socks

Thanks ex10! I appreciate you coming up with that, and you're response. First, I'd eliminate the idea that Stephen's "believing" was a cause for what happened...the idea that believing is the determining factor for whatever occurs in a person's life. Believing, trust, confidence. Jesus prayed to God before His death for that "cup" to be removed. But in any case, for God's will to be done. His confidence was in God to provide Him with His will to be done, above all. I suspect that Stephen would consider his death more than not having his stiff upper lip on that day. He forgave his killers, and asked God to not hold it against them. It's an incredible record, and Stephen had to be an incredible person, just incredible. I often think, ponder about that first era of people. Think about it - they'd seen or knew people who'd seen and witnessed Jesus after His resurrection. After his death and burial. That's going to change a person, make a difference in how they think and act. It explains the passion of their lives, the indelible mark they made in history. In the same way, to whatever degree, it always happens. When and if we focus on Jesus and His story, we have His death vividly in mind, that sacrifice He made willingly. Then we read about His living again. When a person has any contact that they feel is tangible, memorable, "real" with Jesus Christ - it has the same effect as it did on them. It's impossible? but as with Paul, that realization fries a couple circuits and resolders them back again, in a way. Once it's done, it's done and there's really no going back, whether we try to ignore that part of our souls or not. That's real Christianity, IMO, the real thing, the Life, the Way. This other stuff, "believing", that stuff - it's not that big a deal. We're all going to succeed and fail in life. Live and learn. In these graceless times, we need a little dignity, respect for ourselves and others. Your love, care, that's the good stuff. Y'know?

What do his legs look like? Okay, just kidding. Seriously though - I'd want to know, are we talking a shift here or something glittery and tight? Sorry. My only concern would be the shoes. Anything under 3 inches ain't going to be that funny. Alright. That's just wrong. Enough. I really don't know. The thing about kids is they pick things up. They remember. I'm probably taking it to seriously too, it's probably innocent. But if you feel weird about it, as already stated, you owe it to yourself to follow up on it, ask the teacher maybe where the idea came up, it seems weird to you. Talking it over with him might set your mind at ease, at the least.

Oh, they have NO idea... NO idea. Bagpipes Lover, it's not legalism they're pedaling. Read it again. It's ASSISTANCE. They want to assist you in the following challenging items. Maybe they have stock in Chevron. Maybe they bought Frito-Lay. Snacks? I read it again. Yup. You're going to take the Advanced Class, you have to have snacks now. It's required. Snacks. Month 1....I got my fuel. Month 2...I still got my fuel. Month 3....I checked. I still have my fuel. Month 4...I lost my fuel. Month 5....I found my fuel. This is cool. Everytime I need to feel smart, I'm going to read that list. INStantly adds 50 points to my Eye Q. Honestly, this is for the ADVANCED class? I'd hate to see what they monitor for the Foundational now.... I dunno what they're teaching in the Advanced Class these days but it's worth it be on the mailing list just to get this. It's hilarious! It should be on the front page of Grease Spot, headed "Several Things to Consider Before You Join The Way". Snacks. :P :)

"The peace of God that keeps our hearts is based on our thinking these things, on having an abundance of the Bible in our minds." More is better? Could be. Although a lot of a little bit is better than a lot of nothing, that's for sure. This is even more meaningful if a person believes they're "born again" of God's spirit, carrying that treasure around in this life. Jesus taught - to be like our Father in heaven and to return a blessing against a curse. Not me, of course, I get to do what I want, He'll understand <_< But everyone else, yes? We temper each other's tempers that way. Everyone has their moments, adding fuel to the fire burns everyone. Why are we at odds? I don't know. What if someone at some point said, fine. No more. In a perfect world if we were all we wanted to be, I'd be here to help you and you me, I'd hope. I'm laying my sword down. It hurts too much to hurt you. I'm just not going to do it anymore. You do whatever you choose. Here. Here's mine. Everybody gets to stay. :unsure:

Arrogance has a certain beauty all it's own. That highly polished sheen that comes from vigorous buffing. So bright, so clean, so shiny! But, yeah...They gotta go too. I'm not sure who gets to stay yet, haven't gotten that far. Needless to say disagreement with me is going to put you on the Short List, no promises, but it's something to think about. Okay, back to topic. Got work to do.

Dictionary dot com lists the word "ortho" with several definitions. And a pronunciation key. It's pronounced - or-tho. Go figure. Here's what it says - ortho- or orth- (is that Garth's cousin - Orth?) pref. 1. Straight; upright; vertical: orthotropous. 2. Perpendicular: orthorhombic. 3. Correct; correction: orthopsychiatry. 4. The most fully hydrated form of an acid or of its salts: orthoboric acid. 5. Diatomic molecules in which the nuclei have the same spin direction: orthohydrogen. and my personal favorite: 6. Of or relating to one of three possible isomers of a benzene ring with two attached chemical groups in which the carbon atoms with attached groups are adjacent: ortho-dibromobenzene. Isomers and benzene rings - oh yeah. That's the stuff.

There's quite a few GS types that need sorting out, here Allan. Hopefully this will be the start of a much needed cleansing - just a few to start with: Neurotics Psychotics Fussbudgets Worriers Typochondriacs Buttinski's Nosey People Inquiring minds Questioners Wonderers Know-it-alls Dumbies Smartie Pants Wise Ackers Wise Crackers Wisenheimers Dorks And of course, comedians. Where to start, where to start....

I'm sure it is Belle! Nothing like a joyful noise. Yeah, those li'l munchkins have all growed up in front of us. Me, I'm starting to look like the other side of a saddlebag. Feel that way too sometimes. B) So it goes.

SWEET DEAL!

Cuff me, I'm guilty and ready to do my time. :) Ain' gonna be no time off for good bahavior, I can gawrantee that. Belle, you just reminded me of a woman at the church we've been visiting. Not that this is you but that reminded me of her....She is the nicest person, can't remember her name, but we've been behind her a few times, chatted lightly. She's way down into the music, clapping, and gets right into a groove. But... She has no sense of time, rhythm. I mean, if there was a meter to be found she'd get a parking ticket for just driving by. She is so off the beat, it's absolutely - it's like falling in love, it feels that good. It's crazy, I can't imagine what she's hearing but it's her own song. But she has the right idea, I know that. Few months ago, my son and daughter were both home together and we went together, the whole fam. They're 24 and 22, and both rather attractive if I do say so myself, all due to their lovely mother. We were behind this woman and the kids were so cute - they couldn't believe it but were trying hard not to laugh becuz this woman is so into it. So the woman turns around after the song ends and smiles at my kids and says "OH you make such a CUTE couple, WELcome!" She thought they were 'together'. And they quickly explained they weren't, in that way. Somehow, it just seemed right. That whole service was so good, I could do it again and again.

Do I get something if I do??? :unsure:

As were we all. And I bet you were the BEST at switching that switch. What year was that? I think you're example explains why LCM ended up buried in athletic metaphors. In a warfare, there's casualties, victors, defeats, spoils, captures and prisoners. People get hurt. There's strategy, the enemy gets routed and decimated. In athletics there's winners and losers. Nobody gets killed or seriously injured - unless they leave the competition, in which case you're a GREASEspot, ya puh-nk! Short answer - both apply to our lives, in different ways (and not all of the ways LCM taught IMO ) I think it does warrant study though. But the essence of it isn't too hard to understand at this point, I think. Then, I dunno.

ex10, can you elaborate? How did the discussion go on that record, and it's meaning(s)? Thanks. P.S. I know I'm not contributing much to the other discussions, so I hope this all fits with the thread topic. Come to think of it, what wouldn't? :)

Well, yes and no. I'd state it as such - that the basic doctrinal points taught in the PFAL 3 part series were done deals, and assumed to be correct as is. Some nuancing would be possible in certain records but from a "principle" standpoint the doctrinal messages were considered complete. Further "tweaking" would only clarify the details. That would be how I'd view the "early years", after PFAL was put on film the second time, in the version most of us took. It mostly came down to elucidating on what was already known. If a person added to it, good on them. But if a person came along and challenged any of the basic precepts, that was a no-go. I'd agree with that, and to a degree, with the PFAL series - but only to a very small degree. Nearly everyone who stayed around the Way for any length of time either didn't disagree or kept it to themselves. The culture wasn't one of open debate on the basics, that I remember, ever. Discussion, questions, yes. F'instance, when we went on our interim year I spent most of my personal studying reviewing Acts and the travels of Paul, in conjunction with Timothy, which we'd had all taught our first year. Those topics were of interest to me. VPW had already taught and presented his idea of the Way Tree, and it was in full development. My own study led me to feel as if Acts didn't exactly lay out a pattern for a Way Tree structure, that the first generation of "Christians" didn't live it out that way. I posed a few questions about it to VPW, and he actually felt the same way, that the idea of a fully formed structure as he proposed wasn't fully realized in Acts, or in the years following, but the essence, the "potential" for it was there. My questions posed an alternate idea - that there was room for a fluid and flexible structure that would move with the times, and according to the need. VPW agreed, yes. But the Way Tree was what we were doing now. I think he had trouble responding to any real challenge to his line of thinking. He'd get angry if you pushed too hard, angry if you didn't. That's really the same as how the Way was run under LCM - the role of a "leader" or "man of God" whose job it is to know and reveal a "present truth", an ideal path for the body of Christ to be moving down. Once thats' revealed it's everyone else's job to get in line and get busy making it happen. Does this go to anything you said? To me it does, and if you want to get into it further, I might be able to get clearer. Sorry if it's ambiguous. It makes sense to me. :blink: :)

That sounds like a great way to live it, Raf. In fact I remember you posting about that last year, at least in one post I read, and it made a great deal of sense to me.

Yeah, it may be a matter of location. Maybe churches are like businesses - "location, location, location". Maybe not. A church I've attended (occasionally) "teaches" all of that, in some detail. SIT isn't taught the same way. Where PFAL was more of a production-line approach which (I think) proved difficult for some people and even generated long term difficulties for others, it's dealt with in a more personal, intimate approach. This church did a series last year where they took each service and covered a huge laundry list of questions relating to life, the bible, many topics, all that had been submitted by the congregation. It was titled "Google It". :) , as in search for those answers. It wasn't a static one-teacher-at-the-podium series, it used media, guest speakers. The "how do we know there's a God" piece included non-Christian presenters who discussed why they're atheists. There was teaching from the bible. It was quite interesting, inspiring and helpful. I find these kinds of things much more informative and helpful than continual and slightly rebaked restatements of what everyone already knows, where the "real" questions, needs and interests of people aren't dealt with. I agree with Raf, that the "big ticket" items of JCING, Heaven, after-death life, etc. are probably the items that most ex-Wayfers define comfort levels by. There again, I've been surprised though. I think Wayfers often take a stance akin to picking a fight - "he ISN'T GOD!"....before even opening the discussion as to who Jesus Christ is/was - as one example. There's also a personal-comfort level that I thnk a lot of people want too. If a church or ministry has some connection back to the "original" Way or PFAL based Way ministry, it might feel better, more "right" because there's an assumption that the major doctrinal and practical concerns will be dealt with the same way. But it's really no different than anyone else choosing a church because "I like what they teach". Same thing, IMO. Anyhoo-a simple case could be made that if PFAL was an accumulation and collation of existing information into a single package, that existing information would have been/be available to everyone else too. If a person was looking for a replacement for it, odds are it's out there. (and of course even PFAL was a 3 part series with a lot of additional material so it wasn't a single class/answer/now-I-got-it-all solution). And to add a twist to that idea and to deal with the "reissuing of God's Word" uh, doctrine - another case could be made that in the course of PFAL being developed, the entire intent of a "theopneustos" "reissuing" of God's Word wasn't fully achieved as intended. There's ample evidence to support all of these notions, if that's the direction someone wanted to go.

There was a point there when the "WOW" burgers went way downhill - think it was the early 80's...help me out here. :unsure: Actually the beef was fine, but they changed the buns. I think Purchasing was trying to save a few nickels. Bad buns. :blink: :( Scarey.

Holy Mackerel!

ex10, you're mighty welcome and no, of course, you're not. :) Peter Max posters?! Cool!

"All of this, all of this can be yours All of this, all of this can be yours All of this, all of this can be yours Just give me what I want...and no one gets hurt"

Very good stuff, here, y'all. I do appreciate this and have ended my work days the last couple days coming to this thread after I get home. Aaah. Home. Praise and worship - I've mostly seen it as a "part" of church services, where it's at the beginning. I've also seen it as the "whole" service, where it's the primary activity of the gathering. There are many ways to praise and worship God - we're "living sacrifices". I confess - I don't understand things I read about like "laughing in the spirit", and such things. If something's funny, I laugh. I laugh at some things others might not find funny. But I just don't attend places where that's going on. -Raising hands in a church service wouldn't be out of order in my mind. There's natural expression and there's phoney expression. If people do it because it's the thing to do or because it's "time", that's phoney. As WhiteDove said - why bother? Sit down, relax. But when it's time to sing I'll clap, I enjoy the singing, the music. But I confess - it's a little weird to me a few times at one church we visited for awhile, I've seen some people in a service while the teaching or sermon is going on with eyes squinched shut suddenly raising their arms up out of nowhere and mumbling. To me, it's spooky. What's going on? Is he okay? :blink: Sorry, it's just the way it strikes me, I don't get it but I guess they do. My daughter's been to the Hillsong Music and church in Australia twice, once for a music conference they held. Hillsong's Darlene Zschech is an incredible singer and songwriter and wrote "Shout to the Lord", a staple of praise and worship singing now. They've been on tour worldwide and my wife's seen them and was really blessed by the entire experience. THIS LINK has more and an interview with her. I really like her music personally. While there are parts of the whole "praise and worship" movement as it's called, that are extremely commercial and contrived, I think it may be a legitimate response to the needs of people everywhere, particularly in our generation. It's certainly a natural growth, in many ways. They've got a song that's very cool - and they lyrics to the chorus made me go "whoa!" the first time I heard them. It's titled "Free to Dance" although it's not talking about dancing in the services all over the place spontaneously. The idea of the song is cool. My first thought was David, and I'd have to say that although dancing is a specatator sport for me, it sounds wonderful - it goes: This song in my heart, this song in my soul This song I was born to sing It's Your song of freedom, now I'm free to dance again I'll sing in the darkness, I'll laugh in the rain Rejoice in Your love again It's Your song of freedom, now I'm free to dance again Your Spirit brings me liberty Your breath of life has set me free Chorus: Jesus, Your love, it lifts me high Gives me reason to run the race with joy This song within me, Lord, will bless Your Holy name Jesus, I'll dance before Your throne Bring this heavenly sound to You alone This song within me. Lord, will bless Your Holy name It's a cool tune.

Wow, Finnegan doing the Doo. :blink: It's been a long time, but has it been THAT long? :) I have to say I wouldn't enjoy that either, fine friend. :) Couple more thoughts - AKA "to everything there is a season"....and really just a longer more boring version of what EX10 just posted. the words decently and in order are used in the context of "charismata". Paul says "all things", and at the expense of bridging the PFAL gap, it begs the question "all WHAT things"? It's not a PFAL thing to want to determine that. A simple read of the english seems to say all the things he's been talking about. He's been describing the use of spiritual gifts/manifestations/stuff when the Corinthians come together and how they should be done. Obviously the orderliness of their use will contribute to how effective they are. If there's pandemonium, verbal pushing and shoving and inconsiderate activity the whole thing goes in the toilet. In general, as advice, sure. Don't wig out if it's not a Rave Party. Show some cool here. In another place he talks about their eating together, another activity they shared. There he reminds them to basically not be respectors of people and social status. Indeed, Jesus taught the first shall be last, the meek will inherit the earth, to treat one another as we ourselves want to be treated and to be willing to forgive others their debts to us. Letting the rich and influential of the congregation have first dibs on the food must have sucked for everyone else. You get treated like crap everywhere else, and then you come to fellowship with your "family" and they make you move to the end of the line because you're poor. Have a nice day. I don't doubt they partied at times. Sometimes celebration is in order, right? Authentic behavior is the key, to me. Different activities have different appropriate practices. I'd say, the N.T. provides both instruction and direction. Some things - this is it. Other things, do it like this. We live 2000 years later in our own times and with our own lives. We have the opportunity to decide. There has to be room for flexibility. The stiff tree breaks in the wind and dies, where the palm tree bends and survives, nothing lost. I think some Christian thought misses that - I've read, spirit is like water. It moves in different ways in different forms but it finds it's way everywhere. John 3:8 The wind blows where it wants, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I just noticed "raisin" holy hands...are they California Raisins? I may sound conflicted WhiteDove, but I think you raise some good points. I see "decent and in order" as sound advice in an environment where people come to pray and worship God together. Paul had a reason for writing it to the Corinthians. When God's people fellowship together there should be an awareness of the honor and dignity of such an event as well as the joy, the happiness of it all. It shouldn't be cold or sterile, but it shouldn't be a train wreck either. In the church we've been attending off and on, the services run in sections. There is music at the start, singing. At some point the pastor welcomes everyone and may speak for a bit, and there's more music. Not everyone does the hands thing. Some do at times. Most sing, some don't and just listen. I would say it's very open and enthusiatic, while being very peaceful and quite literally "decent and in order". That has a lot to do with the Pastor. There's a lot of people involved but he appears to be very aware and watchful without being overbearing. There's an air of respect, I'd call it. EX10, that's interesting. It's always a matter of being engaged from the heart, isn't it?

Bliss, for some reason I want to say this went back to the Way's view of "holy rollers", and what people in some churches did when they spoke in tongues. Gettin' crazy, jumping around, possess-o, that stuff. Can't quite place it though and that explanation would be pretty old. I think there was a connection made there between the two that "queered" the whole thing, like "oh glawry Pete, I'm so full o' the Lawd I just gotta raise my hands and pray-uz Him I can' he'p myself!!"....lack of control. I think VPW viewed it like an unauthorized bathroom break, maybe. I think one of the attractive things about the early Way was that there weren't a lot of rituals attached on to the fellowship. Sit on the floor, sit on a chair, sit in a church, meeting room, outside, whevever. Outside of the things that were believed to be important elements of the faith, there wasn't an enforced order of service or specific way to do things. Georgraphically and culturally there was flexibility. Plus, I've said it before, I first went to the Way Nash in 1970, couple times that years for a few weeks and the SNS's were hot deals in those days. Dororthy and Rhoda pumping the keyboards..."I SAW THE LIGHT!".....VPW doing the Preacher's Strut at the podium, his hair and tie all over the place by the time he'd be done. Not all the time, but it could get going as I recall. The people from the Ohio area that went ranged from quiet in the seat types to people shoutin' AMEN! and GLORY! here and there. I still remember vividly an elderly woman slappin' her bible and clapping as VPW hit his mark on something and her yelling "Oh, he's so CUITE! He just loves the Lord!" When people woud "manifest" they'd get into it. Couple times heard people sing prophesy, out of nowhere. I'm serious - here I'm a long haired boy from the Left Coast and wondering what I've walked into. So for a lot of people more introverted or less inclined to publis displayes of emotion it was very nice. It wasn't a church service where you bobbed up and down in a pew or on a kneeler for an hour, nor was it a deal where some preacher was in your face asking if you were saved or not. It could reflect who you are/were, not so much what someone else said you should or had to be. Others liked expression, and that could be there too. But if I look back to the early years, late 60's era, I think most of us weren't as inclined to the churchy hand raising stuff and more of a youthful response, informal, relaxed. EX10, I love those verses you posted. I do agree, as I've grown and changed personally I see the need for meaningful ritual and expression of one's own thoughts and convictions. The churches I've been to that have people "raising hands" are very joyful celebrations of faith and prayer. Being a musician, I can appreciate this. You've got your shoe-gazing types, your boppin' and rockin' types. There's nothing like throwing your head back and goin' for it. :) Or diggin' in for some serious arrangments. I think it's like that.

It just might! This thread has made me think, always a thrill. AOS, and the many things that developed throughout the 80's and 90's, and the effect they may have had on the financial dreams of the Way. Think about it.....in no particular order - AOS - ham handed handling of a few defenseless verses in the bible leads bewildered and grossed out audiences to ponder "What would David do?" The Tithe Defined - cheerful giving replaced by manndatory tax and tough love. No givey, no spitty in your direction. POP - Prez of the Way gets bich slapped by a guy 5,000 miles away, leading to.... The Fog Years - 3 years of paid vacation while the BOT get their heads untogether. PFAL Replaced - by a new Way class, most memorable for it's teaching about the Original Lesbian, replacing PFAL with a class that has the acronym...."WAP". Full Time Corps Employment - drains the Way's cash accounts and utlimately leads to a BOT resignation, and disrupts 100's of people's lives. Until it's cancelled and changed, again disrupting 100's of people's lives. SPECIAL RECOGNITION NOTE FOR TIME MANAGEMENT - this all takes less than two years. Homo Purge - homo hunt ushers in the era of "genuine suspicion" and "mark and avoid", ultimately leading to Way men everywhere tossing out all their flowered Hawaiian shirts. No Debt Policy - American dream to work hard, play hard, save, buy a home and raise a family replaced by new "Sell It Now and Move" policy. Genuine suspicion circulates the policy may have been started and promoted by Way Real Estate agents. SPECIAL ACHIEVEMENT CERTIFICATE: anyone's life that wasn't previously turned upside down by something gets routed out for not being "faithful". EXTRA WIN-WIN MILEAGE POINTS: around the same time bad housecleaning habits are discovered to be a major cause of much of the world's problems. The Allen Suit - straw hits the camel's back and the hump comes a-tumbling down. TRUTH STRANGER THAN FICTION NOMINATION: Settlement includes closing of WayDale, leading to Greasespot Cafe and a steady flow of posters and readers who never read WayDale. Grease Spots By Midnight - ominous threat by the Way Prez leads to miraculous resurrection of 1000's of former Way members who, having left and disappeared, return, better than ever. Just when you thought it was safe to surf - they're ba-ack. Is it me or....well, never mind. Just thinking