socks

Man, this topic's got legs! It goes around every so often. As long as I'm here, some scintillating comments that will uplift everyone, I'm sure. Oldiesman, you make a good point in that a lot of the written dissertations that circulated from, and including, the Passing of the Patriarch in early 1986 to say about 1990, were long on rhetoric and short on specific details relating to the BOT, the condition of the Way and exactly what the problems were. I was sent Vince's, or one of his, and it seemed like I'd missed a lot of background he didn't write about as it didn't contain much information or facts about his whole situation. Which I felt would have been valuable to anyone trying to make an informed decision. Compared to the orderly conductance of business in the Way most were used to there was extreme chaos over those 4 years or so. Given that a lot of the documents that were sent out pinged off someone resigning or being fired and them leaving the Way, I don't think it unreasonable to expect a person would want some specifics, not by having to pester everyone over the phone with questions, but in the context of the letters they received. Here's what happened, here's who was involved and said, here's what I did, here's what they did and here's what I've decided. Here's the exact reasons why I'm leaving a ministry that I probably told you last week was the greatest thing since toothpaste and why I'm telling you today it's not. I've changed my mind about it, or some things and here's what they are and why. What's so hard about that? A lot of the letters I had forwarded to me were just like the P. of the P. That was a collection of what Geer said was VPW's last ruminations and discussions with him about the Way. How it wasn't what he'd hoped it would be, how he'd been failed and let down by those he trusted most in. How no one really stood with him or was standing with him. He named a lot of names but in that writ of Geer's there was no real presentation of much beyond that, no specifics, no statements of VPW's that would really allow a person to understand the details of exactly what was wrong and even more so exacty WHY VPW himself hadn't taken more specific action and appealed to anyone beyond a few close associates. There was also a lot of how hard Geer himself worked, despite the failings of those around him. Sound familiar? The veracity of Geer's writings was never proven. I have no idea if that's what VPW really said to him, it was never proven beyond a couple people that said oh yeah, he came to me too but they didnt listen or they were afraid. Overall if it's what VPW said to him it sounded to me like a lot of bellyaching. A lot of these resignation letters that went out later were similar in that they had a lot of vague accusations in them...."the BOT are idolaters"...."they're off the Word"....."I won't pimp for them anymore"...."I'm not going to follow men, I'm going to follow God". Details, please? What exactly does that mean, please? Most of all I felt like POP and all of this later stuff opened the door to change in the Way that was going to happen sooner or later anyway. This just brought a lot of things to the surface that were festering, things that weren't addressed at all by Geer's POP and that he took great exception to when they did come out. The whole autocratic set up of the Way was bound to fold, IMO, particularly for the reasons that most of us DID NOT know anything about, the stuff going on behind closed doors, but also because the Way was frozen in the past and had no vision for the future. It's members were growing faster and further than it's leadership. The future just came a little quicker for some. To me, LCM's "loyalty" letter was a joke. For 3 years he hadn't earned the right to ask for anyone to follow him and he'd given up what right he had by his inability to be an effective leader. (I don't believe he was the "man of God" of the ministry or had any particular eternal claim to it's presidency as it was handed down to him. Your mileage on that may vary) On that level it didn't make him a criminal, it just meant he needed to take a break and at least, with the assistance of the rest of the ministry, sort out the chaos and bring it's people together. But he didn't realize his own state, let alone the concerns of those he worked with. My opinion. See, I told you it would be scintillating. :lol: But really, this was a LONG time ago. I'm sure it's good to sort out some of the facts. I kind of understand why some might want to and I hope discussing it helps to resolve things. But today's a new day and these are long gone.

Why play the odds about bad things happening? Why not play the odds about good things happening? Odds are there will be more hurricanes and that there will be some bad ones, unfortunately. No offense, but I think it's in bad taste to toss around predicitions that will involve human lives based on a feeling that if the odds go in your favor you'll be "right". There's nothing right about damage and loss of life. And to make my point clearer in case there's any misunderstanding, it's wrong to do this as far as I'm concerned because it's insensitive to the immense suffering that it represents. Sorry Roy, hate to let you down hard, but cut it out. Please.

Ham, you've struck a chord there. - Bb maj 9/b5th to be exact, and it's resonating. My personal approach is - I'm about as okay as I'm gonna get at the moment, so can we move on to other topics of more interest, like why is it so hard sometimes to tell someone they have something wiggly lodged in their nose and it's weirding everyone out, when they obviously don't know? My personal conclusion - because if it were me, I'd want someone to tell me, but then I'd be embarrassed that it even got there to begin with and on top of that the means of removing it, while completely normal and common to all mankind for as long as we can remember is something we simply don't want to talk about - unless you're a Mother, in which case a kleenex and a simple "hold still!" will solve the whole thing and be done with it. As to Exoreeno's dllemma, I have no immediate relief, no simple answer, only that we should never be embarrassed about doing what comes natural to us and what at the moment we feel we need to do. Still, we will feel that way sometimes and maybe there's something to be gained from it. Maybe not. Either way, while we pursue grander purposes in life, of love and growth and ever-improving personal hygiene, sometimes it gets incredibly strange always trying to fix ourselves and everyone else within spitting distance. But then, we're Americans, and Americans wax on/wax off, ever hopeful and sure that if it's busted we can fix it and it it isn't busted, we can still fix 'er up right pretty and make it even better. In one way or another and probably many we're all a little tweezed in places. We're all at different stages of becoming the wonderful People our Mother's always knew we could be and that she no doubt still holds deep in her heart. Or, in the words of someone I can't remember - You have to learn to laugh at yourself. You might as well, everyone else is. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I also wanted to share this - I've learned some things over the years that have helped me immeasurably, namely that there are some people who either don't understand me, or worse, don't like me. I know - I know. Not like me? What's not to understand?? :unsure: I was surprised too. But it appears to be true. So I decided to do the work (again - sigh!!!!) and figure out the possible reasons for such an unlikely development and provide yet again meaningful and useful solutions for everyday life. Here then are my discoveries: Discovery #1: Chemicals. :o It's really all about the increase in chemically enhanced products that our society handles and ingests in the name of progress. Since the 40's it's increased 10,000 fold in the form or creams, lotions, fragrances, cleansers, toothpaste, food, water and even the very air we breathe. Result - brain damage, mostly in the brain centers that process emotions and logic. How can people make sound judgments about me under such an assault on their brains? Impossible. Unfortunately this will probably not improve in the near future so I've had to learn to be patient and understanding and invest my time addressing my other, very important discoveries. :blink: Discovery #2: The advancement of the 60's.psycho-goo philosophy - "I'm Okay, You're Okay". This is the most insidious of the assaults I must undergo as it sounds oh-so good but is no-so wrong! I'm about to finish up a book addressing this very topic, titled "I'm Okay - Got It?" that will clear up MUCH confusion in this area. Once people do the exercises that go along with the book they'll start to both see and feel much better - about me. It's packed with powerful and practical take-aways that are sure to thrill. Watch for it, it will be out in time for Christmas, which should make my holiday season a LOT better. Discovery #3: Practice makes perfect. Even when a person doesn't quite "get it" I've found it helps them a lot if they just act like they do and move forward with the correct behavior. It will seem foreign to them and challenging at first, but I've found that if a person will at least try, in time they'll learn to like the new way of doing things - to me. Over time it becomes more natural and before we know it things are right as rain, for me. ;) Well, that's the gist of it. There's more of course, so much more, but I just checked the "Check Post Length" button and I'll run out of space in about 50 screens so I'll hold on the rest, I'm reserving it for my next book, long in the making, to be titled "The Magic of Me". Watch for it, there's going to be a DVD version that will have lots of extras. .

Sufferin' sucotash! I'm so embare-assed! :D Wait-People, we need some comfort food here. Can we get an order of fries, extra grease, with a side of cholesterol cakes? One quarter, one tune, some blues please, something funky that Bo Diddly would dig: On This Highway B) "On this highway, I thought I had a friend. Guess what? I was wrong again. I'm gonna ride. Ride, ride, ride. On this highway, the wheel's spinnin' round. The wheel's gonna spin right into the ground. I'm gonna ride. Ride, ride, ride. On this highway you can never tell. One man's heaven, another man's hell I'm gonna ride. Ride, ride ride. On this highway they don't even want you to try. Just sit around Wait to die. I'm gonna ride. Ride, ride, ride." Studebaker John & The Hawks edited all kindsa times...because I can.... :)

Well Mr. Spear, processing is slowed down substantially when we (King James usage due to the sheer magnitude and incredibleness of all of this truth and stuff) have to handle checks, mostly due to the special shielding we have to use to filter out the harmful emantions and effervations from the check coding used on modern day checks. You know the ones, the Klingon code in the lower portion of the check. Due to our extreme concern for our customers we provide, completely free of charge and at no additional cost of any kind to you of course, a translation of the code and it's real true meaning, in modern day English, printed and embossed on specially treated paper made from recycled prune skins. Suitable for framing and appropriate for seasonal gift giving, it can be yours for a handling and shipping fee of only 5.95. I'd recommend using PaySpank for this. We have a special arrangement with them, all you have to do is note the word "socks stuff" in the comments section and they'll handle all of the arrangments for free, for a small handling fee. YIKES!!!!! Moony, that's it!!!!!!!! "Follow the money", as always! I'm sure that once this gets the attention it deserves there will be repercussions. Watch your back there Lady! Well, I hope this has helped.

Some of the Top Kults today: Girl Scouts of America. Pretty soon they'll be out selling "cookies" in their yearly "fund raising" efforts, securing much needed funds for - what? Exactly where does that money go? And for what purposes? Their relentless efforts at filling our pantries with their cookies every year makes guys like Lance Armstrong look like weinies. On the surface it's all beanies and smiles but what lurks under the surface? Highly trained, committed survivalists - this is a youthful army that bears watching. The Wal Mart Greeters. Ever gone into Wal Mart and try to get a cart on your own? It's impossible. Wal Mart hires senior citizens for these front line jobs but my sense is these are no candidates for the President's Council on Aging, no indeed. They smile, they greet, they give you the cart THEY want you to have and woe to the young whippersnapper that challenges them! Possible motives? Why THAT cart, why then, and why ME? It's all suspiciously random and all-too-sweet. The next time you see that big yellow smiley face and hear "Have a nice day" as you're handed a cart with a wheel out of whack...be afraid. Be VERY afraid. The Jimmy Kimmel Show. Where did he come from? Who is he? Sure, he's funny, off-beat. But how did a guy who looks like your cousin get the sweet spot on late night TV? You can bet money changed hands in a midnight ceremony somewhere in Hotel California and there was one less chicken in somebody's dinner-pot the night the contracts were drawn for That show. Kermit. He's little, he's cute, he's green, he's a frog. Or is he? What unseen power allows this stuffed puppet to retain followers year after year after year? No amphibean before or since has done so well. Our collective antennae should have twitched long ago about THIS one. I have MUCH background research to substantiate this and a lot more. If you'd like my Weekly newsletter "The Truth and Nothing But the Truth", you can get it completely free of charge and at no cost whatsoever. Just send 19.95 to cover the nominal shipping and handling fees to "socks@get_it.com" and this powerful message of hope will be sent to you, real soon. Packed with news you can use and insider insight, you'll be really glad you did.

Hi Evan. :) That's it I think, on the "operation" of stuff. PFAL teaching clearly stated that holy spirit is "operated" by believing , and that manifestations were, as you state Belle, a kind of grape cluster of abilities that the believer had. I tried to figure out the language of it all at the time and I'd boil it down to - holy spirit, pneuma hagion, a new nature, "eternal life spirit" that became not only "yours" but part of you, and received at the time of the "new birth".... which is "Christ in you", a new nature with a new character and new abilities, "His eyes behind your eyes", etc.... of which there were 9 specific manifestations listed in the bible that would be the result of "believing action" in a person who knew how to believe accordingly. Something clearly inferred in PFAL is that the 9 manifestations aren't "all" there is to the new birth. That is, they aren't the sum total of what pneuma hagion is in a person, rather they would be considered a part of the new life in Christ. Remember Romans 13 - these things shall pass away, they aren't permanent fixtures in the eternal life of a person born again. They're for "now". For that matter, they aren't even the point and purpose of a Christian's life. That's to be overwhelmingly devoted to love - love to God and our fellow man. Out of that life of love is produced the things we read about, like these "manifestations". An active love-life produces a person who will want to do good and so God will produce both His greater will and the desire to fulfill it in that person. To pursue them solely for the successful achievement of "operation" would be useless and counter-productive. Like wanting a big bank account full of lots of money, but no desire to work and save to build it or be prepared for the opportunities that would develop to do so. So it becomes a paradox trying to focus on both things separately, and at once. Love - the selfless giving of oneself to another, is the wind that gently knocks the first domino over into the next. Or so I would say. (see reference to "Romans 13 above - what do I know?!!) :D :lol: This is a little like the Ford trying to explain to Henry that if he'd put the tires on the front where the headlights were, they wouldn't wear out so fast. The way I see it, the knowledge gained from the bible doesn't equal understanding. It's just knowledge, albeit good stuff. Understanding comes from enlightenment, a stuffy sounding word but one the bible itself uses to describe what God wants to happen. He wants what we're able to learn and see through our hearts to be enlightened, by the spirit of wisdom and revelation He gives to us. Like the Ford, we see the parts but the well fitted assembly of them all comes from His guidance.

Well, since my Dr's. license expired due to some controversy over my "qualifications", I haven't been operating nearly as much as I did at one time, but I still keep my stethoscope clean. :D Sorry, the attempt at levity carries no intention of ill-will. I do feel the word "operate" is a tad cold to reference life, love, God, the universe, and all that stuff. Kind of a shock to a warm tushy. But I think I get your drift. I don't apply biblical truths and principles ® in quite the same clinical way I did at one time, that's for certain. But I do find the approach of trying to live in a manner organized generally around a faith in God and the teachings of Jesus Christ very rewarding and satisfying. I'm not nearly as good at it as I once thought I was though, but I'm learning more as I go and that's probably one of the things I definitely have held on to and would consider consistent - the phrase "learning is an exciting adventure!".

One other common term for manifestations in PFAL/Way teaching was "enablements", another "abilities". In general I benefitted from getting an understanding of God as a real, immediate presence. My long view back now is that fussing so over the terms and definitions hampers progress and personal growth. Scripting and orchestrating everything so tightly limits the wonderful path of discovery in a person's life. There's no surprises. That's kind of weird considering how diverse and incredible the whole of our lives and creation is.

Who says it's necessary today? --> Who says anyone has to reach millions in one broadcast swoop? Who says that's an effective way to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ? The 'feedback cards' the attendees fill out afterwards? johniam, I would say gently we're talking apples and limes here, to my ear. The gospel of Jesus Christ isn't the same as a college class. Comparing them doesn't make sense to me. Jesus had impact on individuals, close up, personal. His teachings reached throngs of people, but the records that reach our souls today are the ones where we see Him love the unlovable and do the humanly impossible for those without a snowball's chance in June of ever making it. The ones that make us, at our lowest points in life think, "Maybe He would have done that for me too, even me". What would Jesus have taken in money for what He offered? It's ludicrous. What would I take in trade for introducing someone to Him? What am I, an escort service for Jesus? I'm stuck on this topic as to how I feel, so I'm a big snooze at this point. Ethically I feel it's wrong to a) charge for something that isn't truly mine to sell and b) make others pay for something they desparately need that God ALREADY paid the price for in His son, Jesus Christ. Something there makes me cringe, but maybe it's just me. (But overall, I have no beef with Billy Graham, he seems like a good man who's put his money where his mouth is).

:)--> I know the feeling. dmiller's point on the response being left up to the receiver - I think that fits with the spirit of the giver, so to speak. Jesus took GREAT exception to the money-changers and all of the commerce, business shennanigans, going on outside of the Temple. It's one of the only places in the gospels that it's said He got angry and took direct action against what He saw as being wrong. It's not quite the same as charging for the teaching of the bible, granted. I can't imagine what He would have done if faced with that, maybe gone back to the desert for 40 more days or something, I dunno. Jesus the man is idealized in the bible, of course. There's only so much there and the image it gives us of Him is expanisive while being limited. We're presented with a very simple, focused individual, complex yet accessible to those around Him. Sure, He had to have done lots of things that aren't recorded, He and his followers had to eat, sleep, have means of support. But the silence is deafening when it comes to the details. I've often wondered what His response would have been to someone coming to Him, with no ill intent, and proposing - "Hey Jesus! You've got a good thing going here - all these people that come to see you. You're a good man, you're doing some great things here...but you could do a lot better for yourself and your followers. I could help you with that...with the right approach and some support you could reach 1,000's! People will pay for this stuff, seriously! Look at this, I can see teaching centers, buildings, a whole new Temple, the "Jesus Temple"! Think about it...I mean it, we should talk..." :)--> It sounds silly, doesn't it? The seeds He planted have born fruit for 2,000 years and He never even owned a roto-tiller or a backhoe, never made a CD or a tape. But the imprint He left on those people closest to Him really made an impression. :D--> Even if none of it were true, the story stands on it's own merit in that we're talking about it today. How many classes sold today will be passed around in every language on the planet, 2,000 years from now? Anyway, yeah. The free thing.

Yes. Patterned after the instructions of Jesus to His disciples, "freely you've received, now freely give". His disciples might have argued otherwise, feeling that they had their own stories to tell on what they'd done or sacrificed or given to follow Jesus but His perspective seems clear. "The Word" may dwell in us richly but it's never ours to sell. Proverbs has a cool verse - 23:23 Buy (acquire, obtain) the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding. So a question comes to mind reading proverbs - what would I give to acquire the truth? And again, what would I take in exchange for it? "And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free". If a person desparately needs that freedom and I know it, but I make them pay for it first, what does that make me? I would propose that it lessens the message when commerce is introduced to it, dough-ski, collections, all of that, should be handled in a very fine balance amongst a congregation, church, etc. I don't mind buying books, CD's, music. Labor earns reward. I do feel that there is a very fine line that has to be observed, and one that Jesus walked very easily according to the records. He just didn't get involved with it, the commerce. Moreover when people came to hear Him, He fed THEM. "Takeout" with a twist. :)--> I don't expect a minister to turn 5 Big Mac's into a 1,000, Biggie Sized. But if the mindset of the pastor, teacher or minister is to care for those they believe God brings to them, they'll work to find a way to give them what they need. After all, who's the Provider? The people are God's, and deserve respectful treatment. Naggin' people for payments and money is degrading to everyone. For those with little or nothing, how much does it mean to be treated with dignity, to be cared for as if..."as if" you were important enough to deserve it? And for those who have a lot, how much to be able to share some good fortune with others? That's my 2 cents. Keep the change. ;)-->

"...we'll make great pets..."

Greets Tweets. SirGALot - I've read a tad of Ken Wilbur's stuff, and browsed that site link, so this is a cursory comment, I'm offering it solely based on the area that has caught my attention. 1) I do like the general idea of his "integral approach" and here's what I understand of it - it attempts to look at every part of a specific area of life and determine the commonalities in them and from that develop a composite view of how to understand that area. So if it was say, religion, all religions would be looked at and studied to glean from them the basic parts they have in common and from that would come a single, common "religious" understanding, basically a doctrine. Which I think has 2._ some value, but I think also has an inherent failing (and again I'm not familiar with the extent/all of the work he and the group have done), namely that I don't personally assume it's rational to start from a premise that all religions have a little, some or even a lot of "truth" in them simply because they have parts that are similar to (all) others - in other words common beliefs across the board don't define "truth", as all religions could have common fallacies, myths, traditions, etc. What is exactly truthful about those things could be far removed from the actual beliefs. If that's the case, I would want another means to determine what that might be. As far as the classes and seminars, I have no idea. I'm dubious of anything that promises "results" delivered in a weekend workshop, that kind of thing, because there are variables that have to be accounted for to promise anything like that. And one of the biggest is that the participant - well, fully participate, try, suspend reservation, etc. in order to fully participate in the experience. You can't promise a person will learn to swim in say, a week, if the person won't get in the water and follow instructions. So that variable has to be accounted for. Who wants to end up in silly situations where people are pressuring you to "dive in", rather than actually dealing with you as a person with your own interests and concerns? But like I say, I don't know what they actually offer or do, thess are just some obervations. Some of Wilbur's stuff I've read was interesting though.

Y'know, I was fortunate over the years, I may have had better than average hearing to begin with, because when I had a hearing test several years ago, I came up about normal, with some extra range in the mids and high ends. Given the volumes I've been exposed to over the years, I gotta wonder. Hope, I've been using the Hearos I mentioned above for years. Here's a few reviews and some decent online prices if you decide to buy: few Hearos reviews In browsing around I found this page that pulls a lot of useful information together for musicians in general: HERE. It might be helpful. The trick for a musician is to protect their ears while still hearing a realistic sound. That's what I liked about the Hearos filter plugs. I can still hear a normal blend of sound, but the volume is reduced. I even wear them at home when I'm practicing at louder volumes for any length of time. I was at Sam Ash awhile back and they had some headset 'headphone' styles in their audio section, you might check them out too. More old-timers advice - ;)--> In a practice or performance environment, it's important for everyone to position their equipment so that it's pointing towards them, without anything inbetween blocking (as much as possible). Guitarists and bassists, etc. P.A. monitor speakers should be near the ones who need to hear them. That sounds obvious, but it's amazing how often bands try to accomodate everything else in the setup BUT their own best setup to hear the music their playing. So everyone slowly creeps up their volumes so they can hear themselves and it gets louder than it needs to be. Drummers are surrounded by their own sound, so hear-plugs that do a good job of filtering are a GOOD idea. :)-->

Hi PT, thankfully, no. (my hearing's acute in certain ranges, although I'm not sure if the edges have been rounded off a little over the years, probably has been). But - for those considering protection, there's Hearos They're inexpensive. For concerts, where you'd want to get the level down below 90 descibels they do a good job. I've tried the American, Super and Extreme, and "Super" does a good job. I prefer the foam style, sound still transmits through them pretty evenly. You can carry them easily, I keep them in the car glove box so I always have them handy. For noise reduction in "normal" surroundings, I like 'em. (half the task is having them when you need them!). Speaking of concerts - for years the loudest concert I'd been to was The Who, late 60's, at the old Fillmore in San Francisco. When Townsend swung his Telecaster over his head and slammed it down on the floor full throttle it sounded like a car'd been dropped in the room. Then I saw Pearl Jam in the mid-90's with my kids at the reopened Waldorf in S.F. Absolutely set a new standard. They were very good for that kind of music, but it redefined loud for me. That's when I started looking around for my kids!

Hi all. I'm praying Mrs. W. will do as well as she can in her final years. She was a very considerate person when I knew her, thoughtful. Often the only one to rememember the little things that were very important to my wife and I, things others didn't know or forgot if they did. I have a wonderful, loving mother who's always been there for me so I never saw her in quite the same 'motherly' role as many, but I know she offered her time and love to many, many people who really appreciated it. I would hope that people on all sides of the fence will consider their options with sensitivity, dignity and as much personal integrity as they can muster. Life - when it goes it seems it was barely here. Yet the golden moments seem to last for an eternity in our memories, if nowhere else. Every new day we make more memories to savor! Whatever they are, make some you'll be proud to have passed on. Love you all. -->

Maybe VP didn't have the right people in those PFAL classes. If you wanted it, liked it, got something out of it - you'd complete it. If you absolutely didn't want anymore after a certain point, you could just walk out regardless. "Well, THAT was the biggest waste of time and money". People did that. If you're being held hostage by the money, that just seems like the wrong thing to be setting up, IMO. If you're mainly being brought back by the fact you paid for it but would rather not be there, you should say so and get your money back. If it's "Geez! I'd rather be home watching the game but I paid for this class so I guess I gotta go tonight... Whare's that at? Hey, go watch the game. Root for the home team! Yaaaae! Giants!!! It's good business to get full payment or at least a good down payment on something you're selling if a person says they want to buy it. If what you're selling is bible teaching, that is absolutely the wrong business to be in IMO. Bible no = commodity. Bible = God's Word.

That's the tr'oof! I don't miss cassettes. I've got a bunch of old reel to reel tape stuff that's turned up. In fact, a box of old stuff from the late 60's showed up last year from a basement - had some really funny stuff on it. Amazing. I opened the boxes, laid the reels out. Looked at them. Slowly unwound some of the tape. Finally put 'em on an old deck. Bingo. Played like it was 1970. :D--> By comparison it's like walking compared to flying. It's so labor intensive, the loading, fast forwarding, back and forth. It's kind of fun. For about 5 minutes.

Hey Belle, maybe it is. --> If not, that's great to hear. It's not a rarity! :D--> Luke 12:13 And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me. 14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you? Jesus taught give to Caesar what's his, give to God what's His. A church - you'd think that would be a great place to learn how to bring balance to life. But it's the hardest place to do it sometimes. When the balance tips toward business, it's a challenge. Don't mix God and mammon, trust in God and work as best we can at what we do. It's not that hard to at least try to do if a person had the mind to.

Likewise, Jr. I know what you mean. It really makes a person stop and think about what's really important in life.

Belle, I was talking about this topic with my wife yesterday. She's been going off an on to a local church on Sundays and really enjoying it. I started going recently and it has, literally, blessed me. Something I noticed immediately was how easy going and happy everyone that was doing things at the service was. Example - they have a bookstore. They sell books and muisc CD's, bible, etc. After the service they've got a little side room off the bookstore where they have a CD dupilcator where they can burn 5 CD's at a time. They record the service at their sound board, pop the CD original in and if you wait a few minutes, they sell them - for 3 bucks each. Nice printed labels. Pretty cool. Everything's pretty cheap but get this - they don't have a register to ring up your purchases. They have a box someone made labelled "The Honesty Box". :)--> There's someone from the church there to help people find stuff but they don't have to mess around with the money. You just put it in the box. I heard a woman Sunday saying "I wanted to get this today, and don't have enough. Can I pay for it next Sunday?" Sure. This church does quite a bit with 3 weekend services, 1 on Saturday and 2 on Sunday. They have a pretty advanced production set up. Stage, lights hung in the top of the church. 3 large screens for projection. A pretty cool sound system. A sound board and battery of wireless mic's, and other gear. There's a set on the altar/stage for the theme that's being taught on and they have little skit/vignettes each week that members do themselves. They've got a really good 'band' and singer. Saturday night they do a casual hour or so of music of all kinds before the service. People go and hang out. It's like a night out kind of thing, I guess. The band does the praise and worship part of each service too. Lyrics projected on those screens, all of that. They serve coffee and donuts before each service. I don't drink coffee and don't need more doughnuts :D--> but it smells so good I had to have a cup. It's cool. The seats in the church have-coffee holders. Little drink holder thingies. You can grab a cup, sit down, sing, pray, hear a great service teaching. And I mean great. This guy who's the pastor takes about 20 minutes and really gets to it. The whole thing lasts an hour, almost to the minute. Having done set up and music and whatever else for so many years in the Way, I've seen how difficult it can be for people if it's not planned well and if they're pressured to do more than they can really do. But at this church, they've got lots of different people doing all kinds of stuff and- there's no pressure to be seen or felt. At all. It almost made me cry. I'm serious. And these guys have had some hard times along the way. My wife told me last year the church got broken into. Twice. They had all kinds of equipment stolen. Had to start over. Along the way they got a very good security system. ;)--> The pastor's been there for a few years and has built from the ground up. They've got about 800? members I think. They have a lot of things they do for their youth too, the whole range of ages. My point and what we were talking here about is - you can see the intent and purpose of the pastor in how the whole thing's run. He's not sucking these people dry to "do something". He's got their interests at heart. They all do a very good job, but no one's yelling, no one's sweating it. He's got it so that the people that support the church can share and contribute, and with some dignity to it. Joy. No big deal, no pretense. No "look at us, our God must be really great" kind of attitude. I saw trust, respect. Energy, work. Honor, dignity. And some people wear shorts and t-shirts to the services. You gotta love that. I mean, if someone was tight on cash, this church's activities would truly represent a way to connect and enjoy life a little once or twice a week. And if you had some cash, you could share it without wondering or maybe even caring how it was used because you can see the use right in front of you, and you'd want to particpate and enjoy because there's something to actually enjoy. Why, it's downright Christian there .

Jesus actually did pass the basket once Himself - to feed the people He taught. :)-->

True! It's funny - there's a digital effect to add that into music when it's not there. Cute. I was reading an article here Chas, comparing various download services. Did anyone mention eMusic yet? I haven't heard of that one. There's a few out there. Guess iTunes is now the biGGie for pay sites.