socks

Yow! Chas! Just saw that. Indeed. I caught him on a lot of Sunday nights too! Eat them up, YUM!!!

Ditto on dat!

Rhapsody. They don't have everything but they have a lot. Used I Tunes a little, too. Maybe Napster got hacked by Metallihackster. :D--> One of the problems with big peer to peer file exchanges like Napster (was) is that you don't really know what you're getting. There's a high level of risk involved in downloading stuff. Haven't checked out the new Napster site though. I think Oldiesman was using something that sounded pretty good. I checked it out once, can't remember the name though. Maybe he'll chime in.

You're right, oen. I can't speak to her dollar value, so I'll ammend my statement, AKA "incorrect". Some public GS facts were collected HERE on GS as well as some other stuff. Wealth is more of a relative term. VPW gathered a group in the 60's and 70's that, for the most part, were too young to have accumlated assets of any value unless their families had it. So if you were young and just starting out you had all your "earning years" ahead of you. To digress from the Lawsuit topic, this deals with a twist in the development of Way culture, if there is a such a topic and I guess there could be. It relates to the money topic and people in the Way over the years, so I guess this should get a BIG PARENTHESIS. --> Given that VPW chose to move towards a younger audience, less entrenched in social and religious systems and committments, he dealt with that group's growth in an interesting way. Central was "the Word" and the "movement of the Word" through PFAL, WOW outreach, Corps programs and witnessing outreach focused on local Twig fellowships. All of that was implemented while most of his congregation were in their 20's. If you were 20 say in 1970 when you took PFAL you were all of 35 when he died. So those people grew up through young adulthood while in the Way. If they went WOW, entered the Way Corps and accepted field assignments with the Way for a few years that was their "career". Many people who began that sequence didn't have careers or plans when they entered it. That became their career path and training. Why this is significant is because it helped to form the backbone of what the Way's people were in relation to the rest of society. Now, I'm not a social scientist or academic so I can't take this too far - for instance in relation to the demographic group and a comparison based on careers, events, geography, etc./other factors. But, at least, I think I can see that in the Way, whole groups of people developed their life's plans and goals within the educational, service and employment opportunities within the Way itself. I might describe it as "The Way and it's teachings grew into the people AND the people grew into the Way". People who formed the foundation of the Way's "leadership" at all of it's Way Tree levels made activity in the Way their "careers" and in many cases only pursued developing "secular" careers haphazardly, mostly to support their work in the Way and with "the Word". Part time or full time ministers, putting bread on the table, roof over head and gas in the car, but not much more. VPW realized this, no question. He felt that in order to have people committing full time to "moving the Word over the world" they'd need to remain as unattached to other committments as possible. So there was a conflict that played itself out in the Way's growth - the lifestyle of perference wasn't a person with say, 4-6 years of education, a degree, advanced degrees, a career based on several years of working vigorously through a entry level positions towards advancement, or the hard first years of building your own business, a client base, reputation and references to fuel a successful future. All those years were focused on involvement in the Way's programs and classes. Which-in and of themselves weren't necessarily a bad thing. Grouped as they were in fast succession though, they filled the first 10-15-20 years of many people's adulthood. One year rolls into the next. The progression to go through the Way Corps program accounted for many years eventually - example - 2-3 years joining the Way and completing it's foundational classes, 1 year prior in a sancationed program like WOW, 1 year residence, 1 field year, 1 year in residence and graduation, then first assignment. That right there could account for 7-8 years of a person's life. While you were doing that you weren't developing other things, that was what you did. What it boils down to is a couple things at least - if you had a career coming into the Way there was a strong likelihood that you'd stop pursuing it once and if you entered this sequence of events. During and after you may or may not reenter it or continue on in any other. If you didn't have anything going before you started it your next opportunity to would be after graduation. If you accepted assignments after graduation you had a decision to make - what and where to go with your life. The tendency was to be sent out to a city somewhere, where a new sequence began. Outreach, meetings, class quotas, classes, etc. all of which made demands on your time - no surprise there because your life's career choice was to commit to the Way and it's outreach of "the Word. . It was common for people in that situation to try and get or develop part-time employment. Results varied, as you'd expect. Which brings up back to where we started. Most of the Way's people didn't have large personal assets at that point unless they got them from their families, if they hadn't invested any time in building them. What this has to do with (***yawwwwwn****) :D--> Rosalie Rivenbark is that I would place her "money" status in relation to the body of members in the Way as a whole. Whether through inheritance or earned, her assets and background would have been substantially more significant than the Average Joe or Jane who'd joined the way, middle-class, without outside support or funding and putting all of their years into the Way, who had to sell or spend what they had to do whatever it was they did. I have no question in my mind (but I'll allow others might) that VPW saw this playing out. He knew what he was building. So to him, an older person with education, experience, assets, a career of any kind and the connections you develop through those things, was of value. He often encouraged those people diffenently than people he considered having nothing going for them. For those people he seemed to encourage they "get something going" by making the Way's programs their focus. It was a kind of caste system, in a way. If you're an Average Joe, do this. If you're a Little Better Quality Jane, do that. Some people he kid-gloved. Others he never even really knew. This is the "era" of the Way in which R.R. entered the scene. A statement by one of the trustees in the 80's says a lot - "20% of our people give 80% of what the Way brings in". His point was several - not everyone "abundantly shares", not everyone tithes, but there is a fairly steady flow of contributions that comes from people who 1)"are faithful" and 2) have a lot to give. Whether that was true or not, I don't know for sure but the guy that said it would have known.

Maybe it would be safe to say that- for some people it could have been wrong to leave the Way at the time they felt it most beneficial to themselves because it would have caused hurt or harm of some kind to someone else, like a spouse, child, parent, etc. So for that person, they "couldn't leave" although if they'd had their druthers, they would have. They chose to deal with it and dealing with it became more than they bargained for or ever had any right to expect, but they stayed. for some people it would have been impossible to leave because they were overwhelmed with fear of what would happen if they did - fear of dying, fear of harm coming to their family's as they would be ravaged by Satan. Fear fed by the teachings of the Way's President and upheld by local people they - at one time - respected and trusted. So they stayed, their natural tendency to protect their well being kicking in. for some people it would have been possible, but very difficult and hurtful at the same time. Faced with personal suffering those people might have been better equipped to leave if they'd had help. They needed help, support, but they didn't have it so they didn't. for still others it was possible and with or without support they didn't have any overwhelming constraints or if they did they took what came to them, regardless. They left and made the best of it if they had difficulties. -- Speaking for myself, I'm 54 years old now. I would have no problem with any of this today. Or would I? I think the hardest thing to deal with at any age is when someone else you care about is in pain and even more so knowing what you're about to do may cause it. No one wants to do that. It's worse than being in pain yourself. Dealing with those kinds of situations are difficult. The fact that many people have these kinds of difficulties isn't a cause for judgment IMO, it's cause for understanding. It's human, it's normal. It may be stupid, ill-advised and setting you up for worse, but people do that sometimes. Different people deal with things differently, some better some worse. The common ground we share is our imperfection and our desire to build a better life out of what we've been given. That's true for everyone. IMO the best thing to do with people like those in the Way who uphold harmful beliefs and do wrong to people is to get away from them. Plan to do it, prepare to do it. Talk, get support, advice, opinions and finally act. It may be difficult but you can stop harmful cycles of thinking and behavior. If you can help them, do it but honestly evaluate your own limits. There's a story - two friends stand outside a door, and prepare to go in. The first man opens it, walks in and closes it behind him. He realizes it's pitch black! He can't see a thing. The second man calls out from outside - "Is it okay to come in?" The first man says back "Yes!" and the second man opens the door, rushes in and as he closes the door behind him he turns and runs in to his friend, knocks him over and they both fall down, knocking over furniture in the process. In the darkness they scramble around until finally the second man yells out to his friend "Why didn't you tell me it was pitch black in here?!" His friend says back "You didn't ask me that!" -->

Aaaaand speaking of the lawsuit: I'd bet a dollar, good old American cash money, right now, that Ms. Rivenbark was of STRONG voice urging for a settlement. I could see Martindale spluttering and squirming and trying to keep his head up. "Well dernit! Nobody's going to take this ministry down! I may have-I didn't, I mean, doggonit! I ain't gonna - uh..." "Waaa-hl now hawney, maybee we bettah think about this fo-ah a spell, and considah whaht mawght be bay-est, for the MIN-ISTRY, not to may-nchun uthahs that mawght get in-vawlved in this unsawghtly aff-ayah..." I mean, LCM's got as much sense as a hamster in a pig pen. I can't help but figure he was shown.....a Bettah Way. :D-->

Well, I sure do, Chas. :)--> I can do an easy hour of Talking Heads. ;)--> That is incredible, isn't it? One year Craig's there, next years he's gone. Does anyone "in" wonder why? What happened? He steps down, then he steps out. How come? What happened to his marriage? What's Donna doing? Can we help? What can we do to help? Shut up? Stop asking? Okay, thanks, Ms. Pope'n'Bark. :D--> The headline in the St. Mary Leader should have been: "Way Ministy Won't Stand - But They Will Settle!" All they had to do was say "the court records were sealed as a result of the settlement. What the suit was about is a matter of public record though, so here's what (these people) were accused of, here's what we did about it, now we can't talk about it. That's what the Way's legal counsel recommended, or that's what Craig decided, or whatever." There's no spiritual spin to put on it that makes it better. It just was what it was. They could easily add "we got in deep doo-doo. We're trying to work out what to do about it ministry wide. We'll get back to everyone as we have more information and we will get back to it with you." That's the most damning thing about it all. The President of the Way gets sued, goes to court, sort of, and settles, steps down along the way and finally leaves. You'd think that would be Big News. As Pastors they get an "F", no do over. "The truth shall make you free - indeed!" Where's the truth? Hidden. IMO, because they're basically losers. Jesus said we'd always have the "poor" amongst us, and as long as there's standing grads in the Way we're guaranteed of that. The people who hang on and try to band-aid that broken down wagon of a company aren't exactly what I'd call Type A personalities, they're people committed to a life of reduced expectations. Their current BOT's are prime examples of that. Whatever spark there was in their eyes has long been glazed over by ritual failure. If anyone really hated a Way leader all they have to do is hope they stay "in". That's punishment enough. The people who don't know anything about what's gone on are sitting ducks. They don't know it but the best they can hope for is that someone else won't "rise up" and do worse than their predecessor. The door's wide open for that to happen. As for Rosalie, and where she comes off from - it's money. She was wealthy coming in to the Way and had a veneer of respectability and "class". Power and money was her entree' to leadership in the Way. The fact she's been able to keep it and keep her job (which appears to stay on at the Way Nash regardless of the position) says a lot about her own savvy and politcal abilities. But she's not a leader, she's a party planner with money. Historically the Way will suck bugs off a log of your choice and call it steak if you've got money and power and then after they've got your money they'll kick your foot out and say it's theirs. She's been jerking them around for years. She does'nt just navigate deadly water well, she cuts it like a Great White in a seal wetsuit. I wouldn't get within 10 feet of her without a tape recorder, a camera and a young-gun lawyer out to make a rep for themself. It's a very friendly bunch leading the Way...they exemplify greed, pride ....All that stuff that Jesus talked about so warmly. But in his absence, ahem, any WOman o' god will do y'know.

My armchair analysis: By settling out of court and at the last minute, TWI forever left everything open to debate. Whatever they gained is clouded by the fact that settling can mean just about anything - an admission of guilt on all or some of the charges of the suit, a desire to avoid publicity, whatever. It allowed for the records to be sealed. No one involved can discuss the details. The Way says they put a high value on "truth". By settling and allowing LCM to resign and leave they effectively locked up whatever truth there was to this. If the allegations were true, there's no guarantee that they "fixed" anything, only that they dealt with this one set of allegations. That effectively allows them to move on and present the face that it was a singular one time event, outside of their control at the time. The Way continues to avoid any opportunity to deal with the issues that this brought up-their beliefs about pre-marital sex, the obligations of marriage between a man and a women, the role and responsibility of their ordained leadership, adultery from a biblical and social viewpoint. Many items that would be simple teachings formed from clear statements have never been deal with, that I know of. I'm sure it was a hard pill to swallow for them but I'd call it a move to cut their losses, a stop-gap measure taken to limit the damages. It gave them an opportunity to get LCM's problems off the plate of the ministry and disassociate themselves from it. It really goes to show how the Way thinks and works, when push comes to shove. If you're a liability in their eyes, you're on your own and you'll soon be gone.

He mentions it on his site: http://www.kentmkeith.com/mother_teresa.html What a wonderful story! I've seen these written somwhere - before, never knew what they actually were. Thanks Franko and catcup!

Jordan's is a nice piece. I didn't read it all, just skimmed it. One of the verses the Way gets hung up on is the "Owe no many anything but to love" verse in Romans 13. And not to just start another harangue on their hoses but it's typical. They get hung up one part and miss the greater meaning, which doesn't take a theology major to understand. It's very clear - Jordan's simple definition is in line with every source or reference I've ever checked on that verse and the definition of debt: any obligation that becomes past due, be it financial or legal or spiritual. Any commitment not kept. Any duty not performed. Any obligation not met. It is not the commitments, obligation, or duties themselves (no matter how they are worded or what they are called). It is the non-performance that determines what becomes debt. Oddly - sort of - the Way misses the full meaning of the verse. Don't have any unpaid debt. Love and so fulfill all of the law. Taking it from the definition of debt it's a nice twist - you could say the primary outstanding debt every Christian owes and needs to be current on is to love Mortgages aren't true "debts". They're agreements. That verse teaches to honor your agreements. Rent is an agreement. Working for a salary is an agreement. Living within our means is one thing. Not taking on obligations we can't meet is one thing. Agreements and contracts are one thing. One thing the Way has trouble doing is bringing itself to openly and actively honoring it's obligation to love, without qualification or restraint. They'd obviously rather turn the simplest of teachings of Jesus and the N.T. and turn them in to laws to be obeyed "or else". If they'd just cast off their chains and let love run loose they'd fall much closer to the truth, IMO. But then look at what happened when John S. turned out his little study on "adultery". Because it touched so close to home it enraged the guilty. But du-uh. "Adultery's wrong". Not exactly a New-Age Christian teaching. Imagine what getting into the Way's cash flow would cause! Sex is one thing, but you start talking MONEY - Sweet Jumpin' Jellybeans!

:o--> Ala, Pre-91, the legalism was just if you were late for twig, you'd get smacked in the head but not hard enough to actually knock you out, just hard enough to make sure you got the accuracy of the Word on the topic: We love you and if you're late 10 minutes and keep 10 people waiting you just wasted 100 minutes, what's the matter why can't you be a good steward of time if you can't be faithful in little things you'll never be faithful enough to carry Don Weirwille's jockstrap and if you say that's little too you're kicked out you infidel, that's not funny!!!!! Post-91, the legalism was more - if you were late for twig you got sent home and waited for people in black hoods to show up and Ask Questions about why your refrigerator door had magnets with pictures of stars on them with your kids names, what's up with that are you in to astrology now too???? There was a big difference. This just in-Giants sited in San Francisco! Relocated from the East Coast, large, steroid laden men have shown up dressed in baseball jerseys! Story at 11!

Top 10 Reasons to Stay When You're Miserable: 10. Not really miserable-since all the troublemakers left the fellowship things have been really quiet and peaceful for everyone else. Both of us are quite happy now. 09. After 20 years, addicted to cheap chocolate cookies and coffee! 08. It's only been 20 years, give it time, it'll change! 07. Your bookstore table display in your living room where the TV used to be has started talking to you at night and wants you to stay. 06. Ex-Spouse left, best friends left, family left. If you leave there won't be anyone to do set up! 05. Finally sold everything of value you own and now have no debt of any kind. Time to start saving for that retirement tent! 04. Used to have lots of questions. Since you decided to stop asking questions everything goes much smoother and that miserable feeling is now more like a dull throb. 03. Current spouse says I'm not really miserable, I'm just not believing for images of victory to prevail in my life. *smaks head* No wonder! 02. This is the only place that has the accuracy of the Word. I know that beyond the shadow of a doubt, I've checked everywhere and this is the only thing that makes sense. (turn tape over for rest of message now please) And the Number One Reason to Stay When You're Miserable: 01. Personal committment to the saying "Life sucks, then you die!"

Thanks for coming to my rescue Long Gone and Jonny! Bakatya, JL! I'm coning up for air! Derail #89- I remember the bathroom incident. Good Lord, it's like recalling a bad nightmare. Back in that humid, stuffy BRC in late Fall, snow already on the ground if I remember right. Condensation on the windows. Those little foldup school seat chairs and folding chairs all perfectly strung in the back. Standing outside on a break shivering in the cold, smokin' 'em if you had 'em. Last time I saw a lot of those people that came so I'm kind of glad I went. It was the Last Chance for me to see exactly what was being proposed by For-Christs-Sake Geer and the Way No-Nuts'ees. Basically, nothing. I'd already made my personal pitch to one of the trustees at ROA 86. Went nowhere, in fact at least one of them was considering leaving themselves, at that time. Dog and Pony Show: Other possible terms, according to my limited understanding: "All Blow and No Show" "All Cake and No Flake" (regional West Coast usage) "All Smoke and No Toke" (60's usage) *******screech**************** to the thread topic- Come to think of it I have no idea what the Way Carnivale in New Knoxville would think of the U.S.A. PFAL being copied and used. I suspect they'd uh, frown on any unauthorized use of anything, including their used toilet paper unless of course you were an Active Graduate of Any Current Courses and Requirments and a regular contributor of your abundance and particpated in a local Way Fellowship not less than once a month and had no outstanding Accusations or Genuine Suspicions against you that hadn't been resolved and were ALSO on the List of Approved Participants in your local area with at least two Way Leaders who could vouch for you as of last night, in which case you could probably have all their used toilet paper you wanted. For a donation, given in love, of course. But if someone had their receipt, a letter, or something to prove their copy of PFAL came from Way-Euro, my guess would be they'd be okay, depending on the current state of the agreements. Now, if they wanted to the Bustees could probably insist thre be a disclaimer presented by every owner upon every use. But that's just a guess. If they haven't by now they probably won't. Until they change their minds. I have no idea how to get a copy from anyone though, so I can't really answer the question of the thread, sorry.

Christ Geer's Dog and Pony show, a reference to the "Clergy Meeting" that was called at Way Headquarters in late 86. Or was it 87? Now my memories going fuzzy. I think it was November of 86. He was the Dog and the Pony. 1/2 was him at a podium preaching on the evils of all Way believers in the U.S. He started with the Way Corps and worked out from there. We were largely a possessed ministry. Everyone was possessed, getting possessed or being influenced by devil spirits and their possessee's. He didn't mention you by name Galen but I'm sure you would have made the list. Why go to a Dog and Pony Show, when you know there's a 50-50 per cent chance it's going to be smoke-blowing contest, up your hiney? Because that's the only way you're going to get any information first hand. You wanna dance, you gotta pay the band. Which I did. Plane fare's were paid for by the Way Nash, for everyone who wanted one. I bought my own and took enough cash to get a cab out of New Knoxville if I decided I wanted to leave. I stayed - again, I wanted to hear first hand everything that happened. Nothing happened, really. He left, Craig replayed the tape of what Chris Geer had said and they played some Advanced Class tapes to followup and that was that. It was mostly a bird's eye view of the condition at that moment in time of the Way's "Leadership" and for me a last chance to try and talk to the BOT's personally. It was the last time I did face to face, although briefly as they didn't have much to say, and the last time I set foot on Way property. (By this time the POP had been distributed so a lot of that information was already known too, as far as Geer's displeaure (kaff) at the Way of the U.S.A.'s handling of business with Euro Way.) So as far as Euro Way copies of PFAL goes, there was a lot of interest after that amongst people who wanted them as I think anyone at that meeting had at least an inkling that the BOT's weren't going to get their minds right anytime soon. They were pretty much mush-brained, incapable of doing anything more than sitting like a bumps on a log and muttering to themselves like victims of Alzheimer's. Not a pretty sight, not much you could do about and not an exaggeration.

In Chris G's POP Dog and Pony show at the Way Nash in late '86 he explained the arrangments he had made between the Way of Europe and the Way International. One of his big complaints was how the W of E's class and bookstore orders were mishandled and the lousy level of service they got. So he "said" he made a contractual agreement to outright "own" complete rights to print, copy, distribute and use all of the Way's classes and publications. He didn't want to mess around anymore getting his stuff from New Knoxville so he cut the cord with them. At that point they had no claim or control over what he did with them. This was to prevent any "hindrance" of the Word moving and continuing in Eurpope. I never saw the paperwork and never spoke to him directly about his arrangments. I wasn't interested in hooking on to his train just so I could get Way materials and to avoid the BOT's. I wanted to avoid them all, so I didn't pursue it any further. But - I have heard from some people over the years that they got materials from him, which may have been direct or from the Way of E's bookstore. That includes copies of PFAL, so I've been told. The story goes that according to his arrangment, that wasn't illegal because he had the right to do that with them. So people in the U.S. could have copies of the classes that came from Europe and not be in violation of the Way's copyrights here because they got a "legal" copy from CG's gang, or whoever ended up administering the rights for them over there. Supposedly this was all done in the interests of keeping "the Word alive" for future generations. As far as charging for the class when it's run from a Euro copy, I have an ever so humble opinion on that. It wouldn't surprise me at all that someone would try to restart the PFAL money machine and crank out a few bucks for themselves. For the movement of the Word, of course, naturally. But the few times I've heard about PFAL being run from these Euro copies there's been no or little money involved and it's done by people who just want to run PFAL because they believe it's worthwhile. That's just what I've heard of, a small sampling I'm sure because a lot of people were scrambling in 86-87 to get everything they thought they'd need if Way World U.S.A. imploded, exploded and/or emulsified. Which of course it was doing and did.

So he's the Way's PR guy, or was? Spin Doctor. I remember now. He's the guy on that video clip, the news story that was done in Ohio about the Way Woods, Doug Mc and that whole thing. He said on camera he doesn't believe any promise was actually made by VPW to people that buried relatives in the Way Woods that they'd be able to visit their graves freely for the rest of their lives. I remember now. He's the misinformed lying Way Spin Doctor. I can't wait to read the report on his (*urp*) "Teaching". Thanks, LH. Take care of that finger man!

Who's Rico Magn*lli again?

Dan, I tend to agree with your assessment, with some caveats - the idea of Way Nash sponsored and/or supported fellowships was at one time a reasonable idea. It really comes down to how self governing, propogating and financing is defined and applied. At it's best you have local, individual effort supported by a "ministry" that develops resources for people to use. The self-GPF always had this attached to it - "in cooperation with the next higher ex-officio level of the Way Tree". That line describes a relationship in a Christian "ministry" corporate structure that I believe works best if the cooperation is primarily one of support, not rules that are mandated and handed down. It also can't be dictated by a central higher authority. The governance in the local fellowship has to be absolute, with decisions being made there that hold weight. "Cooperation" would then lean heavily towards "assistance" - help for that local fellowship to grow and develop as they determined. Each part of the "Way Tree" then helps the other parts to develop along the lines they decide. In hindsight I've thought the Way ministry overall was a very specific "ministry" that was best at focusing on it's research and teaching efforts as a means to provide tools for people to take and use as they decided. From the Way's efforts there could have been many more ministry organizations, churches, etc. that would have sprung up. All kinds of different activities and endeavors. It didn't work out that way of course because everything had to be run out of New Knoxville and eventually the Way was overrun with Way Corps greduates. Even then if the goal of the Way Corps had been to "turn people loose" to go on with their lives with a solid foundation AND support system to assist them there could have been some very interesting results. I think there were in some cases, even with everything that's gone on. But it could have been a very unique opportunity for it's time. One thing to remember about the Way Corps is that those people who graduated from the Way Corps didn't get cooked up out of thin air. They were people who were part of fellowships around the country. They were you, us, we, not "them". Everyone at one time was in a fellowship somewhere. What were the personal goals and impulses that caused a person to want what they thought the Way Corps training would provide? I think there's probably a 1,000 different answers to that, one for each person.

Hey Ala, I know what you mean. I'm only speaking for the fellowships we had or were part of. Some of those could get dicy at times too. But overall I'd say we avoided the ugliness that many people describe experiencing. (moderately severe derail alert! ) Unfortunately it's not because I was exceptionally good at anything I did. I always felt time was a major factor, even for people that love to hang out. People work, go to school, have stuff to do. I'd worked hard in the Corps to learn how to do short sharings, teachings. I found 20 minutes is a long time when you don't have anything to say, much shorter when you have a lot to say. Most of the time it's somewhere in the middle so all you have to do is watch the time. Other than that a person just has to remain open to, whatever. People have a way of being really wonderful in their own ways. I always felt an hour was a long time to plan anything for, definitely for a twig fellowship in a home. It never mattered to me if we started "ON TIME". I knew what time we met, everyone else did too. We'd hang out and start pretty much "on time" nearly all the time and it was never a big deal if somebody was "late". We wanted people to come and enjoy the time together and you can't do that if you're yelling at each other. We get hassled all day at work, on the roads, everywhere we go. "Twig" was supposed to be a place where you could feel welcome, relax, let your inner-putz-self be itself. Relax, you're amongst fellow-geeks. :D--> One of the greatest honors I ever experienced was when people who left our areas to go WOW or to live somewhere else would call and come back later. We had a few people who thought of us when they were deciding where to live and they picked our fellowship to "come back to". We were always thrilled to be close to them again. I can't count the number of problems I had myself at different time, jobs, schedules, getting in "sync" with the Way's goals when we lived on "the field". I'm glad most people loved me in return otherwise they would have had plenty to judge against me. I know it wasn't always good everywhere. That's why I finally started to edge my way to a new life, and ultimately took the opportunity to leave when it was right. It just wasn't working out and I couldn't, didn't know how to fix it. I finally came to my own conclusion it wasn't fixable on a large scale.

Well, for my whole time in the Way I found the catalyst for the goodness of the people to be what they learned from the bible. That environment that was produced in fellowship was created by a combination of things, the spirit of God in people, the fellowship with each other and the fellowship around the bible and it's various teachings. The weekly meetings in a home were a part of this but not the only part. Not everyone came in the door nice and good. Some pretty rasty people became wonderful to be around and to know after being around "the believers". Why? I feel it was part what they chose to live and use of what they learned and part the influence of a group of people who were doing the same. Of course a lot of great people would come and their own character would grow from what they learned and what they shared with and from the rest of the people they got to know. I see it this way - most of the time in fellowships we had or participated in we read things from the bible that were pretty encouraging. Things that built a positive view of God, what God's view of us was, and what life could be like. We prayed together. Nobody got hurt or beat up. :)--> If somebody was bored or fried all they had to do was say so, make a contribution or a suggestion. But if someone got all hung up about something and needed to talk it out but wouldn't it made it hard too. So you'd just "love" that person, we all needed that and without that you don't have much by way of a Christian fellowship. I guess I see the one thing - the teaching of the bible and the other - the people, being two sides of the same coin. The key to the home fellowship part of it was to not over extend yourself or others. If you could come, you came. If you could teach or share, you did. If you could help you helped. I'll admit it could be hard to juggle at times but that was usually because I was fighting something obvious, something I was straining with that didn't need to be done that way or at that time.

Thanks Oaks. That clarifies it. No bennies at the bema, hey? I'm not sorry I missed the Afternoon Sharings. :D-->

Yes, Johnny. Knew John Nave well. A fine fellow indeed! He married Frannie C. of Alameda later, and my wife was good friends with John and her family too. John Nave stories - love it! John really characterized kindness. We had a few escapades ourselves. He had a very personal way about him. You and that Alameda group were the finest folks. Many many good times.

Congratulations!

Thanks for the hoot, diazbro! :D-->

What? I wasn't perfectly clear? :D--> Thanks, that's what I tried to say anyway, PFAL completely made the case that a person can't lose their salvation once they're born again. There's a basic "token" paid, an entry level admission fee satisfied by belief in Christ, accompished by the sacrifice of Christ. But...I have heard from some people that LCM (and whoever else I don't know) taught something to the effect that a person could lose that basic level of salvation in Christ if they did something really wrong, like leave the Way and join another crew or worse yet actually stand against the Way. That might have been...but I don't know for sure....a misunderstanding of Craig's rants. I understand he made the whole "grease spot by midnight, worse than dogs, spiritual mincemeat" rant over people who left the Way during his regime very very harsh and ugly. People here post about it all the time. Which is my point, not so clear I guess - by shooting his mouth off so often, so loosely and so outright evil-ly, he may have made it seem possible to "spiritually die" where it was some kind of spiritual ding that wouldn't be forgiven, that wasn't covered by salvation. (and let's face it he certainly wasn't forgiving anyone so for a person responsible to pastor the church he'd been given he did a lousy job. What makes his wife, his family, his friends, anymore worthy than any of us? Because they hung around and putup with him longer?). Those who have been given much have much expected. I've said it before, he's lucky he didn't get his face kicked in and most of us chose to walk away. It says more about the decency of the people he abused than it does about what he deserved. From his viewpoint he wanted to make people that left seem so bad, so marked, so devoid of God's love and protection and so hopelessly lost that there was no way a person would ever be acceptable again. Churches represent God and Christ, right? Or are supposed to. If a church completely condemns you that way it absolutely will leave you feeling like you're unforgivable. But PFAL didn't teach that, no. If anything PFAL at least presented the environment that all of those people who felt that they'd been abandoned, forsaken and left for dead had a place to come in out of the storm and get well - God's love. Not a bad thing, really.