socks

Underyling to the topic of debt is need, what a person needs that they have to borrow for. Is it a sin to be needy? To have a need, something that hasn't been "met". Is that a sin? The Way teaches that yes, in essence, it is. Due to lack of or wrong believing a person not having the "abundant life" in any category isn't "walking" in the knowledge and power they should be. They're "broken fellowship" in that area causes need, when and where that person denies or doesn't know God's will and doesn't act on it with "believing action". If you're not taking positive believing action, what's left? NEGative believing action. Bingo. You're about as close to "sin" as the Way can get. Or so they teach if you actually think about it. But the question to the bible would still be, is it a sin to have a need? Is it a sin to be "poor"? The answer is clearly no, with a caveat that obviously certain kinds of behavior could lead to poverty and that behavior could be wrong. But God allows for the fact that there will always be poor amongst the nation of Israel, people at times who have "need". The response isn't a flat swooping cut of the knife of reproof - "They're not believing! I won't spit in their direction let alone provide for them!" That would only produce a cycle of failure. Which is exactly what the Way's hard hearted attitudes produce over the long haul, over the years. Rather the O.T. instructions allow for GIVING, the flip side of debt. If, in a society of God's people, GIVING was done correctly, debt would be less of an issue. To focus on "debt" in the bible without looking at "giving" is going to be incomplete. This is what bugs me about the Way Nash's policies and has for many years. They're wrong in how they conduct their ministry business in that they take IN finances and BUILD with those finances, but they don't GIVE out as an organization. The basic classes - PFAL, WAP, SQWAP, or whatever else they have now, all cost money. You have to pay to learn that which is supposedly absolutely essential for you to have a successful "Christian" life. "I have a jack, but I'm not going to help you!" "Unless you pay me for it". That's the Way's policy, plain and simple. Money sucking tics, for want of a better description.

No Wordwolf, I see that too. It's stupid because as igotout suggests to Bobanon, "do the math". :D--> Bobbed really does need to study the bible and learn what it says with all this research (or as he says let someone else do it and tell him so he can then decide based on their teaching - typical Way thinking) because he makes this completely uninformed assertion- Our ministry acknowledges that borrowing takes place and it is talked about in the old testament. We further acknowledge that the commerce practices and trade practices of antiquity up until today are time-tested and universally accepted. Bob should read Deut. 15 then and decide if it's universally accepted. Every 7th year Israel was instructed to forgive outstanding debt to one another, amounting to: -cancellation of debts between Israelites every seventh year -looking after the poor in the community and lending freely to them God in Deuteronomy makes the recognition that there will always be "poor" or needy people in the nation and that it's the responsibility of the "rich" or those who have the ability, to help them. To say that these O.T. instructions are universally accepted is nuts. They're not. God also gives his attitude about "usury", heavy interest rates over and above the value of that which is loaned. That instruction isn't universally accepted, at all, anywhere. There is both instruction and RESPONSIBILITY involved, something the Way doesn't like to have or take. They're happy to play bible research, for years and in the mean time shoot from the hip with so-called policies and suggestions without any solid instruction they're willing to publish or commit to but they won't themselves put together a comprehensive approach to their so-called "prevailing word" society of Way believers. They pick and choose, react, respond, defend, from a position of weakness because they don't know what they're talking about. It's absolutely unbeeeee leavable to me that someone who's been hanging around the Way as long as Bob has, in his positions over the years, can't speak with some clear knowledge without hedging his statements. When's he going to get serious?

Belle, your Dad's a smart man. There's one good reason I can think of now, a quote from that great philosopher Dirty Harry Callahan, speaking to his new sidekick in the movie Magnum Force. After being suspended by his boss, for being right, he says: "Besides being stupid, they're just plain wrong".

Thanks for posting that Belle. There's really quite a bit of information in your two emails and a lot to chew on for Wayfers and ex-Wayfers still working through this topic. I will say this - Bob is being civil in his responses and perfectly illustrates Way leadership mentality - if they think you're "with them" and following and contributing they communicate one way - if they become even a li-itle bit suspicious over anything, even the most inocuous or ill informed impression, they tend to turn on you with extreme prejudice. But this caught my eye right off: He's saying of course that they've taken a position before really having a solid biblical foundation for it. And the stuff about 2 years of business when he was what - a teenager? and the switch to math - I'm alarmed that Bob would have to go that far back to pull out some credible background on his credentials. But what's he saying - that math is more godly than business? That Bob doesn't like to deal with things that can't be controlled like numbers? I dunno, he sounds mixed up to bring those things in to the discussion he was having. sooooooo....When did the Way, a biblical REASEARCH and TEACHING ministry start taking positions on matters like this, of extreme personal impact on their congregants - without really knowing what they're talking about? It's nice - seemingly - that Bobaroo recognizes your DAD's authority but he dismisses the fact that his authority is unstable. Weird. Almost as weird as why the Way would be getting so involved in it's member's personal affairs anyway that it would make hard fast recommendations about something like personal home ownership. They act like it's their right to do so. It's not. Bobazon doesn't have to worry about all these financial matters and everyone knows why. He can "afford" to be free with advise. Lots to think about there. Thanks!

Religion is like a tax. Have you paid the iRs?

And to you! "T?o chro?stigh ionat" (my heart, within you) Was listening to Dougie Maclean earlier, some very nice Celtic music. His song "All Together" is on. :)--> We are united now within these ancient wheels we are united in the spirit of the music at our heels on reflection we rebuild and we restore we are as mother nature's children as we dance around the floor All together, all as one all together relentlessly we're dancing on We are invisible upon these dancing feet we're shape and shadowless revolving to the one eternal beat with hearts connected we will turn the other round we are as mother nature's children as we dance upon the ground We'll stay forever here within these timeless walls we'll stay forever here no matter how the turning silver falls exhilarated we have seen this place before we are as mother nature's children as we dance around the floor. All together, all as one all together relentlessly we're dancing on.

A file of fitted shoes.

Thanks Laleo. It was intended to be, mostly. ;)--> I do agree with you, just from a purely honest standpoint. Like you I don't care all that much what JAL does, or doesn't do, or who he does, or doesn't do. It's his bidness. I consider him a friend, but haven't seen him in years. It's just weird, if you know even a little bit how that Old Time Way Thinking goes....the "sidelines" comment, the cha-cha about false rumors, which sound exactly like the Sterling Truth That Falls From the Pen of He Who Posted. Y'know, whaddya gonna do? :P--> I guess some people, you could ask them what day it was and not get a straight answer. It'd be Thursday and you'd end up thinking it was Saturday by their answer. Such are the ways of the world.

Read John's new book "Will the Real Me Please Stop Leaving?", on sale now at the CBC website, "Christians Bankrolling Christians". Support their wonderful work. I will now pronounce my views on this important and timely topic ( ahem ) Who gives a f@#! ? Actually, that's John Lynn's response, if he had the guts. "Why do you give a f@#! ?" I can see why it's of interest to some people, but not me. It's none of my business. I don't mean that in some quaz-eye-spiritual tone, as in "it's not my business to be involved in John Lynn's affairs, metaphorically speaking unless I was a woman and actually involved in one or more of his affairs in which case it would be my affair. Pretty much. But sprit'lly, tain't none of my bizness". I mean it as in, it's his life, if he needs help he can call me personally and get some of my fresh, valuable help, or buy my new book titled "I Know the Real You And Buying This Book Will Help". I mean, come on. It's been how many years now since he left the Way and he's still hanging around with the same people? John, get some new friends. I can help, buy my book "How to Get Friends and Influence People That the Real You Will Like". It's great. Really. That's all I had to say, and I'm sure it's going to open some eyes, shake some trees and possibly push some buttons. But that's what I do, I shake things up, I'm a mover and a shaker. Email me if you'd like to have a real personal upfront did I say personal? conversation with the Real Me. That's right, you can actually share an email with me and I'll respond in a manner, suitable for framing. You lucky dawgs you!

I'm tired of self-serving career geeks kicking all over the people I remember who gave so much seeking little more than the opportunity to help others, and for no pay and no recognition in the end. Not a one of any of us who tried is receiving a pension from the Way. I wasn't doing it for that. But you know where the pay off comes from? Because I know what I was trying to do and what I did. And the people I interacted with know me, what I did and the kind of person I was, warts and all. I know and if there is a God so does He. In the end what anyone else but my wife and family think of me isn't that important to me. I don't need the credit, I need the Life. And I've got it and those I personally had the honor to work with and who helped me are those to whom I myself will honor in my heart till the day I die and beyond, forever. That anyone didn't have the opportunity to have that same experience, I regret but I can't change the past.

Yes and now that you, on your thread, insist on using 'corpse' and such a weak excuse as not being the only one, and on top of that 'hmmm' you've pretty much made yourself clear. "Totally out of control" hardly describes the people I'm thinking of. No one said you were the ONLY one. You're just the only one here that seems to insist on acting consistent with the same tight assed, prissy corpse attitude you criticize. If you can't see the insult, you may be too calloused to discuss it with, too willing to hold to your view and no willingness to expand your own knowledge past what you choose to hold to. Which is weird, because it's so inconsistent with the revolution of new information that PFAL promised to so many people. It reminds me of how so many PFAL grads chose to make it their new religion, every bit as calloused and hard as the religions they claimed to be set free from.

I don't blame PFAL for anything the Way Corps did, PFAL has it's own burdens, as does it's teacher. Your problems with the Way Corpse as you always call them Galen, is one thing, and your opinion to reflect. You just come off whiney, to me. You admit you didn't know very many but the ones you did, didn't do much good you say. I knew 100's of people that went through the Way Corps program, and over a period of about 7 years travelled to every state in the U.S. and every major city at least once, many 2-3 times or more. I met a lot of good people in the Way Corps program. Smart, intelligent, caring, loving, hard working people who were sorting out and trying to realize their desire to live an honest life serving God. Most of the ones I knew were good people, who did good work, to help others and to fulfill what they considered their "careers", to serve God's people and follow their hearts towards God as best they could. You followed your career goals. That was the Navy was it? Good for you. It's irks me to constantly read people who pursued their own personal careers for whatever reasons pigeon hole everyone who went in to the Way Corps as jerks, ignoring that many of us were trying to reach goals of our own to help people, with the biblical message of Christ. So that's why you will definitely hear from people like myself - to give a balance based on other facts. You take every opportunity to side slam "Way Corpse". Expect responses that reflect the facts of other people's lives and experiences. Most of the Way Corps I knew and worked with were honorable people who gave a lot towards helping others. That has more to do with them than the program - they were people who were going to help others in their lives no matter what or where they ended up.

Part Deux: Way Press Release to what was known as the West Coast: "Anything that happened before isn't happening now. We fixed it. And if you live on the West Coast you have 2500 miles of insulation so you probably didn't even hear about it anyway since the West Coast is only even part of the Way Tree until we can figure out how to rename it the West Central America Region. We'll be sending a new Region leader with T-Shirts to not tell you anything, as soon as we can figure out where the last one disappeared to, we think he married a former Mormon and is in the Sierra Nevada mountains somewhere living with a Native American group that studies pueblo religious artifacts but that's another story you don't know about. Never mind." Followup Tape - Message Points for Leadership: How to Field Questions about the last 20 years: 1) Evasive action is necessary when and if you're cornered with "facts". Remember, we don't follow facts we follow truth. So quote something that's truthful. (See Corps Teaching #231 to the 83rd Hairborne Family Field Corps titled "Some Truths We Agree With". Only those truths stated in that teaching are Approved Truths. Please remember to only use sanctioned terms, as laid out in Way Leadership Tape #455, titled "Language, and When To Use It". It's a short tape, allow 5 minutes for completion. 2) Always Remember - others problems were made by "The People Who Left Long Ago And Whose Names We Don't Speak". For a complete list of everyone in the Way Ministry from 1943 to present, see the alphabetical hand out that was sent to Family Coordinators in 2004, that's the most recent update and will be the most accurate. Rather than print a new list we took the complete list and highlighted the names of people who still associate with us. 3) Most of the facts are coming from the internet. Please see tape #1007, SNS tape titled "Why Magnetic Tape Is Godly". It will really open your eyes. --- You may now turn this tape over to enjoy the contents of side 2. Press "stop" on your tape player, press "eject", open lid, take the tape out, make sure you have side 2 facing you, replace in the tape well of your tape player. Close lid. Press "play". You now have completed the Play instructions for side 2. (we decided to give you this important and timely information on tape adjustments because we really care about you and want you to know everything you need to know to succeed valiantly as disciples of the prevailing truth. You're welcome, please use the envelope labelled "Love Money" to express your godly thanks for the debt you owe).

The fact the LCM and others names are rarely spoken of anymore is proof of one of the Way's most dastardly habits...diposing of people as soon as they aren't of use anymore. Stand for 30 years, do your best, contribute, make a significant contribution, then.... Nothing. Gone. "Things are to be used, people are to be disposed of"....the Way Paradigm. (Way lurkers feel free to use that, no renumeration or recognition of where you got it is necessary other than the fact that I'll know I helped you to articulate the Way's goals and aims better) ---"Craig? Who's that? Oh, THAT Craig, the one that used to...oh yeah". "He's gone". "We're fine here. Wanna come?" Ignorance is bliss, silence is golden.

:D--> :D--> :D--> Well, if I was going to...uh... What were we talking about? :D--> Well, if I was going to...uh... Hey, what were we...boy, it's cloudy today.

If it's Jim he doesn't know how to spell his own name anymore.. :)--> (that's a joke) Jim E. Doop

If it's Jim he doesn't know how to spell his own name. :)--> (that's a joke) Jim. E. Doop

I'm surprised anyone could respond. Is it just me? It's me. I can't make heads or tails out of what you're saying. Can you reword? Is there significance to the 2 years or do you mean just somewhere down the line? Is something happening in 2 years? What if I change, even a little bit, because my understanding somehow increases just a little tiny bit over a period of 30 years. By accident. Does that qualify?

I guess this is one of the advantages of being near sighted.

Is that my only choice? :D-->

My musings aren't against you Mike. I'm not against you. You may feel I am, but I'm not. I don't want to actively participate but I'm free to comment. I won't advance your effort, that's different than being against you. Posting on this board as you do is a very minimal effort on your part IMO, tantamount to falling out of bed in the morning and saying you got up. Hopefully it's only a small part of whatever effort you are making to spread your message. I would present another path that proceeds from PFAL, a path that isn't one based on the integrity of the class itself as being the "word of God", a path that proceeds from what it teaches about, from and to - the bible. PFAL as a medium points to the bible as the primary source for understanding the will of God, that is, what God wants a person to know about Him and life. Of PFAL and it's purpose there is no question or argument about that. Regardless of how much or little integrity a person places in PFAL itself that's it's own message. It provides some fairly straightforward tools for developing an understanding of the bible. A person then takes the tools and does what PFAL teaches - "works the Word", the bible, in order to gain an understanding of the will of God. The fact that the KJV or any other version lacks in any sense or form is addressed by the purpose of PFAL. It offers solutions for the person who would like to understand the bible but can't. By using the tools it presents a person can take their bible and begin to learn what the bible is saying and what it means. PFAL ends with a series of segments on speaking in tongues - what VPW teaches as a manifestation of the spirit. PFAL teaches that because VPW believed it is available for a Christian today to have a spiritual relationship with God, one that's alive and real and according to his teaching allows a person to have a real prayer life and be able to give real worship to God. PFAL ends with placing the final piece down for a person. Again, if a person doesn't believe the teaching in speaking in tongues as taught, it's still a simple fact of the class itself that the spiritual component is there and taught as absolutely necessary. Reading the bible, studying, using it's tools, isn't the end result, it's not all there is for a Christian believer to do today. Rather, the entire class leads up to the final 3 sessions where a person is led into the means to have a personal relationship with God, through Christ. VPW taught often about "spritual perception and awareness". He taught that a person needed to speak in tongues "much" to develop their spiritual life, to exercise their spiritual capabilities. He taught that to do so would, over time, allow a person's understanding of the bible to flourish and grow. As a person's "mind of Christ" became a clearer reality to them the teachings of the bible's books would open. Through this active process of growing "spiritually", understanding would come. He was very clear that research alone would not, in his opinion, give a person a full ulitmate understanding of what the bible taught. Rather a person needed to have a willingness for God to open it to them. The fact that PFAL teaches some of that information doesn't assume to say that a person who listens to the class or reads the books will get the full understanding of it from study and research. They'll get the knowledge, but knowledge alone isn't the goal and doesn't even do a person any good if they don't attempt to incorporate it in to their lifestyle, actions and decision making. Knowledge is part of the path to a personal relationship with Christ and God. Correct knowledge simply allows a person to do what PFAL does in sessions 10 through 12 - have a real spiritual relationship with God by starting to live the "gift", holy spirit. Whether PFAL is the Word of God reissued or not isn't important. To accomplish what PFAL sets out to do a person doesn't have to accept it that way. They simply need to hear what it teaches and act accordingly. The result is night and day. Once you're in the day you're there, where you belong. One of the things I realized when I went in the Way Corps was that it was clearly possible for a Christian to embrace the knowledge and pursue it but not have that recognition for God nor a relationship with Him. PFAL grads included. They could know ABOUT God but not KNOW God. He could be something they read about, not someone they knew. Jesus Christ could turn in to a person read about but not known. And really, if you don't get hung up too long on PFAL it does do a decent job of presenting that IF a person moves on and doesn't turn it into an icon. The key, if there is one, to not put the workman or his tools above the ground he's been given to work.

MIke just discovered p. 83 in the last few years guys. That's why this is so exhilerating to him - he wasted his time the first go round in the Way and didn't do the work then so now he's all like 'that' about it all. He thinks he's discovered something in the last lost teaching, something hid, something hidDEN, something no one wanted you to know, but now he's discovered. Which was the very same thing VPW'd been saying for years, and virtually all his life. The significance of those statements he made on that tape Mike's fingering, at that season of his life.....is completely lost by all of these convoluted inventions.

Of course! Your application is being given serious consideration. ;)--> Admissions is working on it! We have a few selected spots open for "MIBS". (Members in Best Standing!)

SWEET! I don't know Laleo, I have't been able to get him regularly on the station up here in Northern Cal, in our location. I'll have to check around. He's great. I agree, these personal counselling shows are mostly for entertainment, otherwise why would they be on the radio? You could have call in counselling without broadcasting it over the airwaves to the whole world. If it's for the benefit of the listeners there's a limited value there. MD, you hit the nail on the head. Unless you AT LEAST have all the parties involved with a situation all you can do is give best-guess advice. You have no way of knowing if what you're hearing is the truth. All you can do is make some basic assumptions based on what you're hearing. Take a site like GS - you won't find all the parties involved posting about a lot of the situations that end up here. How much is one side's opinion? How much is being left out? How much forgotten? I made a joke once, not trying to be mean, that WayDale was populated by all the good people from the Way because rarely did any of us posting there (or here for that matter) portray themselves as being wrong, bad or evil. We were never the "corps nazi's" that hurt 1000's. Can't remember anyone saying "I got in the Way to get some tush and maybe pick up a few bucks on the side". It's always the other guy/girl person that did that or acted like that. All of us just got in the Way because we loved God and wanted to do some good. Right? :)--> Which isn't to say that may not be the case. I only know a few posters here outside the board, but overall the general impression I get is that while many of our own past circumstances may have been difficult, for the most part if a loving and common sense approach had been taken by anyone in a "leadership" capacity AND some basic lines had been drawn as to what was up for discussion and what should be left personal (instead of so many people insisting that they were qualified to advise in every part of life because they'd have a little exposure to some bible teaching) things would have been a lot easier to figure out and deal with. That's what I tried to do, let others make their own decisions and help and support as I could. But then....I was one of the Good Ones, right? :D--> I was just trying to do some good.

I made Exie la-augh! I minister with laughter, I have a Laughing ministry, AKA a "Humor Gift" by the Braptists but they're always getting stuff wrong. :D--> :D--> I run services weekly where people laugh so hard they wet their pants. After releasing it's amazing the change that follows, everyone immediately changes. It's axiomatic, inherent and no one gets missed. Everyone has to change. I see my link isn't working. Apparently I'm under attack. The best defense is a good offense. "Three guys walk in to a bar - a priest, an engineer and a gardner...."