Abigail

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LG, Sheesh, calm down. "Don't toss out vague proposals of possibilities that could apply to everyone, including yourself and the most respected of Jewish scholars, but the liklihood of which you have no basis to assess." I would never deny that they could apply to myself. I am still learning and have a long way to go. "Can you suggest any circumstances under which CM's suggestion makes a lick of sense?" I can suggest a circumstance which would suggest CM could very well be onto something that makes sense. Throughout the OT, the Jews were always getting in trouble for worshipping goddesses. Even many years into Christianity, the fight to end goddess worship was still going. In some sects/cultures, those who worshipped the goddess practiced rituals which involved having sex. In some sects/cultures, the children produced by those rituals were understood to be children of the gods. The men were not allowed to claim them as their own and it was said no man had a right to because no man could possibly know who fathered the child. Now I don't know how far back these practices date, but it is entirely possible they date back to biblical times. So, IF those rituals dated back to biblical times, it is possible that Mary had such a child and that Joseph and Mary both raised that child as a child of a god.

It ain't what's below the waist that is the problem, Ron. It's in the brain. And, a man doesn't need a penis to molest a child.

LG, I get what you are trying to do. But I would propose that it is possible you do not know as much about the OT and the culture as you think you do. Especially if you are basing you knowledge on what TWI taught. You want a different and interesting perspective on the OT, study it from the perspective of the culture it came from - the Jews. CM, Most Jews do not believe in the concept of being "born in sin". I am not surprised you cannot find the "tainted blood" in the OT. Yes the sins of the fathers are passed on to the sons, but not through blood. It is simply a matter of cause and effect. The choices we make, the actions we take, usually effect not only ourselves, but those around us and especially those closest to us. If I teach my children that candy is a healthy food, guess what they will grow up believing.

Well, Sushi and I aren't officially married, but we've been together for coming up on 4 years. Trust me, he does not have the same belief system as I do. Doesn't matter, we love and respect each other enough to respect our differences. He will still say prayers over the Sabbath candles if I ask him to. Likewise, I would never expect him to in any way participate in a religious ritual that he didn't want to. Respect, very simple.

((((ExC)))) Happy Birthday - the world is a much better place with you in it!

Happy Birthday HerbieJuanKnobie!!!! (or however the hell ya spell that) And many many many more good ones to come!

Amen to that! I just had this very conversation with someone else. Label it a mental disorder, or whatever, doesn't matter. If they are hurting children and we obviously cannot "cure" them - then they need to be locked away for good.

Happy Birthday (((Anamchara)))

CM, I think where part of the problem stems from is you are going strictly from the Bible, and in a fairly literal fashion. I figure - The Bible as we have it today, was basically put together by men, many of whom were corrupt to some degree by their own agenda, which was by and large political power via a religious name. Therefore, while I think there is much to be learned from the bible, I cannot view it as being "pure". In addition to whatever slants may have been added to the Bible as we know it today, I suspect there has been much that was just plain left out because it didn't fit the agenda. Think about when it was translated, what was going on during that time period, and just prior to that time period, politically. The Christians were fighting hard to put down paganism. They were also working hard to gain/hold political power. My experiences have taught me that I have to stick with those things that make sense to ME. I have to trust what is peaceful to my heart. I know you are working your way through some heavy stuff right now. I don't say any of these things to "reprove" or "condemn", cause I think you are pretty darned cool. I just say them to add another perspective. Peace

I have to take issue with the entire concept that we are someone born in sin. Sorry, its just the way I feel. Even when I was a small child I could not figure out how I could have done something so wrong it was considered a sin. I could not understand how a just God could condemn me or label me as being "born in sin" for something that occured before I was born. The entire concept of being born in sin goes back to the Catholic idea that somhow we are all sinners, and women most of all. If we are all perfectly made, formed, and created, then how can we be born in sin? It just doesn't add up. Like children, who must learn right from wrong, who must gain wisdom from their experiences, so humanity must learn right from wrong and gain wisdom from experience. That is not sin, it is just plain growing up.

To the man who brought a look of pride to Aaron's face, because you taught him to make his own eggs. To the man who plays baseball, basketball, horseshoes, etc. with the boys. To the man who goes to the beach with his family, even though he is not by nature, a beach bum. To the man who even mom can't tease, lest she face the wrath of Jacob. Happy Father's day, 84 (aka ManOfAThousandScreenNames). The boys and I are very fortunate to have you in our lives.

Well they had me - right previous address, wrong birth date. HA

I do not for one second believe students should get passing grades they don't deserve just to meet a government guideline. HOWEVER, our government was supposed to provide funding to the schools in order to help them meet the higher guidelines and has not done so. Johnny L, I often think the brighter kids do not do as well in school as they could because the schools fail to meet their needs with an adequate challange. These kids are bored, bored, bored, and it is a crying shame.

Almost every car I've ever owned was a cheap used car. Many I paid $500 or less for. I never buy from a dealer, always an individual. I want to see what their house looks like. I figure if their home and yard is trashed odds are really really good they didn't take care of the car either. I check to see if the oil is clean, same with the engine. BUT if the engine is too clean it probably means they cleaned it to hide leaks. Most older cars are going to leak some fluid. Ask for repair and maintence records and find out when the transmission fluid was last changed. Then go home and look up the car on the internet and find out what kind of problems you might expect for the year and number of miles. Also find out what the blue book value is. So far, with all my many cheap cars, I've only bought one lemon. That was because I was desperate and in a hurry and didn't take the time I should have.

1000Names and I often dream of opening a dinner some day. We both enjoy to cook and work well as a team in the kitchen. As far as seed money to get started - out of my league on that one. I know here in Michigan we have a small business association that will help new businesses get started. But I've never really checked into it. Not something I would be interested in actually doing until the kids are a little older.

Personally, I like PBS for the kid shows. IT is the ONLY stations that have children's shows that actually have any worth at all.

Public television is not solely supported by viewers. They do receive some funding from the government and that funding is facing cuts and/or elimination. Many on-line petitions are worthless, but those which are put together by well known organizations can have an impact.

Happy Birthday to the man of my dreams. May your day be as joyful as all of my days have been since you came into my life.

Jewish lore has it that Lilith was Adam's first wife. However, she did not want to be submissive, but equal with Adam. The two fought and Lilith left. God then put Adam into a sleep and made Eve from Adam. Could then, the children of Adam and Eve have paired off with the children of Lilith and Eve?

Wish you were here - don't know all the lyrics by heart but it is my favorite Pink Floyd song

I've only tried growing herbs once, and I'm not sure what I did wrong, but they all died. :(--> I love the idea of growing them indoors, but have no place to put them. On the other hand I have had great success with vegies of great variety. This year I am doing my first one in this house (never got around to it last summer). The soil here is very different than the last place I lived - there I had very rich soil and all I did was plant, water, and weed. Here there is a lot of clay, so I mixed in some fresh top soil and lime (thanks Herbiejuan). I have tomatoes, cayenne and serrano peppers, peas, corn, and always I have to grow carrots for Aaron.

Don't take the lack of responses as a lack of interest. It is summer and we are away from our computers enjoying the beautiful weather. :)--> Me, I'm still trying to figure out the time zone thing. I think 8 central is 7 eastern? I think Michigan is the eastern time zone - lol As for topics here's some of the ones which interest me most from the list you posted . . . where is God? *where is the Devil? *what is a holy book? *trust and spiritual teachers *religion versus spiritual praxis *biblical/textual/linguistic prejudices and shadows *what are the difference and similarities between prayer and meditation?

my favorite most ludicrous website is . . . right here

"never ever has God hurt or even slighted ANYONE!! He so loved the world that He GAVE HIs ONLY BEGOTTEN Son. " I know this is a complete derail and belongs in the doctrinal thread, and I honestly mean no disrespect, but this is something I struggled with even while in TWI. It makes no sense to me to say that God never hurt anyone, and in the next breath say he gave his son, when the giving of his son required a tremendous amount of pain and suffering. Sorry, I would like to understand it, honestly, but I just don't.