses - the bible itself states that Moses "wrote" scripture, the law and is considered the writer of the 5 books comprising the "Torah"....a significant contribution but he did not write "the most" of scripture - compared to anyone else, and anyone else like who....? No, that's not correct, and reads like a hoot'n'holler line from a teaching. David - is thought to have written or be the originator of some of Psalms. Nutty Theory #213: That Moses, David and Paul wrote the most scripture in the Bible. No. Split hairs - Collectively? Who cares and who knows? The argument as stated is too weak to support the idea of supporting or trashing "moral superiority". But it reveals a point I think - that the issue isn't really morality or it's recognition with you johniam, the issue is passing judgment, in this age of grace. We have to honor the judgments of God and the guidance of Jesus Christ - the life of Jesus says "see me, see the Father" - Jesus clearly did not allow His followers wiggle room, although he clearly forgave, taught, supported and "loved" His followers in the same way He taught. The issues with VPW were that he segmented himself from everyone else, separated his work from all others and allowed virtually no management or control over what he did or didn't choose to do, except for those he choose to recognize.....for some that could be a recipe for success - for him it turned into kind of a train wreck. It just did - his entire life's work and what he hoped to be a great movement of God's Word and outreach thereof became a ramshackle organization fighting amongst itself, and he sowed the seeds for that by building it the way he did. In fact it could be said that it wouldn't or couldn't have happened any other way than it did, looking back. This is more than saying today "well, at least we still have The Word he taught!".......I kind of hock up a lung when I hear people quote that line as it's too self serving to warrant consideration. We all must move on though and we have, like it or not the day is a new one. But I appreciate the patience of all to allow this sideline... Nuttiness - I think it may be less a quality of anything Way related and more just the way people are that embrace a dualistic view of life - where man sees one thing and believes that unseen forces and realities are at play, the "spiritual" and the "physical". Look at how the entire topic of "the Devil" has taken on such big hairy weird legs over the years. I see more of a hybrid duality - of two things being one, and thatsa storee for another a pizza!

You mean what comes out of a man's mouth is more revealing than what goes in? He told that rich young ruler who tried to flatter him by saying "good master" why call me good? Only God is good. ***************************************************************************************************************************************************************** Sure, we all make moral judgements. Like I said, some people are in authority over other people. If I'm in authority as a parent, boss, supervisor, or whatever, then I can apply whatever I personally think is moral to any situation I want, but that doesn't mean I'm always going to be right. ----- No, you're wriggling John, relax, it's not a hot seat. Jesus Christ clearly, without question and without variation said - these words - or something in His native language very close to them or at least has been quoted for 2000 years as having said this so if you don't like it complain to someone else please: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. So yes what comes out of a person's mouth - what they say and in fact what they do - is of greater significance because it indicates what he has processed, believes, perhaps even likes and now chooses to do. Jesus said that, bitch to Him, although I suspect He would just suggest you read it again until that is what comes out of you, instead of trying to match His words against Him, argue against His teaching, catch Him in His Words - same .... that people did then. Good job illustrating my point though,but honest, I didn't expect you to. :wink2:/>/>/> So quick. Of course not everyone is right. You aren't either, don't let that stop you from trying though - just because we're frail and prone to error as humans doesn't mean we can't be better, do better and enjoy God's blessings more. It's really an open/shut case - I just like to point it out from time to time. Wayfers and some exWayfers will get their dandruff in an uproar over it and guys like John Lynn will get bug eyed and grease on some more hair gel and another corny one liner to try and refute it. Can't help that, it's just the way it is.

I would add - the "wisdom of the world" thingie - doesn't it relate to Christ and God's plan through Christ. To this world:biglaugh:/> view where there is no God, no Christ, no sin, no up or down but whatever one wishes to make of it or figure it out to be this week - That's "foolish"....to refute the possiblity of a God so magnanimous that His creation would unfold and grow within a broader context that is not immediately 'seen"........... It's not a disdain for the world, we live here. We are charged to be caretakers, tenders, to replenish and cause it to flourish, with respect. It's on that part of man that removes God and His son Jesus Christ that's called "foolish". To that unrepentant mind, Christ is "foolish". Kills me how people take that and use it to shoot holes in whatever they don't like. Funny, really but very human (and we are that, very). I suspect Jesus liked a warm, quiet hillside, cool water on a hot day, hard work, good food, the sound of industry in the distance, even knowing that the very world that would reject Him would come to know God through what He was doing and going to do. Kinda cool to think about that. I'm going to go think about that.....peace!

Nuttiness? It's nutty to argue moral superiority not being either possible or right. Morals have to do with behavior - principles and belief in action. It's bad theology and I would say atrocious Christianity to ignore morality. It's opposite what Christ taught, that what goes into a man and what he does with it is more important than simply what goes in. Many things go in - what do we do with it? Christ exhorted a faith towards God and to follow Him. Peeling off morality judgments to avoid the inevitable pain of seeing reality for what it is removes an essential and fundamental step in understanding who we are and possibly why we do what we do. To say "because we're all in sin", we're all sinners, is a cop out. Of course we all are. Remember? Mercy and Grace - Mercy allows for the kind of atonement that man can perform, sacritices, rituals, offerings of value. When atonment is performed mercy can be applied. Grace is another step forward from that - God's mercy and atonment through Jesus Christ has then brought forth a "gift" to those who accept atonement and all that goes with it - grace. We aren't simply the recipients of mercy because something was done to atone for something, we are the reicpients of much more than that now - by God's grace. More has been given to us than what was atoned for, in other words. This is so basic I hesitate to even write it - it is Romans and Ephesians. :)/>/>/>/>It's impossible to "be" redeemed" without then accepting the gift of God's grace. Grace is the capacity of God to give more than what we deserve and are forgiven for. This puts us in a unique position to both change how we choose to live as well as accept what God has given. Again - it's basic bible stuff. A moral view of the world is essential. Without it we disconnect from who and what we "were" and what we "are" now and how that relates to God's creation, our place in it, our futures, etc. etc. Judgment .........................................................................................that's a different deal. Isn't it? And maybe that's what we struggle with - if we don't submit to begin with we won't want to stand judged - remembering it's through our submission to Christ's atonement that we can stand judged, and atoned. For. And stuff. Looking back people can see a David, how he did wrongful things to others and yet was described as a "man after God's own heart"....but forget that an atonment was required for his sins and it was David who had to then accept God's judgment and then change his behaviors and actions in order to be that "new man". Before that, the bible says that "the thing David had done displeased the Lord"............the ramiifications of his actions were as horrible as can be imagined. We are "new men" in Christ but morally we can ask ourselves the question - "do I live that new life, do I act like it?" without fear of falling into condemnation. Aspiring upwards into God's grace, we can. Or we can just keep living like we did in the past and act like it doesn't matter. That's not "grace" though. Had David done that he would not have been a "man after God's own heart". I am of the opinion no reasonable man or woman can refute this if they are a Christian. We may not like it, we may want to float in some ethereal world where we don't want to be judged by God's judgments or called out for being less than God would have us to be, nor see it in others - But it is the way it is - morals and judgment - and I find man does it anyway, even if he labels it something else to make himself feel better about it.:)/>/>/>

It's there, sitting like a duh-! :dance:/> There's a lot in the film version of 1967 that escaped the consciousness. I would not take the position of scrapping the doctrinal points verbatim because a great deal of it is in the Bible. And I'm sure Preach' here knows that many many of those who "took" PFAL didn't absorb it in it's entirety the first time. After a few dozen though it should be pretty well baked in, y'know?

Quack. This explains a LOT about the direction humanity is moving today in the U.S. Freedom of speech and agreement are two different things. No one's freedom of speech is impinged, infringed or otherwise impeded on or by GS. That is self evident or should be - the fact that your opinion showed up here Preacher, a response and reaction to both perceived and real difference of opinion - is proof that you were: 1. Free to speak 2. Spoke freely using the facility of GS. So - Your opinions are self perpetuated and self existing with or without the freedom to express them. You are free to produce them, have them and own them. They're yours. And you're clearly free to express them as you see fit. You did. I do find it hiLARIOUS that this thread is titled that. Secondly - your logic is askew, dear. You say that "you label me as someone who doesn't agree with you and therefore WRONG! " Aside from right or wrong I do know that what would make you either isn't the result of my agreeing or disagreeing with you. To disagree with you a 1,000 times over and 70 times that, would not make you right if you were wrong, or vice versa. * Agreement is a measurement. Think of it like a metric Preach'. Two things align to nn (some) degree. On face value that alignment doesn't produce a right or wrong value. Also - the fact that there's variance might be correct, in actual fact so if that's the case "disagreement" or agreement might be expected in certain things, in order to get to the correct result. * Agreement doesn't mean that two or more things are the "same thing" - a fuzzy area for The Way in the theology over the years - agreement can never mean that two things are the same because that's impossible - if they were they wouldn't be two things, they'd be one. Ephesians refers to that, in relation to two becoming one "flesh", man and woman, Christ and the Church, and is called a "deep mystery", a profound "truth" as it were. In that way to aspire to an agreement on what people do or act or think or opinion-ate on isn't realistic and may not even be worthy of something as weighty as 'truth". In other words - so what? we agree or disagree. The ongoing effort to learn and know the 'truth" is a more worthy effort. *On a practical level, in application, agreement of two people on a certain thought or idea (for instance) doesn't imply right/wrong values to that agreement - agreement is quantitative before it's qualitative - 2 + 2 = 4..........1 + 3 = 4. We have agreement in differences there but we have the same amount, "4", of.....something. What that is and if there's "agreement" in that something is a different thing, again. However would submit that Christian thought today often ignores the simple plain realities of life - that the totals, the results of many things can be arrived at using different methods. This is not a "worldly" or ungodly view either - it's seen in the history of the bible and God's workings with His creation and people. All points come together in Christ however - an interesting thing to ponder. * In regards to "truth" or "truths" as you call them, I think we should accept some ground rules - I don't think you or my own experience constitutes "truth" in a universal way, in a way that's repeatable and consistent in the way that something like even a natural law is considered. ("gravity" is the usual whipping boy here) ... I mention that because yours and my own experience with the Way, the people and even the Word that was involved in being taught and how we received it, doesn't constitute something that has to be agreed on in the same way we agree on "Truth"......reason: human agency. The delivery system wasn't perfect 100 per cent of the time or consistently reliable and repeatable - it changed from person to person and year to year. Same with the medium of the "class" on film and written in books. Those things are less subject to variation but what they actuall are and were don't constitute something that "has" to be 'truth" and therefore agree upon - * The material in PFAL - right or wrong? In your premise here it doesn't matter - not really. You can choose to believe it or not. Same as anyone else. Doesn't matter if we agree. Or that you disagree. Hmmm, what else. Those "Biblical truths" - I'm not clear on what's got your goat in a twitch - Wayfers are just like ex Wayfers who are just like everyone else - a dik is a dik, with or without the Word. I don't care how "right" you are, VPW hisself used to say "I don't care if it's the truth of God's Word, I wouldn't believe it"....in PFAL. Remember that? If not, go find where he says it and what he's talking about. He meant that if you're an a-hole about being right you're not going to get anywhere with people. that some things can be so right yet be so wrong. * He also meant that if he didn't like something or think it was right, he didn't care if it was "God's Word" - Funny that he expressed it that way, but most people didn't notice or were snoozing at that point anyway. But that's in "PFAF" as you titled it, which I assume is the same class Not to worry, I can't type worth a hoot either. Why is it important to you whether others agree with you or not? If you're sure of yourself and honest in your desire to help others, just do it. If I don't agree with it - big f-ing deal. Don't let that dissuade you. *

Drambuie and Ensure? Hmmmm, now that's some drinkin'!

Dual citizenship? Wow - that's a bargain - twice the a-ss-hole, for the cost of one.

Where is that exactly? Carrying his own pee bag around on a hose? Living like a ho' off other's dollars? The thing about people who are really mean though is that being mean will bring a person to boil and to do things others wouldn't - faster and more forcefully. Where one person might try to defend themselves a mean vindictive hateful person will just cut you and leave you to bleed out, without blinking. That's Geer. But hey, watch he doesn't slosh his urine on you, yeah.

Hello all! This has bounced back up again - and Shaz was correct on this. (any decent lawyer could build a case for the opposition though and probably squeak it out, given time and money). Frankly though - who cares? The Way Nash doesn't - they really only dig their heels in when they feel like it or it conflicts with something they have interest in. People who ascribe to PFAL and want to see it back in force would support it's use by anyone, even the vile scoundrels at the Way who live to hose the innocent and whose very existence is an insult to people of honor and dignity everywhere. Which is why they'll never be able to fully stop re use of PFAL in it's pirated forms. They're too busy being benign and characteristically religious and church like in their behavior. They need to get some years between them and Craig before they can double back. That gives the white-hairs there now some time to lounge. But I digress - the spirit of Copyright law left on the last train out for the coast a long time ago. Had a bad hangover. Ex Wayfers on a mighty spiritual crusade will do what they will just as most of mankind usually does to rationalize their ownership of anything they really want, just like the rest of the "unbelieving" world do. Dat. Same crap, relabeled. My advice - wuddevah. If I had a rats asz I didn't really need I'd probably give it but they're getting few and far between. These people will do whatever they want with whatever they want - fine. Everyone's fees and donations who took PFAL in it's day paid for free access to it, forever, in perpetuity and for the rest of their lives - WHEN IT WAS OFFERED by the Way Nash. It didn't make that specific rendering of the PFAL class by VPW accessible to anyone anytime they ever wanted it, at their own request or insistence. The information, sure. The books, sure. But the spirit of truth, justice, the American way and speeding bullets should tell any idiot that if you take something that someone else produced, manufactured, wrote, built or otherwise brought into being - it's theirs. That's why you took it - they had it and you wanted it. On higher spiritual levels where doves cry and Wayfers postulate on the significance of the number 3 more than they do on the number of sick people they've healed in the last year , all bets are off and you better watch your panties if you get on their radar because if they like them, they'll figure out a rationale that says they are theirs and not yours. Really.

"telling your story" - vital, Twinky. I pick up from some local congregations that there's always a lot of buzz around whatever the hot topic is that month, what so and so is saying about who's going to hell, no one's going to hell, we're all going to hell - that was big last couple years. Love, God is love, what's that mean, who's not being loved, etc. etc. etc. There's a lot of dust ups around the latest pastor who's gone viral with a book or a message. There's some guy who's got a church that's big on the male role, it's a kind of uber-steak church for manly men - I forget the name of it. The pastor passes out advice like nickels and has a lot of answers for "today's" christian families. He seems mostly full of it, including himself. A lot of it is based on pastors moving outside of their real areas of strength and trying to forge doctrinal platforms, ad hoc, directly from the bible - so it's always in the "Word" but lacks depth. They might mean well in the beginning but they fall back to "God's Word" being the source and special revelations and such when challenged and end up building something else than that church of Christ. Water under that bridge is non stop I guess. Same old same old. Maybe we're just getting too old - not enough time left perhaps to waste on second rate maybe's and who's not going to hell, this week. To me - that stuff isn't the driver that the goodness of God and the living Christ is. The gospels are a story, retold and written for our benefit. The written word speaks an inspired message that God wants us to have. Our lives today speak an inspired living message that God wants us to share. We can't share what we don't already have. We can point the way, lead others to - and the single most significant thing we have to offer is our own lives, our story - what God is for us, Christ for us, what this all means and has meant - to us. I just see it as an attitude.When I walk into a store - which I don't like to do to begin with - I just look around at the people as I go about my bizness. People are fascinating, sometimes it's just nearly overwhelming what's going on in the normal daily life of a any one of us. To even get a sense of that and be ready and willing to help - just that - to help, if you can...what's better than that. I hate shopping for the most part but that gives me a nudge to be there if I have to. Amidst all the chaos are streams of life wafting through - just a helping hand, a 'you go first' , any act of kindness can be the entry into another person's world where Christ needs to be. I'd be nuts to withhold good when it's in my hand to do. What's better than that? I agree, many feel awkward speaking about Christ and God and the bible and stuff - it's a good exercise to go through and kind of re think and retell our own "stories" - and let the truth of what we really believe level set our lives and consciousness. It makes it easier to do stuff I think. To add - it's easier living in a country where no one's going to jail or kill me for my faith. I pray for the world that's outside my own and am very thankful I have the freedom I do. We're getting "killed softly" though in the US in ways however - I understand why people are afraid to speak about certain things I guess, when you can't sneeze and get a "God bless you" without someone complaining. (personal grudge - people 100 feet away shouting "God Bless YOU!" at the slightest sound of a sneeze, all the worse if you have several in a row - c'mon, God blessed me I get it, thanks).....but Christians have this tainted odor of being biased and prejudiced and some of it for good reason - But I see no reason why I must with hold the daily recognitions of my faith that are meaningful to me and to others and that mean good to others not harm, so that someone who doesn't like it can feel satisfied. I'm happy to let others celebrate theirs, as I am mine. I suspect the atmosphere in society can be difficult for some people, it is for me sometimes.

I keep in touch with some people that are still active in the Way, see them or communicate few times a year. Great people. I have fairly clear cut views on certain things and if we were to discuss those things there might be agreement or disagreement. I usually stay out of what's going on "now" because as far as the Way itself goes, I don't really care what's going on now. I visit their website or go off on them here but I have the same care and concern for them I would anyone else. I don't consider the existing Way Nash a remnant of anything, just the echoes of a distant past for those who remember it. The Way that's there now is not The Way that was envisioned by me or what I was working towards. Whatever they are now, really are, I'm not involved with them so it's not my concern. They don't affect me or mine - now. So it's not a really big deal. I care about my friends though and would be happy to discuss anything that's relevant to their lives, their concerns, families, etc. I can be extremely blunt and anyone that knows me knows that but that's not the "real me". For GS, it's a write/read medium so I use hyperbole and overstatement to make my points clear. When I say "I don't like something" I want it clear that I don't care whether my reasons convince anyone else, my conclusions are what they are, period. Have they "changed"? Couldn't tell you. If Rivenbark's still running it I would assume for very good reason that it's about like chockfull states. People involved with the Way now can be very happy though because if they're living honestly and according to their faith they're no better or worse off than anyone else. How honestly does anyone really live, in their heart, at their best? I'm not that judge to say. As for the influence of the Way, the further you are from their control the better. And for reasons chockfull states they have to be careful now that they realize they have to obey the law and must remain within the parameters of their state, county and city/village laws.

That's great news Kit. I'm really sorry for your loss. Really really wish you the best of all things, all the time. Sounds like you're getting along. Take good care of yourself!