socks

Wow, Finnegan doing the Doo. :blink: It's been a long time, but has it been THAT long? :) I have to say I wouldn't enjoy that either, fine friend. :) Couple more thoughts - AKA "to everything there is a season"....and really just a longer more boring version of what EX10 just posted. the words decently and in order are used in the context of "charismata". Paul says "all things", and at the expense of bridging the PFAL gap, it begs the question "all WHAT things"? It's not a PFAL thing to want to determine that. A simple read of the english seems to say all the things he's been talking about. He's been describing the use of spiritual gifts/manifestations/stuff when the Corinthians come together and how they should be done. Obviously the orderliness of their use will contribute to how effective they are. If there's pandemonium, verbal pushing and shoving and inconsiderate activity the whole thing goes in the toilet. In general, as advice, sure. Don't wig out if it's not a Rave Party. Show some cool here. In another place he talks about their eating together, another activity they shared. There he reminds them to basically not be respectors of people and social status. Indeed, Jesus taught the first shall be last, the meek will inherit the earth, to treat one another as we ourselves want to be treated and to be willing to forgive others their debts to us. Letting the rich and influential of the congregation have first dibs on the food must have sucked for everyone else. You get treated like crap everywhere else, and then you come to fellowship with your "family" and they make you move to the end of the line because you're poor. Have a nice day. I don't doubt they partied at times. Sometimes celebration is in order, right? Authentic behavior is the key, to me. Different activities have different appropriate practices. I'd say, the N.T. provides both instruction and direction. Some things - this is it. Other things, do it like this. We live 2000 years later in our own times and with our own lives. We have the opportunity to decide. There has to be room for flexibility. The stiff tree breaks in the wind and dies, where the palm tree bends and survives, nothing lost. I think some Christian thought misses that - I've read, spirit is like water. It moves in different ways in different forms but it finds it's way everywhere. John 3:8 The wind blows where it wants, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I just noticed "raisin" holy hands...are they California Raisins? I may sound conflicted WhiteDove, but I think you raise some good points. I see "decent and in order" as sound advice in an environment where people come to pray and worship God together. Paul had a reason for writing it to the Corinthians. When God's people fellowship together there should be an awareness of the honor and dignity of such an event as well as the joy, the happiness of it all. It shouldn't be cold or sterile, but it shouldn't be a train wreck either. In the church we've been attending off and on, the services run in sections. There is music at the start, singing. At some point the pastor welcomes everyone and may speak for a bit, and there's more music. Not everyone does the hands thing. Some do at times. Most sing, some don't and just listen. I would say it's very open and enthusiatic, while being very peaceful and quite literally "decent and in order". That has a lot to do with the Pastor. There's a lot of people involved but he appears to be very aware and watchful without being overbearing. There's an air of respect, I'd call it. EX10, that's interesting. It's always a matter of being engaged from the heart, isn't it?

Bliss, for some reason I want to say this went back to the Way's view of "holy rollers", and what people in some churches did when they spoke in tongues. Gettin' crazy, jumping around, possess-o, that stuff. Can't quite place it though and that explanation would be pretty old. I think there was a connection made there between the two that "queered" the whole thing, like "oh glawry Pete, I'm so full o' the Lawd I just gotta raise my hands and pray-uz Him I can' he'p myself!!"....lack of control. I think VPW viewed it like an unauthorized bathroom break, maybe. I think one of the attractive things about the early Way was that there weren't a lot of rituals attached on to the fellowship. Sit on the floor, sit on a chair, sit in a church, meeting room, outside, whevever. Outside of the things that were believed to be important elements of the faith, there wasn't an enforced order of service or specific way to do things. Georgraphically and culturally there was flexibility. Plus, I've said it before, I first went to the Way Nash in 1970, couple times that years for a few weeks and the SNS's were hot deals in those days. Dororthy and Rhoda pumping the keyboards..."I SAW THE LIGHT!".....VPW doing the Preacher's Strut at the podium, his hair and tie all over the place by the time he'd be done. Not all the time, but it could get going as I recall. The people from the Ohio area that went ranged from quiet in the seat types to people shoutin' AMEN! and GLORY! here and there. I still remember vividly an elderly woman slappin' her bible and clapping as VPW hit his mark on something and her yelling "Oh, he's so CUITE! He just loves the Lord!" When people woud "manifest" they'd get into it. Couple times heard people sing prophesy, out of nowhere. I'm serious - here I'm a long haired boy from the Left Coast and wondering what I've walked into. So for a lot of people more introverted or less inclined to publis displayes of emotion it was very nice. It wasn't a church service where you bobbed up and down in a pew or on a kneeler for an hour, nor was it a deal where some preacher was in your face asking if you were saved or not. It could reflect who you are/were, not so much what someone else said you should or had to be. Others liked expression, and that could be there too. But if I look back to the early years, late 60's era, I think most of us weren't as inclined to the churchy hand raising stuff and more of a youthful response, informal, relaxed. EX10, I love those verses you posted. I do agree, as I've grown and changed personally I see the need for meaningful ritual and expression of one's own thoughts and convictions. The churches I've been to that have people "raising hands" are very joyful celebrations of faith and prayer. Being a musician, I can appreciate this. You've got your shoe-gazing types, your boppin' and rockin' types. There's nothing like throwing your head back and goin' for it. :) Or diggin' in for some serious arrangments. I think it's like that.

It just might! This thread has made me think, always a thrill. AOS, and the many things that developed throughout the 80's and 90's, and the effect they may have had on the financial dreams of the Way. Think about it.....in no particular order - AOS - ham handed handling of a few defenseless verses in the bible leads bewildered and grossed out audiences to ponder "What would David do?" The Tithe Defined - cheerful giving replaced by manndatory tax and tough love. No givey, no spitty in your direction. POP - Prez of the Way gets bich slapped by a guy 5,000 miles away, leading to.... The Fog Years - 3 years of paid vacation while the BOT get their heads untogether. PFAL Replaced - by a new Way class, most memorable for it's teaching about the Original Lesbian, replacing PFAL with a class that has the acronym...."WAP". Full Time Corps Employment - drains the Way's cash accounts and utlimately leads to a BOT resignation, and disrupts 100's of people's lives. Until it's cancelled and changed, again disrupting 100's of people's lives. SPECIAL RECOGNITION NOTE FOR TIME MANAGEMENT - this all takes less than two years. Homo Purge - homo hunt ushers in the era of "genuine suspicion" and "mark and avoid", ultimately leading to Way men everywhere tossing out all their flowered Hawaiian shirts. No Debt Policy - American dream to work hard, play hard, save, buy a home and raise a family replaced by new "Sell It Now and Move" policy. Genuine suspicion circulates the policy may have been started and promoted by Way Real Estate agents. SPECIAL ACHIEVEMENT CERTIFICATE: anyone's life that wasn't previously turned upside down by something gets routed out for not being "faithful". EXTRA WIN-WIN MILEAGE POINTS: around the same time bad housecleaning habits are discovered to be a major cause of much of the world's problems. The Allen Suit - straw hits the camel's back and the hump comes a-tumbling down. TRUTH STRANGER THAN FICTION NOMINATION: Settlement includes closing of WayDale, leading to Greasespot Cafe and a steady flow of posters and readers who never read WayDale. Grease Spots By Midnight - ominous threat by the Way Prez leads to miraculous resurrection of 1000's of former Way members who, having left and disappeared, return, better than ever. Just when you thought it was safe to surf - they're ba-ack. Is it me or....well, never mind. Just thinking

Dancer Boy. John Travolta was really worried, I'm sure. You may be right about that coolchef- figure John Travolta makes a career out of dancing and manages to make it look like a guy thing and still gets mileage out of it, no doubt because hey, he's Italian. Craig tries it and can't get 5 minutes onstage without people wondering if Loy is greek for "Too Tight in the Crotch". It's just toooooo weird.

Thanks outintexas. Didn't mean to get too personal there. Appreciate your response. Debt - that Debt Policy (which they now are said to deny ever existed) - was/is one of the biggest debacles of the last 20 years. Gets the award for "Worst Advice To People Planning For Their Future", hands down. And to to deny people the only thing of any dependable worth that the Way really has to offer - the local fellowship - sucks. It's just plain stupid. What would it be about being in debt - with a home mortgage - that would have such bad ramifications on a local group of people that you'd have to cut someone out of coming to it for having one? Makes no sense. Rowdy misbehavin' teenagers built the Way's foundation of membership, since Day One of the Great Expansion. That's nothing new. If that's grounds for getting the boot, Howard Allen should be working at Home Depot. They're a bunch of hypocrites. If you're High Up enough in the bureaucra-zy you get consideration, slack, the blind eye. Everybody else has to follow the "rules". Best thing about getting Out - the celebration of life you get to live everyday.

Thanks Skyrider, and y'all. So, about 93/94 was the first "incident", in the corps, that got the ball rolling. And there were others previous to that, over the years, but not made so public and not cause for a major investigaton and plan of action. Craig must have felt like this was a major infestaton and infiltration, and he pulled out all the stops to root out all the 'Mo's in the Way. So you were toast if you even "looked wrong" or suspect. If you disagreed with the evaluation of the severity of the problem or the tactics and methods being used - toast, toasted sesame seed wheat bagel, not the Genetically Sound All American White Bread variety. And I've read here before that one of the big gripes was "dishonesty". That these people were being dishonest with the "Household". Guess it takes one to know one. Here's a guy carrying on with his own "Spiritually Mature Rules For A Sound Marriage" in secret, and then this. Weird. Was he afraid that others would "catch the gay bug" or something? Naw, he wasn't concerned about the loss of revenue from booting out cash paying homosexuals. The Way wanted clean money.

Awright! We're takin' over! So, outintexas - a personal question. Why were you spiritually probated? What had you done or not done that got you so rated?

I gotcha S. Craig. I've reviewed the thread a little closer. Some others have posted thusly - that Mssr. Craigesse probably didn't think twice about the money when he was gettin' 'er done with the Homo Purging. Why a "purge", and all the baloney that went with it - "genuine suspicion", marking and avoiding? I agree with whoever said he undoubtedly felt guilty about his own activities. Maybe figured it was better to point One Middle Finger at everyone else and dodge the 4 pointing back. Smokescreen. Distract. Identify an easy enemy and a tactical approach so broad and ambiguous it would take all the concentration and time of the masses. But what got it started, what was stated? The Big Tip Off that homosexuals had infiltrated the Way? Was there an "incident" Craig identified, or something like that?

Uh...we were talking about Big Topic #2, S. Craig - Money. But you make an interesting point - sex (homo, hetero, amphibio, etc. ) and money often run hand in hand. (figuratively speaking). You're bringing the topic here back to sexual incidents, homophobia and lesbianism. One vice at a time please. We're on Greed. But then I should talk, me, about Thread Railments.

Way duh minnut.... Mark and Avoyad... That's those two guys that did Internatinal Outreach in the 80's!! I remember them now....nah, they moved on. Think they're selling Viagra on the Internet.

Brief diversion, but still on the Way's Long Standing Love Fest With Money- I read here somewhere that in the 90's, after Craig hired all the Way Corps and put them on salaries, it wasn't long before the cash reserves of the Way dried up and they were down to their last couple 100,000. I think it was less then 2 years after that bright idea was instigated. Anyone know for sure if that was the case? The way it read was the he blew up at Howard Allen for not letting him know how bad it had gotten and the whole financial debacle was the main reason H.A. took an early retirement package. Shortly thereafter new revelation came down the pike and the Way Corps was released from employment and the checks stopped coming. I always figured Howard was probably thinking he was doing the right thing according to the Man of God's (*hak kaff*) instructions and that God would provide. If that's the way it actually went, maybe God wasn't blessing what they were doing...? It would be a logical conclusion based on Way teaching. If they were really "out in left field, all tripped out babee" and going down the Wrong Road of False Revelation, then it wouldn't be the "right" God blessing them, it would be the Wrong God cursing them. Right into the Po' House. Which is almost what happened, and pretty much what did happen as it seems that after that a whole bunch of people said yet again, "this is crazeee!" and bailed. Or maybe, seriously, the Right God doesn't do math the way we do. I'd think anyone could see that if you took a large chunk of your people and 1) stopped getting money from them in tithes, and 2) started giving them money back you're going to 3) need a substantial stream of revenue to replace it to pay for 4) I don't know what but I'm sure the Log Cabin needed new furniture or something. Craig probably figured there'd be a huge influx of "new" people so the money would take care of itself, nay! it would increase. So, of course, I'm sure it figured in somewhere sometime that it was all the Way Corps' fault for not rising up - yet again - and really believing. DAMM those Way Corps! Or maybe it was really the Right God's way of pruning the Way Tree some more. (I jest on behalf of Right God's everywhere). The Ways' focus on money - yours and mine - is historic. You look too long at a Way Book - they act like you owe them your life. No place better to start than with your wallet. The problem is - and I say this seriously - they're too stupid to know how to run an organization profitably by providing useful services and goods that people would be willing to pay for. They're just not...smart, but they need and love money, yours and mine. On top of that, they seem to be downright lazy. Within their little structure they've got some teachers, geez, that's all the Way does is "teach". They could be taking all that pent up spiritual power and releasing it in the form of "work", a word they're no doubt unfamiliar with but surely remember from some distant past Corps teachings they could dig up and memorize. Again. The current crew's a little punch drunk from the last few years but they're aware enough to know they won't have a roof over their heads or a meal on their plates in another 10 years if they don't make their dough stretch. Course they could actually DO something to earn their livings, but, call me a naysayer, that just ain't gonna happen. There's not a bright bulb in the bunch, that I know of.

There's been a huge influx of these in the last couple weeks. Next thing I'll be getting them from dentists who desparately need to get a shipment of gold teeth caps into the U.S. if they can only get a little financial help. I mean, they're all over the place, I think I got 10 in the last week. "widows, business people, bankers"....all kinds of people need me to help them. It's really draining my bank account. ENDEAVOR TO READ AND REPLY Beloved one, Greetings in the name of God pls. let this not sound strange to you for my only surviving lawyer who would have done this died early this year. I prayed and got your email address from your country’s chambers of commerce, which I have been with my late husband and liked to visit once more if God will in his infinite mercies, grant me the opportunity. I am Mrs. Elizabeth Gabriel, I am 51 years old, I am deaf and suffering from a long time cancer of the breast which also affected my brain, from all indication my conditions is really deteriorating and it is quite obvious that, according to my doctors they have advised me that I may not live for the next two months, this is because the cancer stage has gotten to a very bad stage. I was brought up from a motherless babies home, was married to my late husband for twenty years without a child. My husband died in a fatal motor accident. Before his death we were true Christians. Since his death I decided not to re-marry, I sold all my inherited belongings and deposited all the sum of $12.6million dollars with a Security Company. Presently, this money is still with them and the management just wrote me as the true owner to come forward to receive the money for keeping it so long or rather issue a letter of authorization to somebody to receive it on my behalf since I can not come over because of my illness or they get it confisticated Presently, I'm with my laptop in a hospital where I have been undergoing treatment for cancer of the lungs. I have since lost my ability to talk and my doctors have told me that I have only a few months to live. It is my last wish to see that this money is invested to any organization of your choice and distributed each year among the charity organization, the poor and the motherless babies’ home where I come from. I want you God fearing, to also use this money to fund churches, orphanages and widows. I took this decision, before I rest in peace because my time will soon be up. As soon as I receive your reply I will forward to you the contact of my late husband’s attorney he will direct you on how to go about this and also send to you the contact of the security company. Remain bless yours Sister in Christ, Mrs. Elizabeth Gabriel.

It always seemed to me that Romans 16:17 aimed at doctrinal issues and divisions, that would lead the churches Paul felt responsible for away from his teaching on salvation in the grace of Christ. Those entering the fold, "wolves" amongst the sheep. That kind of activity could lead to abherrent behavior, the kind that would be damaging to people. But I don't see the context addressing that specifically there within the community of the church, the congregation. I think "common sense" says that if someone is hurting people in a community it needs to be dealt with. Things like stealing, murder, rape - that doesn't need a doctrinal thesis to determine what to do about it, to me. Paul seems to be addressing them in Romans 16:17 as he did in Galatians - hey, if they're teaching anything other than what I've taught you and leading people away from our doctrine, don't allow them free access to the group and stay away from them. The damage being done he's most concerned about is to what the people believe. I don't think there'd be any question in Paul's mind about how to handle someone who was doing real physical harm to people or at least I'd like to think so. I never had to deal directly with the Way's Mark and Avoid stuff, but if I did I'd figure, hey. I'm the same high-quality wad of human goodness I was yesterday. It's their loss, not mine. When most of us left, the party moved down the street. It's weird to me though, since a lot of Christians will parrot how they don't judge anyone, God judges, etc. then turn around and "mark and avoid" someone. That's judgment. I say call it what it is, don't dress it up in some "spiritual" language. Say "we don't want you disagreeing with what we believe and talking about it like you do so you can't come here anymore", if that's what you really mean. As for sweeping stuff under the rug, the Way's got a big broom. It makes sense they'd prefer to vandalize any memory of those who know anything different than the soppy pablum they prepretrate so perposterously it would make a Sloth break dance.

Put those matches down! No burnin's please!George, Dawkins sounds like he's the one planning a bar-b-q here. He's out to cure people, of their Faith Disease. Sounds vaguely...ominous, to me. Seriously, the language produces a vision of scholarly people in lab coats, executing procedures on witless subjects. Pop the hood, get 'er done. But "loathsome"? Strong language again. Nothing loathsome about it. This is America, the Land of the Deep Discount. If you can get the sponsors, you got the TV time. Because it's a free country. Required - to defend my faith? I've got a long pier he can jump off right now. He can stand on the street corner and hold up a sign and preach all he wants to. I'm not required to prove anything to him. If he wants to argue that's fine but pushing people into a corner and making them defend themselves is only going to turn bad. If it doesn't work for religion how is it supposed to work for him? There's nothing like getting some pompous know it all in your face thumping their finger at you telling you you've got a mental deficiency. Sounds like just another kind of fundamentalist zealotry to me. That doesn't require any faith at all to understand, I think. Only thing loathsome about it all is that people won't just leave each other alone for one fuggin' minute. Everyone wants to "fix" everyone else.

This guy must have been insulted the first time he heard his Mother tell him "I love you, and I know I always will".

Uh. Yeah.

So didya sell it?

The censorship's been going on for over a year nellie. The Chinese government imposed the demand for the filtering, after shutting Google down at one point. It came back up, with some things being left out, Google cooperating with the Chinese gov't. The alternative would have probably been a complete ban of the service where Google would have pulled the plug itself. It appears they went with what the gov't. would allow for now with a view to the future. One of the biggest complaints seems to be that Google projects a pretty progressive image but has decided to work around these issues. Here's a good write up HERE on wired.com that covers some viewpoints. Searching the internet with Google isn't foolproof though and never has been, there's limits, although I think Google works well. Internet information has always been a question of quality, so I think you're right that people need to access that information thoughtfully and with the some care. If we think we can do a search, get some hits and read a few pages and be assured we have reliable information that's wrong. Where's it coming from, who wrote it, what's the background, integrity of what we're reading, etc. - that all factors in when we're looking for stuff. "Googling" makes it easier to get to some information but of course someone has to have "put it out there" to have it available at all. And one thing it doesn't, and can't really do, is tell us the scope of information of a field we're inquiring about in an easy paragraph. It still requires a logical and persistent approach, "learning". Overall though I like Google, and use it and other search engines. And there's always the good ol' local library, one of the greatest values in our economy. Universities have killer libraries, too.

Hmmm...interesting points! Middle C and B played together make a seemingly "dissonant" sound. Add the E and waddya get? Or with a G below middle C? Dissonance is relative, to context, in music. Since W. European music emphasizes polyphony, "modern" music homophony all that's left is monophony - chants, eastern music, ancient stuff, etc. A single voice won't create dissonance, we need more voices to create a "clash". Buuuuut, that clash is relative to perception where recognizing say, the 8 tone scale's "naturalness" is based on the recognition of the intervals, which can be changed. I'm inclined towards Templelady's comment of "subjectivity" - where a standard is established (in music, "play a major pentatonic scale starting on the root tone of middle C please")....play a Bb and you have dissonance. But not really - you have a minor pentatonic, fine but out of context with what's expected. What are the standards? What's "normal"? Is it based on what's expected? Or...? If one person says "this is the standard yada yada" they can always be in subjective harmony with their own voice. The vast complexity of music and the algorithms to produce it are - endless? Well, there's a lot anyway. But some will prefer and choose one over another. We all do that, personal preference, what we like, what we know, what we choose. Music and religion have one thing very much in common I think - a person can produce what they're "inspired" to and for that person there's balance, wholeness and continuity. One person's C.D. can be some jumpin' stuff to another person. Again - standards....? ("play Mis-hty again, man, I love that toon!")

Is that with or without a quart of barbecue sauce?

Ex, you're a Special One. Jonny, love You too! Salmon in the smoker, notthing gets much better than that. I haven't seen The Movie. I don't know what it's about, other than the Awards show the other night and stuff I've read. I've read it's a love story, here and other places. So I'll go non-neutrual here on the love thing. I thnk people desparately want to love and be loved. Some more than others but once a person's had a taste of true love from another person or even observed it, they want it. They want that personal connection with another person or persons. It's part of the human condition and a factor in the equation of our lives. And it can be dammed frustrating for people, while at the same time being satisfying in a way nothing else can be. Having tasted it myself I feel it's so strong and powerful that if I lost it tomorrow, I think I could live out my life feeding off the memory of what it was once like and be happy to have just been brushed by it's hem. To have loved and lost would be better than not having loved at all, as they say. I would have a hard time denying that to people, even if they embrace it in a way that I wouldn't. The essence of what they seek is the same, if the manner is not. I've read - and I'll be careful in how I say this because I really have no idea what I'm talking about - that there are those who have taken a relationship with another person of the same sex, who in fact don't enjoy the sexual part of it, but are pulled to the relationship part of it because of the deep affection and understanding they have with that person. I have no idea if that's true or not, but I can understand it from an intellectiual view. I can only see the "hetero" side of it, that's all I really understand. (did I say understand? ) But the world can be a lonely, frightening place. On a good day. Is it any surprise we're drawn together whether out of need or for no other reason than we want some kind of shelter, hope, even love? I don't know. There's a lot of things I don't like and frankly homesexuality is one of them. But I like love. That's really about all I know for sure. I'm not planning on seeing this movie. I've got some DVD's of the Invader Zim series that are stacked up and that li'l Gir is one hot robot!!

Well, I did see "March of the Penguins" and found it to be very inspiring. There was a couple "x" rated parts in it, but it was done tastefully, in such a way that I think the penguins involved would have allowed it if they'd known they were being filmed, which they probably didn't. The cinematography was incredible, and it definitely gave me a whole new perspective of love. Penguin love. I was a little hesitant about going - penguins? But I'm glad I did. In fact, I've got the DVD now. Awesome flick. Even better than "Salmon Run, Fish Swim", a rather obscure independent and controversial Danish film that took a look into the little known world of "rough spawning" amongst salmon, and introduced some ground breaking underwater film technology. A must-see for anyone who has tropical fish and wonder exactly what they do at night. I highly recommend it - you'll never order Lox again and look at it the same way.

Thanks S. Craig. For another website post. Speaking of which - I don't want to sue him, see him go to jail, or anything else of the kind. I'm not here to further that cause. If that is the outcome of what anyone else does, that's their business. Not mine. That doesn't diminish my personal judgments, or mean I'm excusing anything. I'm just not going to do anything like that, and have no plans to do so. Well, now that I've got that off my chest, I can get back to the real issues of this video - that pizza. I'm sorry, but If WAP is to the world of biblical research what pizza is to celebration dinners, pass the grated cheese and gimme a fig pep! (note: no innocent chef's were harmed in the making of this post)

Us men do respond to praise and small rewards for good behavior. Some Kibblz 'n' Bitz, a new ball now and then.