socks

What the Hay, I absolutely do not believe that if I was quoting from another source that it would be difficult to decide if I needed to specifically credit the original author for any statements that I know came from, or were based on his writings. That's where we differ I think. The difference is in 2 instances -1) specific sections of text and phrases that were written by authors that I would use word for word or with a few words changed and 2) pieces of others work that form the basis for my own work. In 1) my point is a matter of personal honesty. If the law examined it and said "you're 2 words under the legal limit, it's different enough, you don't have to credit them", it wouldn't change the fact if I'd read and learned from that original author and used their words and ideas to do my own work. Morally the burden would still fall to credit them. I could squeez that, juggle my way out of it, but I'd know the right thing to do whether I did it or not. 2) is easier to see. If 2 people developed the same material independent of each other, that's one thing. VPW eluded to that with Bullinger, but not with others. He said that he was introduced to Bullinger by someone else who told him he reminded them of Bullinger. Then we see some sections, like 4 crucified, that are similar to Bullinger. So we have an explanation of sorts for similarities if the two have unexplained or uncredited work that's the same. VPW used Bullinger as a reference for figures of speech and grammar in his teachings to the Way Corps. The Bullinger Companion Bible was sold in the bookstore. VPW owned other of Bullingers books, that he brought out when I was in the Way Corps. In PFAL itself though the connection is made but it's vague outside of figures of speech where he says Bullinger is the person he knows who's done the most work on them. My impression of that topic when we studied it in the Corps was that VPW has some knowledge of them and a sense that the bible needed to be interpreted in light of them before he read Bullinger but it was Bullinger who gave him the massive reference to study with and work with. If a person continued being exposed to Way teachings and classes they would hear more about Bullinger though and see the connections to specific parts, especially where Bullinger was used as a reference for translation of words and grammar, figured, structure, etc. In the Corps VPW used structure frequently in presentations, and often referred to Bullinger where he differed from his structures. Structure helped VPW in his understanding the contextual logic of the bible. Again, he said he has seen this in his own study but it was Bullinger's work that helped him to "put it all together". Bullinger's books were presented in a form that allowed them to be used as a reference. He had exhaustive referencing, footnotes and cross referencing in the material itself. I think that speaks to the value of working that way. Look at what it allowed VPW to do and others like us later. In the holy spirit sections of PFAL we don't have any specific references to others classes or material in relation to the written sections or the spoken sections in PFAL. The reader or student is led to think that work is VPW's own. So if we see pieces of VPW's work that occur in other's books and classes that VPW said he was exposed to it's a simple connection to make - he read those books, took those classes and now we see sections that are similar. It doesn't take a genius or a lawyer to see what's happened. But a genius or a lawyer could turn it enough ways to squeeze it. That wouldn't change the obvious facts though. IMO VPW's statement that he "put together" and took from others and "put it all together" is a convoluted way of saying that he used others material and his own and came up with his own product and results. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how work gets done. At that point the simple honest thing to do is to give credit where credit is due in a way that lets the reader know what's going on. He obviously felt that his own work made a signficant contribution to the end result. He felt ownership of his own work and seemed to have felt he discovered threads of thought in the bible that were scattered throughout the writings of other people as well as parts that had been hidden or lost. That's fine. But there's a vagueness to his attitude about crediting those people involved that makes it seem like there's something going on. The question is "why wouldn't he?" rather than he didn't need to. 21 years of time in the Way told me that while VPW had some of his own ideas and work he also had been inspired by and used the work of many others. When you go back and look at the original stuff-PFAL and the Holy Spirit book you can see that. He would have been much better off to have set the record straight in the source material rather than a scattering of statements and stories in other media over many years. Make it plain, make it simple. It would be the most honest thing to do. Today there'd be no question if he had. And the questions don't come up from a few ne'er do wells, based on 3rd hand stories. They've always been there.

Hey Plot, good to see you, if under difficult circumstances. I know what happens when we die. We learn what happens next the only way we really learn anything. We do it. Some things I don't want to learn and the idea of this poor world trying to carry on without me is disturbing to say the least. Who will be me? Did I leave enough of what I was here to spread around and do some good? Or will it be "good riddance"? Josie sounds like she's leaving the best part of her to be enjoyed and carried on by those who will most appreciate it and spread it around even further. Love, in transition brother.

#4 - I sent a PT to Linda Z that's in silent running mode, the followup to a failed email attempt titled "Trail of Tears, Bridge of S-Eyes". :)-->

I just posted on Krys's thread my recommendation for how to handle hackers, Galen. I'm sure it would fly given a little nudge by the consumer community. Once convicted of their heinous crimes they will be given a chance to rehabilitate themselves. They'll be taken out to sea, 20 miles out, and tossed overboard with all of their program disks duct taped together to use as a flotation device. All they have to do is swim back to land and they'll be free to go their way. I think it would be a simple but effective way to address the problem.

Nother thing, I've been running the MS Anti Spyware too, they have a free beta download you can getHERE. It doesn't solve everything but it does alert you to suspicious activity. The little windows get kind of annoying when they come up but when they do it it's interesting to see what's going on. Check it out. You can also run scan and clean out stuff that's in their library of spyware. One day the law will deal appropriately with spyware programmers and hackers. Once convicted of their heinous crimes they will be given a chance to rehabilitate themselves. They'll be taken out to sea, 20 miles out, and tossed overboard with all of their program disks duct taped together to use as a flotation device. All they have to do is swim back to land and they'll be free to go their way. I think it would be a simple but effective way to address the problem.

Hi Krys. :)--> I checked out that router online and found these security specifications online- Security Features * Wireless security features include: o Wi-Fi® Protected Access (WPA) with Temporal Key Integrity Protocol (TKIP) or Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) o Legacy 64-bit and 128-bit Wired Equivalency Privacy (WEP) encryption o 802.1X access control * Connect remotely through a Virtual Private Network (VPN) with Internet Protocol Security (IPSec) and Point-to-Point Tunneling Protocol (PPTP) * Robust parental controls for regulating access to the Internet sites and time schedules for your children * IP and MAC Address Filtering ---- Sounds like a good setup. Once it's set up it should do the trick. I've got a Linksys wireless set up between 2 computers the same way. There should be some disks that come with it. When you install it the wizards will probably give you help instructions as to the choices.

"belllleeeeeeeevein uh lAWV!" sounds like a wargle.

Thanks Belle, I think the look says "Please don't scratch, please don't scratch, please don't scratch!" :D--> I hesitate to put it up but figured what the heck. It's nice to see that much hair on my head as my current battalion of soldiers have taken some hits these last years, and although they can skirmish with the best of them some good men have been lost. (head down in respectful silence, those in back shield your eyes from the glare :D--> ). Proud ones they were, and will always be remembered for fighting the Good Fight to their last breath. Satori, they were big honking things alright. But if you're gonna ride the dragonfly you need wind! The one I had was gray-blue, with silver knobs seems like. I think I couldn't keep the payments on that honker and moved over to a Fender Deluxe, a sweet little amp then and still. Ha! Probably jardinero. Patches, and patches on the patches. It was a '60s' thing I think. Disco flares hadn't hit yet :D--> But they were clean.

:D--> I'm trying to get the right Cher growl- "doo uh you beLIEVE in lawv do you beLIEVE" :D--> But Mike's gotta give us the insight in to the love thing while we sing. Are we seeing it, thinking it, feeling it? Turn on your love meter and give us a reading. No, not that kind of reading, the farenheits!

mstar, you're my idol! A j with Muddy Waters?! Did he hotbox? :D--> I'm doing a flashback here, with the photos and the smoke. mj's a guitar player. I will pass this on, then, from 1971 then, Wichita, KS. socks plays pool. Or did, at one time.

Health to all. Here's ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE on the good heart of the Pope.

I love that dirty water, Boston you're my home. Well, not really but a COOL song. Sidnote, there was an amplifier brand named Standell, no connection to the band. I had one the size of trunk with a speaker bottom, 4 X 12, the whole thing was about 6 feet high. I was about 16 or so at that time and when my band would play I loved to stand in front of it on "10" and FEEL the music. Oddly, my hearing is still very good. Linda Z, great photo. You look so sweet. Thanks for putting that up.

Not sure for a fact Raf, but these prices changed quite a bit over the years, so there's going to be different answers to it. In 1968 PFAL was offered 2 ways- 25.00 for PFAL with the syllabus 50.00 for PFAL with the syllabus and "the books" which included PFAL, RTHST, and a bundle of collaterals, about 35-40 little pocket size pamphlets and a couple larger ones, "The Church", "Christians Should be Prosperous". Books in the 60's ran about 5 bucks each. Overall the cost of 25.00 for the whole set was a pretty good buy. But I don't know what they actually cost to make. The volume wasn't that high compared to later years so I'd bet it wasn't as cheap as it could be, but I don't know for sure. But the value at that time was a good one, IMO. Buying them separate, dunno. I found some price lists awhile back in a file folder believe it or not. Not sure what I did with them.

So is it After all these years of not thinking about love, it's good to be thinking about it, or After all these years of not thinking about love it's good for you to be thinking about it, or After all these years of not thinking about love it's good for me to be thinking about it, or After all these years of not thinking about love, it's good to see thinking about it, or After all these years of not thinking it's good to be seeing, or After all these years of seeing it's not loving to be thinking or All of the above or None of the above or Some of the above or Some combination of the above with something else, such as: **snap snap** fill in here, this space open *snap snap*

*snap snap* Someday you're not gonna remember this stuff *snap snap* so write eet down. You got that? *snap snap*

Thank you! I'm checking it now. :)--> That may be cause to have your head examined, though. :D-->

Mike, I hear you. Good times, good people, fellowshipping around the way, truth and life, Jesus Christ. LIfe has been good. Pretty weird and bad at times but good too. You and I don't agree on everything, probably more than it appears within these discussions though I'd bet. But as human beings on the planet, we have everything in common. I have a lot in common with these people in Florida. And even those weasals in New Knoxville. Try as I might want to distance myself there is a common thread between us all, and even a clearer one if I'm to try and think like a Christian's taught to by Jesus Christ, although the lines of demarcation are just as clear too. For years I tried to be what I thought I should be, caring, loving, all that stuff. A lot of the time I thought it was because of my effort. And it was to a degree, I did my best I guess. But when I left the formal structure of the Way I didn't have any pressure on me to be anything but a father and a husband and that's where I started from, Day 1. There was no way to get 15 years down the line without getting through that first day. Then the next. And the next. I've posted many times on the incredible force love has been all my life between my family and I. That's where I started because that I knew was right and good and would be a foundation for God in my life and whatever came next. If I couldn't get that right, what good's the rest of it? If that's what I have to show for all my years, that's fine. But there was more beyond that, the force of love did it's job, and confirmed what I'd known all along - that there is a God and I can kind of relax a little and let it flow with Him. Most of the things in my life that I really value today haven't been the things I took in hand and made the way I wanted them, they're the things that came back to me or happened while I was doing that stuff. "Life happened while I was making other plans", to paraphrase. I love to see life happening te way it does, I'm always being surprised by what's around the next bend. I don't want those hamsters in New Knoxville to do anything because I told them it was right to do and if they did I wouldn't want to take credit for it. I'd rather see that light go off in their heads just once and realize in their own hearts what's what. When they do it won't be something someone told them was right, it will be as real as their face and it will be something that no one will ever be able to take away from them. But if it never does, to me - that's their business. I stay out of it, if it comes to me to do something I'd be happy too but I'm probably not going to be the one to do that. If our paths cross down the line, fine. If not, fine. Maybe something will cause that light to go off for them. If so, I'll be happy for everyone. I'd rather see that than see their lives wasted the way they're going.

Tell him it's very nice, has a clean, cool look.

Belle, I agree, to my eyes it's marginal. Plus, it just sounds cheesey. It begs the question - what if they're CHEAP counsellors or therapists. Then is it okay? It just has that Pokey from Fanoaky ring to it - "well, you don't need none o' yore uptown citified group-hug, warm n fuzzy couns-u-lerz...you just need to sit here down and take this here thing a mah jig and saaahn it right thar, on that there dotted line. Here, you can use mah crayon...and listen to this'n here class what'll get yer mind right real kwik.........say, is that yore sister, she shore is perdy......" It's bad advice. Granted, there's good to be gotten from biblical instruction and fellowship. People can be helped, or at least I think so, especially if they're not being beaten over the head with teachings about ice ages and treatment that wouldn't do a dog justice. But presenting WAP as a first choice alternative to professional help is really really marginal, IMO. It's implied, clearly, on the web site statements about it. "you won't need that stuff if you take this"........................next thing, after taking it, if someone still says they need it, or continues to have similar problems as before WAP the WAP-pers have to defend the class and the teaching....."the class did it's part, you're just not ACTING on what you learned! say, is that your sister, she sure is perdy!" They should reword it. "We think this class can help people everywhere, in many areas of life. Say, is that your brother, he sure is perdy!"

Good for them, Mike. It will make their membership happier and healthier if they do. Historically the way to change the Way is to leave the Way and do whatever it is you've got in mind. In fact, an abstract images of the Way could actually be formed to include all the leavers with the TWI Believers. If you did that you'd get a totally new image of what it is. Not so much the way some of the splinter groups do where they say "we're doing it the way it should be done and the way VPW did it" but as a totally different and new image. I think the bible calls it the body of Christ. Ya got yer southern belles and yer whacky uncles and aunts up in the nor'east. Those cuzzin's in the southwest. Never see those guys but hear they're still eating spicey food. :D--> Shoot, I got long lost relatives in China I've never even met before. Get on board the Love Train! :D--> You don't need no ticket, but ya gotta hit the snack car first, it ROCKS!

I think you're right Wordwolf. What I'd like to see is something that would indicate a healthy change on the part of the humans. On a real level it's a non-issue. I feel for them but they're happy or so they say. It's their decision to make. Barring some major change the Way Nash as a corporate dinosaur is going to swing it's big tail slowly if at all and likely only when their hungry or their belly's growlin. But actually the change to the organization could happen from the "outside" beleivers, rather than the inside of the BOT run mafia. Right now The Face of the Way is painted with the makeup New Knoxville puts on it. But the face of the people is always different than the corporate image. One is based on what the primary stockholders (BOT) want, and serving their goals. The other is the rank and file membership and employees. Look at GS - so many people, so many perspectives and experiences, same corporate Way International everyone was exposed to at one time or another. Despite TWI's most ardent efforts it wasn't been able to control every member's thoughts, perceptions, questions and decisions while they were "in" and those are reflected now by the posters here. The Way Nash hasn't changed all that much, but life isn't over yet for those birds. A little change goes a long way. The internet is only one media form and there's average people who don't use it at all. Figure, a separete site on the internet is a start in an organization that's so controlling, even if it's being controlled behind the scenes by corporate approval policies, spoken or assumed. Somewhere, there's got to be people in the Way who have, or will have, family homepages, personal hobby sites, personal sites, professional sites, who will use it as a means to articulate their own hearts, messages, interests, goals, plans, etc. In the context of their Way involved lives. In other words, what they're really all about and what they really believe and aspire to. That's the stuff that will ooze out, sooner or later and one way or another. If there's a breath of life at all in there, it will show it's happy little face and once that starts to cycle through and around good things can happen. Maybe. Hope springs eternal. I have no vested interest either way other than as a former particpant I know that life goes and grows. I'm not where I thought I would be, 25 years ago. Reality is sweet. They can do whatever they want, I'm just an observer. It's just one thing but hey, with our scintillating commentary and suggestions how can they not at least get an idea or two? :D-->

I hear ya Wordwolf, thanks. So you figure it's reworded regurg stuff. Well, I hope they don't think I'm calling them stupid, but really, whoever's putting up this fish wrap should pretend someone reading it might not know anything about what they're talking about and would need a simple, direct writeup instead of some cheesey comeon. So you figure it's redribbled Present Advertising? Yeccch. That's a wet kiss I don't want. I'll take a cheek muwha! please, no more. It's a drag. It would be great if some normal Wayfer would put, in their own words, what the WAP class and the Way is all about instead of acting like they're tap dancing on thin ice over the whole thing. It reeks of dishonesty. "What's the WAP class all about? You'll get practical teaching that will really help you practically, in practical matters. Like the Ice Age. Ever wonder where all that ice really came from?".... "Uh.....no". "Well, it's in the class! so you'll have that question answered! Isn't that great! Can I save you a seat?" "No. Tell me again, what's this class about?" "Well, you have to take it to really find out. Would you like to come to a meeting that would tell you all about it?" "No, could you just tell me more about it? How will it help my family situation?" "Oh, by helping you to defeat your personal adversary! It's great, would you like me to pick you up?" "No, what's a personal...never mind. Just tell me what it's all about. You say it will answer all my questions about the bible. I don't have any, I'm Catholic. What's a bible anyway?" "Oh! yes, all your bible questions WILL be answered, especially the Catholic ones, and you'll be amazed at how much it answers them, and really well too. Can I put your name down?" "No. No, you can't. I said I don't really have any...never mind. I have to go." "Oh yes! Okay, I'll call you then. I know you'll like it". A personal adversary... as opposed to an impersonal adversary? What's that, one that wants to beat me up but doesn't want to kiss me first? The whole thing makes me dizzy. I need some Pent Up Water, or at least a 7 Up.

;)--> John, our kids could sleep, snore and have the snoring transcribed and it would read better in print. :D--> That's some sorry stuff, and I don't say that to insult anyone, just calling it like I see it. There's GOT to be more in that class that would make it an interesting read. Guess not. It must have taken some serious hiney kissing, I mean some real chapped lips, for the Way Staff to buy in to oohing and aahing over that class if that's all they can say for it. Speaking of kids, do yours have Improved B.S. Meters? Our kids have New Improved Detectors or so it seems. They pick up very quickly on stuff, people.

You gotta read the page on the Way of Abundance and Power class. It's the "successor" to the original PFAL class according to the writer and is tailored to current issues. I'm going to do a combo comment and quote from that site's page so I hope no one there gets their undies in a bunch. Per the site's claims the WAP class is useful and "you don't need expensive counselors" with the class to teach you how to live one day at a time and get control of your life. Note to writer - that's like saying it will teach you how to breathe one breath at a time. It's the only way you can. Now I'm curious if any grads here can name some of the things in it that stand up to that claim. And I have to quote this: "You don't need family counseling when you know how to build and maintain a strong family, daily winning the spiritual competition by defeating your personal adversary." This is the kind of run on sentence that would make the WAP class teacher proud. The words could have been used to actually state why a person taking it won't "need family counseling". Saying that indicates it's part of the value. Strangest of all is this statement: The class addresses such practical and current issues as the creation of the heavens versus the "big bang theory" and the cause of the ice age. When did the creation of the heavens become a practical issue? Since when did the cause of the ice age become a practical issue? Or something that needs a new class to answer it? Is this one of the things that will help people not need family counselling, by putting a stop to all those fierce dinner time debates over the ice age? When most people say "practical" they think well, practical-duh, not pie-in-the-sky theological deal-breakers. If this is the stuff that's the really good stuff from the WAP class, it sounds useless. Of course, once a person finds out how the Teacher was really living during the time he was preparing all this heavy material anyone in their right mind would have to question his ability to make clear useful judgements on family, moral or ethical issues. Ice Age stuff, go for it, knock yourself out Teach. But stay out of anything that might have to do with my wife or daughter. Is this a copy/paste from a Way brochure, anyone know? Last, the question of the day is asked: How can you not live a victorious life when you know your rights and privileges as God's son? Easy. By sitting in an interminably boring and impractical class that's more concerned about the ice age than real, honest issues that real people that could use real help would like some help with.

Yup, Kryilis, it would definitely spice them up! I'm pretty much sold on it, just have to figure the budget out. Right now it's the only product I know of doing it. If another comes out maybe there will be a price competition. :D-->