socks

Thinking of religion and what we do with it...two songs came to mind, the first, "Power in the Blood, by A3. This song, the music, makes the perfect statement of religious intolerance.. It's uh, irony. I think. "Power in the Blood" - A3 No time for spindoctor’s medicine Cooked up by the government, selling me some cover-up Sponsored information, crack pipes in the shopping malls Nothing but another drug, a license they can buy and sell I don't mind a-dying I don't mind dying I don't mind dying When that call it comes, I will be ready for war No time for backhanded compliments From bourgeois apologists desperate for an incident Real-estate assassins, assessing my predicament My dollar bills dependent upon it being in their interest I don't mind a-dying I don't mind dying I don't mind dying When that call it comes, I will be ready for war CHORUS There is power in the blood, justice in the sword When that call it comes, I will be ready for war Power in the blood, justice in the sword When that call it comes, I will be ready I will raise mah sword up right To the bright and shining light, Stained crimson red with the blood of the unredeemed And as I cut them limb from limb, and I dash all their kith and kin, You know, their bodies I will bury in the deep Because there's power in the blood. Ha huh. There's power in the blood. I don't mind a-dying I don't mind dying I don't mind dying When that call it comes, I will be ready for war, cause CHORUS There is power in the blood, justice in the sword When that call it comes, I will be ready for war Power in the blood, justice in the sword When that call it comes, I will be ready Or, another way.... "Shower the People" - James Taylor You can play the game and you can act out the part Though you know it wasn’t written for you But tell me, how can you stand there with your broken heart Ashamed of playing the fool One thing can lead to another; it doesn’t take any sacrifice Oh, father and mother, sister and brother If it feels nice, don’t think twice CHORUS Just shower the people you love with love Show them the way that you feel Things are gonna work out fine if you only will Shower the people you love with love Show them the way you feel Things are gonna be much better if you only will You can run but you cannot hide This is widely known And what you plan to do with your foolish pride When you’re all by yourself alone Once you tell somebody the way that you feel You can feel it beginning to ease I think it’s true what they say about the squeaky wheel Always getting the grease. CHORUS Better to shower the people you love with love Show them the way that you feel Things are gonna be just fine if you only will Shower the people you love with love Show them the way that you feel Things are gonna be much better if you only will Shower the people you love with love Show them the way that you feel

You're the youngest, right P-ie? All you have to point out is "isn't it great Mom and Dad kept having more kids till they got one they really liked, and then they could stop." Wins every argument. Or try this-if someone starts to say- "Oh Psalmie, you're always so sensitive, there's no - " You interrupt and say: "I just noticed - I'm so glad we got together to talk, as I just realized my butt's going to sag like yours as I age, if I don't get more exercise now...yes....now what were you saying?" One way to look at it is that if they aren't coming back, make a last impression.

I think I heard about this, on Corps Tape # 2,456 titled "The Fungus Among Us - Infiltration Techniques of the Enemy". You always had trouble...toeing the line, didn't ya??? B)

Between the Major Balls and Pricks, Exceeshee, I may not sleep well tonight. But I've found a new sig, thanks to your storee J.L.! A classic. That line....Translated, according to Howard Allen: "You were fee-shing, weren't you Jonny?" According to Don Weirwille: "Uh, well. Dad said you were fishin', Jonny". According to LCM: "Only homo's fish in the morning instead of cuddling up close to me at the head table and eating breakfast here with me!!!" According to Harve Platig: "You will only prevail in victorious fishing when your life is in alignment with the household breakfast".

Mark, understood. I didn't get the impression you're evangelizing, just stating your views on your religious choice. That's fine, it's your choice. Buuuut you may be reading into posts emotion that isn't there. Either way, for the record, I have no "rage" either. It's difficult to communicate the tone of these words in a post, so picture what I'm saying as being conversational. The fact that I was a Catholic at one time and am not one now doesn't mean I left the Catholic church hurt, angry, raged, or anything like that. My comments are critical, but they're not angry. I was raised Catholic, and later as I grew into making my own decisions, I left active participation in the church. I certainly retained some of what I felt was of value to me and left the rest. It's not really that complicated, there's really no emotion involved in my thoughts here. I'd also say that in normal relationships if someone asked me the question that was asked on this thread topic, I'd probably respond very moderately, as I did initially. If a person is looking for something, church, fellowship, growth in their life as a person, answers to needs or questions, and felt they wanted to check out the R.C. church, I'd respond, great, you may like it, let me know what you think if you do. Given an opportunity, if we spoke about it more, I'd be more interested in what it is they're looking for and need. There's lots available. If R.C-ism fills some or all of that need, I can celebrate the success that person has. At the same time though an adult making a lifetime committment to "be" a Catholic is going to deal with some of these issues in the RCIA's. But babies being baptized don't deal with issues, they're given the sacrament. As one matures, through First Communion and Confirmation and continued involvement and training the full doctrine is learned and absorbed. That's the way I learned it. Apostolic succession is a non-issue with me. I don't accept it, period. Has nothing to do with the men selected or their performance or weaknesses, I don't accept the office and that interpretation of Matthew and Jesus's words, so it doesn't matter to me who fills it. But I understand where you're coming from, I think. If you're happy, great. I think some of the beliefs are wrong, but if you're not hurting anyone or breaking the law and basically living a civil life you're fine with me, as are all R.C.'s. If you're getting something out of it, great. Friends I have that are members of the church aren't horrible people, they're generally pretty nice. Many Catholic apologists take the stance that criticisms of the faith are due to misunderstanding of the finer points of the doctrine and the heart and intent. I didn't misunderstand what I was taught, I followed it for many years and pursued it through my teen years. I was a Catholic, and once the choice was up to me I chose to continue my learning and growth. That growth ultimately led me to not be a Roman Catholic anymore.

I do Tonto. Old Guys like me need rest. Jonny, I like Buckwheat Zydec, what I'v heard! It's funky, noisy good music! dmilller, Charlie Musselwhite is alive and well! He lives up in Northern California, sports a cool goatee these days and everything I read about him always notes that he's off the booze and doing well. Years ago, when he came out to California from Chicago, he had a bad habit of turning up late, to the point that one little joint-gig I was playing at with my band where he was headlining, the guitarist got p.o.'d he was so late so he split. So I jammed a couple tunes with his rhythm section and then he showed up, and finally his guitarist showed back up. Charlie had a big old green thermos and a little briefcase of harps. The thermos was filled with wine and he'd dip his harps in them, shake them out, take a shot and just go into a tune. No name, no intro. Just blow. He was incredible, still is. He'd never remember me or the countless little gigs he played all over northern California back in the late 60's I'm sure, but there was some HOT soulful harp playing.

Well, call me a working class bum Mark, but I don't quite buy the view you're presenting of the current Catholic church, nor that the vast network of parishes in the western U.S. and the education they provided was deficient in passing on what the true essence of the Catholic faith (was). The Code of Canon Law has been under development for a long time. Subjection to the pope as the Vicar of Christ, Peter or whomever as a critical requirement to salvation is just one item of many. I dont choose to recognize his authority, spiritually or politically. That's not to deny that there isn't a great deal of value in Catholicism. Like I say, they've got some of the best buldings around. I still credit those 10 years of education I got with instilling in me my interest in literature and philosophy, as well as some of the best "old school" readin', writin' and 'rithmetic skills when compared to others my own age. Plus, one of the recent popes made a great statement I read not long ago. He was on a plane and a writer was along, and he asked the pope what he thought about the statements being made about the tragedy of 9/11 and that it was an action of judgment by god. The writer said the pope stopped and paused and said "it is not an easy thing to know the intentions of god". I thought that was an interesting statement, certainly an honest one coming from him in both how he sees himself and how he knows others see him.

Major Prick? Isn't he under Commander C- oh, never mind. T.J. isn't he the red haired guy, I seem to remember he looked like a little like Elton John, but with red hair and skinnier? It's always so strange to read about these guys and their temper tantrums. Bad behavior, conduct unbecoming an orifice. But oh how far the mighty fall! With less and less people to scream at, all the Lance Corporal Cleetus's will have only each other to gnaw at! Ya gotta figure one of these days someone's going to blow a gasket and ream themselves out for being so incompetent, just to keep in practice!

Sounds tough. I do sympathize. :( No easy answer here, other than the cheap kind. Tell them how you feel, tell them you want an opportunity to get some stuff on the table, honestly, and TALK about it. Not just defend yourself against silence. Easy, huh? I know it's not. Maybe the time won't be right. Maybe it will. This may be why we call them "holidaze". We're fortunate at this point, everyone we're close to seems to understand that everyone has lives, and we want to see each other and enjoy it when we do. It may be short or long, but the time slips by quicker and quicker it seems and there's never enough. I hope this works out for you, I really do. It can! It will. Or it won't and you can always have a big bowl of mashed potatoes ready to lety fly!!!!!! Wet gooey mashed potatoes, the kind that stick in the nose and ears and slides down the walls when it misses!!!

Well, speaking of John Prine, saw him on Austin City Limits Saturday night. Sweet. He was with Amos Lee, A la. Very nice set by him. :)

Not that this is the Doctrinal Forum ( can't be, too many people posting ) but the subject of works "versus" grace has intrigued me of late, the semantics of it. If the question was framed like this: "Lord, what must I do to be saved?" Would the answer be: "Nothing. You don't have to do anything"....... ? Framed another way, the question again: "Lord, what must I do to be saved? Shall I...." And the answer again: "No - you're doing something. Stop it. I said don't do anything". If the same question were asked and the answer was: "Believe on me and what I've done for you, and you will be saved"......... ....is the answer "something"? I'm not posing the question to be funny or argumentative. Just that I think for many years when I thought of "saved by grace" I associated it with doing "nothing". But I'd say that it should be associated with something, believing on what Jesus Christ accomplished for me, in my stead, and that's now being provided to me as a "gift"....If I believe on Him. That's something. Isn't it? Granted it's not a merit system where I earn certain things from God based on my performance, it's not "works of the flesh" that make me cool with God. But there is a working of the heart involved, as to how I see myself and how I see God. Questions that come to mind - what and how much do I have to know about Jesus Christ to "believe on Him" and be saved? What do I have to understand? Accept and embrace? If I thought I was just fine as I was but hey, Romans 10:9 and 10 gives me even MORE, would I be "saved"? Is that what Jesus Christ accomplished, and why? Okay, back to the topic at hand.

Hmmm...if we're talking about whether the Way taught salvation by works, the answer would be no, at least for most of it's history that I know of. But it's performance based teachings and fellowship could certainly create the same kind of environment if all a person was hearing about was what they were doing - their "works". The best part of Christian fellowship should be good times, happy times, even in hard times. Encouragement, understanding, forgiveness, these are the hallmarks of a good church fellowship in my opinion. But, choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. If all the Way is to a person is a place that's not as bad as someplace else, how good can that really be? I like most Roman Catholics I meet, on average. They're about like everyone else, as befuddled about what they believe as most. I was raised Roman Catholic with 10 years of RC teaching. There's the Pope, the priesthood, Communion, confession of your sins to a priest (if you can find one - I know one church that doesn't have any confessional sacrament anymore, they just ask people to do it themselves, which is kind of weird to an old schooler like me, but hey). Saints, the Virgin Mary as your Mediatrix, prayer rituals like the rosary. Lots of stuff to keep you busy if you go whole hog into it. For me it's just too weird, almost as weird as shopping in a Wal Mart or trying to pick brands out in grocery stores while navigating the aisles, but that's me. I do like the churches though, the architecture, stained glass. The latin mass - I was an "altar boy" so even still have some semblance of understanding of some of the mass, but overall the latin mass rocks - the way it sounds. Plus churches are usually big, so they have that echo thing going. They provide an interesting choice of locations for a meditative hour or so.

I'd like to offer a link to a site that I've been reading up on, that sort of relates to the general topic. It's Church Marketing Sucks One of the best links is "Marketing is Secondary". Your post reminded me of this, Raven. To me, it's an extremely funny site. They make some good points. Its' not quite obvious what they're doing, it takes a little poking around I found. But it's a funny site. I'm pondering a communication to them. It caught my eye as years ago I realized a great truth in life :blink: (ahem) "Life is cool - when it doesn't suck". And the reverse welled up in my soul immediately upon pondering that voice in the wind: "Life sucks when it isn't cool". (I share this only in the hope that it may bring some light to the souls of our youth as they step forward into the light of a new day and consider what to do with all that energy. No renumeration of any kind is necessary if it does you good, only your heartfelt and lifelong recognition of me, forever. Just don't try to fix me. That would be disrespectful.)

Hey dmiller, I'm checking out Compton with Michael Greier now. Nice stuff! "Black Mountain Rag". Love the sound of his mandolin, recorded really intimate on this one. And speaking of - well, we could be, guitarists - if you need to check out some truly string stretching electric guitar, check out Harvey Mandell. AKA "The Snake". I've been following him since the 60's when he played with Charlie Musselwhite. He's played with a lot of people and still plays now with a band named "Nightfire". I want to catch them live.

I was thinking earlier I had been too busy this year to see too many performances, but one I did catch was at the Healdsburg Luthier's show this year. saw a few showcases and Don Alder performed. He's out of Vancouver Canada, an excellent finger style guitarist. He told me he works some in Washington and Oregon, so might be worth watching out for. He really plays well, using a percussive style of hammering on, and the body. Also this guy, Tommy Emmanuel, an Australian finger style guitarist. He's fairly well known. I attended a workshop/performance he did, with my daughter and he was absolutely incredible. Very down to earth and approachable, open to discussing his stuff. Travels with his guitars, amp and mic system and completely manages every part of his performance gear, which he keeps very simple. A good CD is his latest, "Endless Road". His song "Man with the Green Thumb" is classic T.E. sounds, dedicated to Chet Atkins. :) Plus his playing, with the use of artificial harmonics in arpeggiated scales will knock you back. Watching him I realized he does it as well as it can probably be done. But he also said he's all about "the groove", he wants to entertain and make people happy. He had something of a "spiritual" quality about him when he played in that he was completely committed to the moment - with you along for the ride. Seemed to be a very giving person. Well worth whatever it takes to get to see him live, if you haven't.

Don't encourage me Nato. The Rick James being quoted in a satire by Dave Chappelle - 's all good!! I'm just hurt that the Way "missed it" and let the internet get invented and taken over by Mr. Satan. A little known but true fact - and this is really true - is that way back in the 70's VPW talked about communication in a meeting and talked about how it would be great if regular people had a way to just sit at their desks and communicate with each other and type back and forth with messages and information. I don't remember the context but it was before the PC. Given that the state of PC's as a communication device was just past the garage-programmer stage, it was a rather interesting sounding idea. Maybe he read about it somewhere but he certainly picked up on the idea clearly. Interesting. But I can hear it now - "well, we just aw-fer our web-saht as a...suh-vice to our peo-puhl, to blay-us them, so if peo-puhl want to crit-sahz, wa-hl, they can just go raht ahay-yud". Which is kind of like the Captain of the Titanic telling his Navigator "yeah yeah yeah, there's always a lot of ice this time of year". Or something.

Whoa! That's very cool, IGO! For a guy who loves to say "Hit me!" he's held up pretty good. Hmmm....the beheading is an old story that's grown wings over the years. Actually I just lost my head one day and said I was feeling good, when what I really meant to say was "internal convictions based on principles that I've learned and am activating by believing action are producing positive results".

I typed in Rosaree Rovanback ( a little known castanet virtuoso out of Minnesota - if you like wooden hand percussion instruments <and who doesn't!!> check out her first release on Cryno Records titled "Puttin' the Ha! Back in Cha Cha!" ... it's awesome! ) and accidentally surfed to the picture on this site of the current pres of the Way Nash. Needless to say it was disturbing. Paw - recommendation - a warning pop up on that photo link that gives the user 30 seconds to think it over and back out. Worst of all, Google kept giving me these "Did You Mean..." corrections to the search words that for some unexplainable reason kept sending me into the website for the San Diego Zoo. I'm tellin' you, the web is a scarey place.

It came as quite a shock to me too, dawna. Apparently Satan is 28 years old, wears glasses, eats Cheetos and Pepsi for breakfast, has a degree in Communications but still has to use Spell Check, loves Halo, thinks Angelie Jolie would marry him if she would just answer his emails and fully intends to pay off his college loans as soon as his parents decide to do the remodel to his room and he has to move out and start figuring out how to charge money for his mod's to Firefox. But it's true, there's nothing on their website, although I'd bet good money a Big Announcement is being planned right now, for 2008, as to some dramatic additions that will really bless a lot of people. Perhaps the introduction to a new book title "Why Debt is Bad But First A Word As To Why You Owe Us A Large PerCentage of Every Nickel You'll Ever Earn" with a preface explaining why it took 12 years for the various Trustees, Alumnae Trustees, Trustee wives, Trustee Children, past and present, to give their approval and with a 5 page disclaimer stating why they're not responsible for anything contained in it if there's a lawsuit. Something I did notice is how often the word "enjoy" is used on their website. They use it all over the place, even on their Agreements page. They seem fixated on enjoyment. Which is weird. Because there's nothing enjoyable about the website unless you like the pathologically programmed rollovers on the homepage that change so fast and so meaninglessly they'd make Ghandi curse like a sailor, trying to use them.

Well now I won't shut up. For Melanie Redman, I've seen her name around and will check her out, I believe I've heard a tune of hers on KFOG up here. Thanks. :) I have to say Tower of Power and Cold Blood in one night was really nice. Tower's got this drummer, forget his name, plays quite well. And CB's got a sax player that's not bad either. :D But it's the kind of music that, if you like funk and rock, does it all. Great stuff.

I'm going to check those out Jim. Cello has such a great sound. I like the music on a release titled "Apalachia Waltz" that has Yo Yo Ma playing on it. Nice stuff. I could see the similarity in that a big part of 'classical' composition is melodic development, variations, etc. There's a great quote in Ken Burns 'Jazz" series where they're discussing what Jazz is. One of the people compare rock and Jazz and say - "rock finds a place and stays there. Jazz finds a place and goes somewhere". I think that description carries both the strengths and weaknesses of both, although modern recording provides some assistance. Setting a groove and staying on it is what rock does. Good rock (I think) makes the statement, plays with it and repeats it enough to move you along. Then ends and leaves you wanting to put another quarter in the box to hear it again. Bad rock assumes you need to hear the idea 1,000 times before you really get it. Jazz gives the opportunity to make a statement and then compose around it, extemporaneously and develop that idea with others. So to that end I can see with melodic and harmonic depth in the music, Jazz does a blues-based version of what 'classical' composition does. I think you'll like Ted Green, jardinero. My daughter saw him this year, a month before he died, at school. Apparently it was difficult to get him to come out in public for the workshop, took 2 years I understand. She said he did a rendition of "Blackbird" that was - if you get the CD you'll understand what he might do with that song and why teachers flock to him to learn. I was working on getting a lesson with him as he taught out of his home but he was unable to do it when I was in town. :( I have all his instructional books, an original signed by Ted now, thanks to my daughter. He was a Well of Knowledge. And Knopfler - great stuff. With Atkins, oh yeah! I love Atkins playing. A classic piece of fluff he did years ago titled "Copper Kettle" plays like another so-so version until he does his solo which he ended with a rip of a sweep arpeggiated run that was years before Van Halen got a hold of the technique. Wonderful stuff. Along those lines I'd always recommend a trip to see Kenny Burrell, who plays in the San Francisco bay area sometimes. Seen him a couple times and it's always a joy. As to Julien Kaspar, he's very difficult to categorize. He's a composer, that's for sure. He's very unique, mellow stuff is - well, you have to hear him. He's one of the few people I've heard (recorded) that I can't quite describe except that he's playing an electric guitar, a Stratocaster I believe. My Girls have seen John Mayer several times, and I went to see him a few months ago. He's doing a trio on his latest tour and mostly playing blues tunes, backed by bass and drums. He's a good blues player, no question about it although I'm interested now in how he's going to incorporate it into his writing which is where he seems to be going. He doesn't seem locked into copying Hendrix or Vaughn or King forever, so he might be interesting to follow as he works it out.

Well, not being a drinker to speak of I can still appreciate the offer of a free brandy. I'd say give it a whirl. Can't beat the stained glass.

hmmmm....moi? lesseee...thanks for asking! Ted Green - you can buy his CD here - HERE - Exceptional solo guitarist, jazz. Passed away this year. Something of a recluse, so this is about the only recording of him and it's reissued. Worth a listening. If you play guitar, your ears will be pleased. :) Ted's passing make sad. Gerry Leonard - keep his "Spooky Ghost" release on and around. Check out "Spellbound". He's a guitarist who plays with quite a few well known artists. Unusual music. Stravinsky, Rite of Spring. "Harbingers of Spring" is a favorite. Igor pretty much invented heavy metal in Rites, all the rhythmic stuff is there, without the bad hair. I've been going through the whole biscuit lately, a little at a time. Greg Leisz - lap steel guitarist who plays with lots of solo artists. Check out "Santo's Dream" if you can find it. Truly amazing. Little Jimmy Thackery and the Drivers - good ol' solid blues rock. Nice version of "Mercury Blues". Studebaker John and the Hawks - ditto on the blues-o. Nice slide guitarist. Workin' man's music. Me work need music. Julien Kaspar - electric guitarist out of the northeast. Unusual songs and music, electric rock style but very creative. Check out 'Home Time" for an idea of his sound and "Flippin' Time" for his be boppy electric thing. Dougie Maclean - celtic, Irish folk music, 's all good. Kings of Leon - guitar rock. If you watch TV you've heard "Molly's Chambers". Erin McKeowin - female singer, guitarist, songwriter. Just like the sound of it. Maia Sharp - female singer, very nice sound. System of a Down, Merle Haggard, Hillsongs - pretty much anything they've got out there. James Brown, all the early stuff. Bootsy Collins, older Fishbone. Backstreet Boys. I know. I know. But there's some good songs there. Okay, be selective if you value your brain. That's my IPod, pret' near. Saw James Taylor earlier this year, he did some different tunes this tour. Great, as always. Tower of Power and Cold Blood - one hot night at the Fillmore. If you need to feel good about yourself and who doesn't, check them out.

Where's a moderator when you need one? Allan, in case you didn't know or hadn't heard, public beheadings have been illegal for quite some time, since Nixon resigned if I remember correctly. Even at the Way it's darned near impossible to get the appropriate licensing, and the paperwork - forget about it. By the time you've done the legwork it's not even worth it. In fact, I don't believe the Way allows physical dismemberments on the property anymore, at all. Without written permission, given in advance, and of course an escort, in which case I think you can use part of the Way Woods for such events, but only on weekdays as clean up is a bitch and they park the bus that comes in from Dayton for the SNS's out there now on Sundays. So that's out too, practically speaking. Pretty much it's just no fun there anymore. For God's sake, you can't even turn someone over to Satan at lunch anymore without getting a butt full of grief from somebody. There's always some sadsack sure to start a whispering campaign about it not being "loving" or some such tripe. Please, no more beheading talk.

Aaah, I always like to log in. .... . "please wait while we transfer you ... . " DAMN that's got a kick to it! Well, Cutcap, can I get paid for my storeez now? If so, put it towards my new book, "PFAL LITE". Chapter one puts the fix on the whole Law of Believing topic. Titled "It Is What It Is", it's sure to thrill. The more I think about it I can think of several reasons why Way Youth would, if not actually leave, sit close to the door. Herewith therefore, some. Of the reasons: This quote from the Agreedments and Stuff page of the Way.orc site.... That's a head scratcher. How would I indirectly inhibit another "user" of their web site from using and enjoying it? Let alone restrict someone, indirectly? Apparently the Way anticipates levels of mischief beyond even ne'er-do-wells like me, because I can't figure that one out. Here I would be...using the web site...and...restricting someone from...enjoying it...but...indirectly.... What if a person suddenly started shoving pencils in their ears because they'd accidentally listened to one of those videos and in an effort to stop the insanely repititive regurgitation of auditory abuse were about to do themselves physical harm and I knocked the pencil out of their hand and yanked the plug of the computer out of wall and turned on some Staind tunes to cheer them up? Would that qualify? Or would it be too direct? Speaking of music, that's another reason Way Youth may be leaving. Kids love that stuff, music. The Way has no music. Maybe they're out getting their IPods loaded up. I suspect there may be more reasons, if they are leaving. Maybe they're all holing up in some cabin in Wyoming, planning the Great Revitalization of the Way, waiting it out till Rosalie and Harve finally give in to their secret yearnings and run off together to Mexico, after which the Way Kidlings can slowly gain the confidence of the remaining Trustees to the point they'll get jobs at the Way in housekeeping where they can work for 25 years, proving their faithfulness and steadfastness in the Household, at which point they'll be in their 50's and finally be ready to maybe plan a Big Comeback and start bringing back the Asphalt Doo's on Saturday nights in the courtyard. Then they can finally present their suggestions, get kicked out, marked and avoided and get back to Wyoming again, where, if they're lucky, they can group together to plan the Next Great Undertaking. With their grandkids. It might work.