Abigail

It matters not to me whether a pedophile or parent who brutally murders a child is viewed as possessed, purely evil, sick, human, whatever. No matter what the label, they have proven they are unwilling or unable to control themselves sufficiently to be allowed to live freely in our society. It would the the rare exception (if one even existed) when I would think such a person should be allowed a second chance at access to my children.

"Must...not...fart . . ."

It has been my experience that organized religions often want to keep people ignorant. They don't want them to learn about and/or accept views outside of their own doctrine. They want to keep people unlearned, unwise. . .

Some scattered thoughts . . . . . The serpent was equated with wisdom in religions which may very well predate Judaism and Christianity. The serpent (wisdom) encouraged Eve to eat of the fruit at would make her like god(s). Moses carried a staff made to look like a serpent (as druids would perhaps have likewise done). The people eventually came to worship Moses serpentine shaped staff after it was placed in the temple. Beyond the "laws" the Jewish view of God has always been vastly different from sect to sect, even throughout biblical history and often included the worship of a goddess and/or other gods. The Prophets often reproved the Jews for their worship of idols and other gods. Yet the only time in all of history that massive numbers of jews worshipped in similar fashion would have been under the Sanhedrin in the days of Jesus. And what did Jesus do? He did away with their laws.

(((Song))) the mind sure can be a trip sometimes, eh? but I will not derail further. Just wanted to send ya a hug.

The story doesn't tell us what the girl did wrong. But it does seem to indicate it was the lack of security that had the teachers so upset. In either case, agree or disagree with punishment of rock collecting, my main point was simply that it was wonderful to see these teachers take a stand for what they believed was right. Mathman, I agree the teachers get the short end of the stick on many levels, and yet they have one of the most difficult jobs. You may find I complain from time to time about a teacher, but in general I will support and advocate for teachers. It is usually the administration or the government's handling of our schools that ....es me off.

Shell, Thanks for posting that link, cause boy did I have a different understanding of what the numbers and multiple variables meant!!!! Ron, I googled consensus facillitation, but I am not sure I am getting the point you were trying to make.

"Missouri teachers quit in punishment protest 7 of 10 in tiny district resign after colleague is fired for helping girlThe Associated Press Updated: 6:35 p.m. ET May 25, 2005EAST LYNNE, Mo. - Seven of 10 classroom teachers in a tiny school district resigned after a colleague was fired for helping an 11-year-old girl who was left alone in a playground to pick up rocks as punishment. advertisement The fourth-grader in the East Lynne School District in Cass County was assigned the task last September for refusing to do her schoolwork, but she was unsupervised except for a security camera. The playground was near a road but inside a fence. The fired teacher, Christa Price, went to the principal — who is also the district superintendent — and asked him to reconsider the punishment, but he wouldn’t. So on her free period, Price helped the girl pick up rocks. Other teachers watched the girl the next day. At contract time in March, Superintendent Dan Doerhoff recommended firing Price, a popular teacher who had had good performance evaluations, for insubordination. Seven other teachers then chose not to return their contracts. “If a teacher who advocates on behalf of safety of a student is not fit to be a teacher at East Lynne or anywhere in Missouri according to this administration, then none of us are fit to teach at East Lynne,” the teachers who resigned said Tuesday in a statement. Lax security alleged One of the teachers who resigned, Jenny Neemann, said having a security camera on the area where the girl worked wasn’t enough. “Somebody could have nabbed her in 10 seconds,” she said. Doerhoff has since dropped the practice of rock punishment because of the uproar, but he insists it wasn’t that strenuous. The rocks were left over from some drilling work. The school district has already filled most of the jobs left vacant because of the resignations, Doerhoff said Wednesday. The girl, whose name was not released, told The Kansas City Star that the assignment “made me feel like a slave.” Her mother said she and her husband had agreed to the rock-gathering punishment, which was the only alternative Doerhoff gave them to suspension. “I love this woman,” the mother said of Price. “What happened to Christa is beyond belief.” Doerhoff also refused to sign the certification renewal that Price needs to get another teaching job, saying doing so would have been inconsistent and “could put me in a pickle.” Jim Morris, spokesman for the Missouri Department of Elementary and Secondary Education, said the department’s Kansas City-area supervisor has offered to speak to certification officials on Price’s behalf. Price said she doesn’t regret challenging Doerhoff. “The first thing I told her when I went out there was, ‘Don’t fill the bucket so full,”’ Price said." I love it when people really stand up for what they believe is right.

"The American public needs to demand that we codify the sex offenders more clearly. It appears that child sex offenders and adults that assault adults are from different worlds. Currently, we are lumping them all together as registered sex offenders. " Not only that, but if you are convicted of statutory rape because when you were 18 you had consensual sex with your 15 or 16 year old girlfriend you are also classified as a sex offender. In Michigan we have degrees, I don't know the differences between all the classifications. But somehow living near someone who was convicted of a 4th degree sexual offense does not worry me nearly as much as living near someone who forced their way into someones home and raped them, or someone who raped a young child.

To further derail . . . "Mstar -- yes they do. One of *my guys* hears voices a lot (ie -- read schizophrenic) and he is on some powerful shi--- err *stuff*! to control it. " I recently saw "A Beautiful Mind", about John Nash, a brilliant mathmetician who is schizophrenic. It was a very powerful movie. So, if one follows a schizophrenic does one also become schizophrenic? You think I jest, but watching that movie - watching John Nash come to terms with the idea that his "reality" was not real for anyone else, that some of the people he knew did not even exist - reminded me of how I felt when I first left TWI. I had panic attacks for about six months as I worked to sort out "TWI's reality" from the actual world I lived in. I know what I experienced isn't quite the same as schizophrenia, but the emotion of it seemed very much like the emotions John Nash experienced as he learned to separate the visions and voices in his head from reality.

Breathe, guys. No one is jabbing at anyone, everyone is simply working through their own thoughts.

Would love to do another one, Sharon. I would even be willing to take a stab at "moderating" if SirG isn't back. BUT Saturday's at 6:00 p.m. are a difficult time for me. Actually, any day at 6:00 is a difficult time for me. Generally, 8:00 on is the best for me on any day because then my little ones are tucked snuggly into bed. :)-->

Interesting and disturbing read, Arkie. The sad thing is, if the people would apply some common sense, the "problem, reaction, solution" process would go very differently. Seems common sense is sadly lacking in this country, though.

"There is no solution to this problem it is most likely all in my head, but this caf?s a little bit like high school, so remember how much it sucked to eat in the cafeteria alone?" I never ate alone in high school,though I did for many years before that. In high school I ate with the stoners, the only group that seemed to accept me. In retrospect, I may have been better off eating alone. "Truthfully I feel that what I write is ignored, I had put up a "Happy News" thread with perky feel good stories. Then I sat there and watch people ignore it, post on others as mine went done the page. I was furious, so I started to delete anything I wrote, (you know the I'll get u and your dogie 2 mentality)" So THAT is what happened to that thread. I read it Sharon, but didn't have time to reply before it was gone, I had to go to work and then it was gone. One thing to remember, Sharon, is that sometimes people read a thread and enjoy it, but don't have anything to contribute to it - at least at that moment. A lack of replies does not necessarily mean you are being ignored.

Hmmmmm, me thinks me smells a rat. Our wonderful govenor wants to pass a law that would prevent registered sex offenders from living within two blocks from a school, as if that is going to make a difference in child safety. Additionally, there is no distinction made between the 20 year old who got busted for having sex with his underaged girlfriend and the pedophile who molested a 6 year old. Check out some of these figures from the Detroit News . . . "About 1,900 of Michigan's registered sex offenders -- 1 of every 10 on the state listing available to the public -- live in close proximity to a school" and "A Detroit News investigation in April found that at least 35 Michigan school employees or those recently employed by schools had been charged or convicted of sexual misconduct in a 15-month span" Sounds scary, no? Which is what it is intended to do. BUT again there is no distinction made between the guy who was convicted of 3rd or 4th degree criminal sexual assualt against an adult and the perv who preys on children. Stories like this do more harm than good. They stir people up into a frenzy of fear and then a knee jerk response totally lacking in common sense follows.

"DETROIT About 19-hundred convicted sex offenders live near Michigan schools, according to a Detroit News report. Governor Jennifer Granholm says she wants state lawmakers to set up thousand-foot 'predator-free zones' around Michigan's schools. The zones would keep convicted sex offenders from living less than about a fifth of a mile from schools. That's roughly two city blocks. To measure the impact of such zones, The News mapped the state's schools and offenders on the public registry. The paper found ten percent live in close proximity to schools. The numbers are estimates because many offenders' addresses couldn't be mapped, and the locations are approximations." Gee I feel my kids will be sooo much safer now (NOT). We have two convicted pedophiles, one a repeat offender, living right next door to each other and 3 blocks from an elementary school. Boy I bet their are glad they won't have to move. Afterall - two or three blocks is way to far to have to walk.

ExC, I've been thinking about your post. My best friend from high school had 8 siblings. There were 5 different fathers to these 9 children. Mom "raised" them all on welfare. The kids were all placed in foster homes for about a year during her last marriage and finally got to go home when that marriage ended. Of those 9 children, only 1 lives on government income and she has cerebral palsy. Makes you wonder exactly how much truth there is to the concept that welfare breeds welfare and how much of it is exaggeration. In either case I think part of what makes this country so wonderful is that it is possible to work your way out of poverty, regardless of whether your were born into, faced unforseen cirmcumstances, or simply made poor choices at some point in your life. Part of what makes it possible to overcome poverty in this country are the very same government programs so many people get ****** off about. What a shame it would be to lose those programs, making it so much more difficult for people to work their way out of poverty.

"Abigail, I really want to apologize. " Apology accepted and returned. Generally you will find me to be very polite, even when I disagree. BUT if I feel someone has come after me as a person, instead of simply disagreeing on a point, I tend to let them have it with both barrels. I spent too many years allowing people walk all over me, now I have no tolerance for it. :)--> "The DSM(Diagnostic Statistics Manual...or something like that) " Yeah, I am familiar with these manuals. My mom was a student of psychology when I was in middle school and high school - I used to read her textbooks, I was such a nerd. lol I have also read parts of them in recent months and years as we continue to work with my son so I am very aware of all the overlaps and how confusing and frustrating it can be to pinpoint anything. "I was once book smart. You know what I found? That I was street stupid, and had no survival skills whatsoever." Despite how I spent my teen years, I spent my 20s becoming all too street smart. I think somewhere there is a healthy balance between the two - God grant any of us ever find it. "About parents, perhaps I was making a point that unless your(meaning anyone) parents were actually abusers, they did the best they could with what they had. " I agree. But think about how much more parents can have with so much information at their fingertips. Is all of the information good? nope. Will all of the good information work for your child? Nope. But I guess I am an optimist and I think most people are smart enough to sort out for themselves what will and will not work for their family. So my point was simply that the more accessable we can make this information, the better. " Do not confuse corporal punishment with actual beatings. Shaking, slapping across the face, punching are pretty extreme as far as I'm concerned. Slapping a hand or butt, will get the message across. But to each their own." And again, I agree. I too have been known to smack a hand or swat a butt when I believed the situation called for it - especially with younger children who truly are much harder to "reason with". But I also think kids reach an age where that is no longer appropriate and so alternatives need to be available. Smacking the behind of a two year old is not out of line. smacking the behind of an 8 or 9 year old may stop a particular behavior. But it may also instill a great deal of shame, humiliation and anger without imparting the information the child actually needs. "The weird thing about the symptoms in my day is that people who were diagnosed as manic-depressive, were either manic-depressive manic, or manic-depressive depressive. If the person 'moped'(for lack of a better word!) they were more on the depressive side. On the other hand if they had energy and couldn't shut-up then they were manic. " This is still true today - they call it bipolar with predominant depression or predominant mania. "PS some of the things you quoted were said to Safari" I knew that but wanted to respond. Particularly because I felt that some of those comments were to her, but in response to the disagreement between you and I. Safari is a wonderful woman and terrific mom, btw. :)-->

"I like how abigail declared on certain comments about ADD that I don't know her. Well abigail, you just told me. It's called hitting a nerve. " Yes it did hit a nerve, because I have seen the damage that can be done to parents and children when very real neurological disorders go untreated because people want to simply say the parents aren't strick enough, etc. And I too have been down that road. I spent a good year thinking that the things going on with my son were my fault and that I was a bad parent. Now I know better. Am I a perfect parent? Nope, no one is. But I am a damned good one and my son has come a long ways because of the work I have put into helping him and because of the help we have received from the medical field. "Books tell anybody anything that they want to hear. " Sure they can. Should we stop reading them because of this? Or should we remember that books can also teach us a lot of useful information? ", and catch them doing things they know they shouldn't. I'm sure yours are the exception" All kids test the limits and boundaries or simply do things they shouldn't because it is what they want to do. That alone is certainly not the criterion used to diagnose a disorder. "after all there are literally thousands of books on parenting, and none really agree" Sure there are and there are literally thousands of children who have their own unique personalities and learning styles - so what works for one may not work for another. Thank God we have so many options and ideas out there for how to handle different situations that come up in life. " I also warned that although I am talking about the subject as a whole, individuals take it personnally" I didn't take it personaly until YOU made it personal. I simply said I take issue with the broad generalizations and explained why. "Abigail, if like you said a family member was diagnosed back in the 70s, I'm wondering if it wasn't actually manic-depression(don't know if it still has that name today)??? Depression is a real thing" These days they call it bipolar disorder. My younger sister is bipolar and doing very well on her medications. {And yes it has occured to me that this may also be the case with my brother - but he prefers to self medicate with street drugs instead of going to a trained professional, so who knows.] Yes, that is an area we are looking into with my son. Unfortunately it is a very difficult thing to diagnose in younger children. Unfortunately, finding an accurate diagnosis can be very very difficult - especially in children, because there are so many overlapping symptoms. We have been through a few different labels now. Personally, I don't care what label is given as long as my son gets his needs met. We have found a combination of a very very low dose of medication (not a stimulant), combined with very specific exercises, combined with counseling and most of all lots of love have done wonders for him. "I did not put her in a general category" I didn't say you put me in a general category - at least not until you posted to me directly. What I said was that I took issue with the generalities as blanket statements and I gave some exmples from my own life to explain why. I don't think I am such a unique individual and so I imagine I am not the exception but the norm. Problem is - the press and political figures like to play up the worst case scenarios to the point that the general public thinks that those worst case scenarios are the norm. "but if you butt into a discussion I was having with someone else" This is an open discussion forum. If you want a conversation to remain between you and someone else, take it to private topics. Otherwise everyone is free to post their opinions - to agree or disagree. "f you look at abigail's comments to sharon, she begins to quote ME and put in her ideology" Actually - if you read the post I stated that I took issue with some of the statements in the previous FEW posts. I did only quote from yours - because it was the last of the bunch and easiest to quote from, not because I was specifically singling you out. Hmmm - perhaps you had a nerve hit as well.

"Take it from someone who spent over 5 years in the psychiatric profession, excuses are used to justify the behavior of the guilty." Well this explains a lot, Signals. Yeah, I've known a lot of people who worked in the mental health field, including my own mom. Most of them were nutcases who could not heal themselves. However, if one searches hard enough, eventually it is possible to find the rare gem. "You should perhaps fill us in if your children feel that after everything you've done they haven't been scarred by your parenting" Oh, I am sure they will, at least during some period of their lives. Hell the issue is never "will I screw up my kid" the issue is simply to what degree. "like you seem to pose the blame on your parents." Blame? Nope, I don't blame them, I simply understand them and love them for who they are. I also know they were imperfect, as everyone else is. I was not issuing blame but pointing out that because my parents didn't know how to parent well, I don't either. [Perhaps you missed this during your 5 years in the mental health field - but kids learn a great deal by modelling and if there is no model then the learning may not occur] So to correct that I do lots of reading and find those things which will work for me and my family. This is how one breaks cycles of abuse, neglect, or even simply those of bad parenting. I will make some of the same mistakes they did and I will make many of my own mistakes along the way as well. But at least I won't make all of the same mistakes they made. "The symptoms of ADD are nothing more than normal childhood behavior that because the parent(you or yours) can't control, has to find an excuse to let drugs do it!" Gee you know a lot about me and my son for someone who has never met us. Did I EVER say my son was diagnosed with ADD??? Can you show me that? "Seems odd that no one heard of ADD until the late '90s. " Really? No one heard of it until the 90's? For someone who worked in the mental health field you sure are ignorant. My older brother was diagnosed as ADD or ADHD back in the 70's. I can certainly see why it is you may no longer be working in the mental health field. "Even good parents scar their children, or why else would some seek positive reinforcement of a cult? " I don't know - why did you seek the positive reinforcement of a cult? As for me - I was certainly not looking for positive reinforcement regarding parenting from TWI. In fact their poor doctrine on parenting was one of the many things that led to my departure from the particular organization. But I understand, it is easy to take the person out of The Way - not always so easy to take The Way out of the person. I can see by your know it all, condenscending attitude that you have a long long WAY to go. Are you sure you "worked" in the mental health field and were not a patient of the mental health field?

Wow, CM. I have come across this concept before, the term that comes to mind is "split aparts". Not sure if that should be one word or two. So does this then mean we each have another "part" out there somewhere? Or after man was split the first time, were all of Adam and Eve's children singular to begin with. The concept of God being both male and female is also held within Judaism, as in a form of the trinity, ie. father, mother, child. Though ultimately in Judaism it is understood that all terms used to describe God are lacking and only descriptive of aspects to help us come to an understanding of God. Therein lies the potential for idolotry, anytime one becomes to fixated on a single aspect and worships the part instead of the whole.

ah thanks, Safari. :)--> I must say it takes one to know one, cause I remember how wonderful you always were with the kiddos. And what a wonderful daddy your kiddos had too. It is good to see you again.

I'm very familiar with "A Stranger in a Strange Land" it was the first Heinlein book I ever read and I read it a number of times. I went on to read all the rest of his books as well. :)--> The concept of the Messiah in Judaism is not of a spiritual savior but a physical one. One who would unite the Jews and them from persecution. A king, if you will. A spiritual savior is not needed - that is what the rituals are for. And the rituals are just that - rituals. A physical act to coincide with the spiritual process taking place - to tell our brains and hearts what they need to hear because we are spiritual beings in a physical body and world. and Danny is also correct. In some sects of Judaism it is believed that the people collectively will become the Messiah as we grow as a "race", and in some sects as we grow as a species. I tend to agree with this latter concept. I think we are hear to learn and grow - to evolve in a sense. I think it is also entirely possible that we will continue to be reborn until we have reached the platue of our learning. If you are interested in some fictional materials that will give you an interesting perspective on pagan religions and perhaps wicca in particlar I would highly recommend Marion Zimmer Bradley's books - the "Mists of Avalon" the "Priestess of Avalon" the "Lady of Avalon" and the "Forrest House". There is one more but I can't recall the name of it right now.

I have to take issue with some of this. I think there are some very valid points made in the past few posts, but there is also some pretty wide blanket statements. Sharon, your mom sounds pretty amazing. Unfortunately, many women would not come through such difficult circumstances so well. Why is that? A myrad of reasons, none of which means they wouldn't like to come through as well (although certainly there is a percentage who just don't give a ****). "I know all parents say that I will never raise my kids like my parents raised me. Then did our parents actually do a bad job?" Yes, mine did. My parents bounced back and forth between forgetting I exhisted at all and letting me run absolutely wild, to trying to control the very air I breathed. It was a very crazy way to grow up - never knowing what was expected and when the hammer was gonna fall. As a parent myself now, I try to be more consistent and even keeled. However, I also find myself slipping into some of my parent's patters with my own kids. Situations come up that I don't know how to handle because no one ever handled them with me. So I have read many many books on parenting and am taking a parenting class now. I take those things I find useful and use them - the rest I toss. "They are diagnosed with ADD or ADHD! Plus some counseling and there you go..." Again I take issue with the implied notion that none of these disorders exist. Are normal children sometimes misdiagnosed by overzealous doctors, or over wrought parents and teachers, absolutely. BUT these disorders are real, and until you have raised a child with one of them you cannot even begin to understand what is involved in doing it and doing it well. I am very thankful for the knowledge we have gained in the psychological field and sit on pins and needles as we continue to learn more, not only in psychology but neurology as well. Now you can say I am a bad parent because I have one of these kids. Then why is it both of my kids are not this way? I've raised them very much alike - though certainly I have made mistakes with my older son that I have not made with my younger and likewise mistakes with my younger that my older son never had to live through. "Scarring for life means that a lesson is learned and a moral instilled. Reasoning gives the advantage to the child, as he becomes smarter and more manipulative than the parent. " This can be the case, but is not always so. Some times scarring for life results in the 'sins of the parents that are passed on down to the children" in the same way that NOT parenting a child can do. Likewise, reasoning can teachm a child to become more manipulative than the parent (interesting phrase - I prefer to teach my children, not manipulate them) but reason can also teach a child to think for themselves, when done properly. "Then don't get me started on Welfare as that is only a check to breed. Them working? HA! " Well this is one mom who had the misfortune of needing to 'use the system' for a time and didn't receive a check to breed. I have worked hard, continue to work hard, and I am no longer in need of the assistance. However, I am very thankful it was there for the two years I did. Don't misunderstand - I get that there are women who use the check to breed, I've known a few of them. But not everyone who uses the welfare system is this way.

"I do think there could be parenting "information sessions" offered, where information might be dispensed in as neutral a manner as possible." There are programs that are fairly neutral and easy to tailor to your own specific value systems. "Love and Logic" is an excellent example of this. "But most of that information is available now, and the ones who need it most are the least likely to want it." There are also those who want it but can't find it or afford it. I think - offer the classes through a Community Mental Health program on a sliding scale fee basis. AND = if you have a kid who is continually in trouble with schools, truancy, etc. make the classes mandatory for the parents.