Abigail

We'll bring chili which can be used as either a dinner or a lunch. Sushi said he'd do a sausage gravy breakfast too. If you remind me, I'll bring smore fixings too.

Krys, That is very close to one of the Love and Logic principles we've begun to apply here at home. Identify who the problem belongs to (If you worry about your child's problem your child won't, because they know they don't have to). Let them know you believe they are capable of solving the problem by empathizing and then asking them, what are YOU going to do about it. If the child doesn't have any ideas, offer a few, starting with the most ludicrous ones. Then, ask them how each possible solution might work out. Tell the child, good luck with that. Let me know how it turns out. Then let them choose which solution, if any to apply. Sounds very simple. And it is, in a sense. But, it is also very very hard to let go and let your child endure the consequences of their choice. However, one of the things I've learned is, it is better to let them suffer the little consequences while they are younger than to have them suffer the more expensive ones when they are older.

"If I'm understanding you, Abi, you are suggesting I do what I've tried to do with Kelly already. And I'm gonna continue to do so, empowering her, making her do it. MAKE her stand up for herself" Yes! and No. I'm suggesting what Sami suggested. Often with adults who behave like this child is - and often with children in general, negative attention is better than no attention. So, ignore, ignore, ignore, pretend she doesn't exist. "My child is taught in our home that she is to be kind, generous, she's to share, she's to not exclude others in a way that embarasses them, she's to love the unlovable, all those pretty and wonderful things. She wasn't buying it." These are wonderful ideals, traits, characteristics that we would love for all of our children to possess. BUT in the real world (and that is what we have to prepare our children for) sometimes it is healthier and safer to turn our backs on the unlovable (because sometimes there is a darned good reason why they are unloveable). Sometimes it is healthier and safer to be downright rude to the unloveable. I wish I had learned these lessons as child, it would have saved me a LOT of grief as an adult. "Kelly didn't want to hurt her feelings." Sometimes, and I prefer only as a last resort, you have to hurt someone else's feelings in order to take care of yourself. It is damned hard being a parent these days, eh, Shell? But you are on the right track. Hold your ground and let Kelly know you expert her to hold her ground as well.

Shell, Do you realize you are considering homeschooling your child because another CHILD is harassing her???? I love ya Shell, but that is insane. Kelly is sweet and wonderful and we all hope she remains that way. But it will only get harder for her to learn to stand up for herself as she gets older. Healthy boundaries are crucial to a health adulthood. Ever had a stalker? Kindness does not get them to go away. Even kindly asking them to go away does not get them to go away. For that matter, being a B*tch doesn't get them to go away either. The ONLY way to get them to go away is to literally ignore them - pretend they aren't there, don't exist. Sounds harsh, yes? It is. But this child is, in a very real sense, stalking Kelly. Hold her, hug her, wipe away the tears she sheds when she feels guilty for being cruel. But tell her she has an OBLIGATION to herself to draw boundaries and maintain HEALTHY friendships. She has an obligation to herself to pretend this girl does not exist when this girl is crossing into her boundaries. It is going to be very hard for her and for you. But better she learn this lesson now, while the price is cheap, than as a teen or young adult when it is a hormone crazed boy following her everywhere.

Think he has any carrots on his planet?

sure Robin we have room. Email me Abigail0900@yahoo.com

CW, A similar thing happened here in Michigan. The girl was pressured to give up her child for adoption and leave the father, cause he was an unbeliever. She did, but eventually changed her mind, married the father and the case ended up in the courts because they wanted the child back. It was before my days in TWI, but I came across the story on the internet - it made the papers. If I remember correctly, the father never signed over his parental rights so the adoption wasn't legit to begin with and I believe they did get their baby back.

"Then they shouldn't have volunteered. They didn't have to. They could have just been Joe Believers." What, you think Joe Believers didn't have guns to their heads? How about your spouse, children, parents, who are in? Not to mention all the fear motivated teachings. After I left TWI, but while I was still married to my ex, the pressure he was under to choose between his "possessed" wife and children and the GOD of TWI - pressure applied directly be leader**** - was so intense that my ex put a loaded gun in his mouth. I'm thankful he didn't pull the trigger. The pressure was so intense that it pretty much pushed him right over the edge and into physical violence. I knew it would go that way when I left TWI too. That was just one of several guns to my head. I knew if I left TWI it would end my marriage and leave my children without a father under the same roof as them. I did get my ex to go to marriage counseling with me after I left, but it all went in one ear and out the other, cause afterall the counselor "didn't know or believe The Word". His life is still a mess. Now does all the blame lay at the feet of TWI? Absolutely not. But there certainly is some that belongs there, starting with the pressure they put on people to mark and avoid anyone who leaves, even if they are married to them. And how about the pressure they put on a man to control his wife - now tell just how does one person control another person, short of physical violence? Persuade and convince, yes, but control????? Thank God mine is not and my children have Sushi as a wonderful example of what a loving man should be.

I lost my mom shortly after I joined TWI. I was 23. She died of the worst of all sins, cancer. No one from TWI would help me take care of her or even visit me while I was taking care of her. No one from TWI came to the funeral (at a Synogogue). A few years later my grandmother died. She was in the hospital while I was sitting through yet another class. My sister-in-law called me to tell me my uncle was disconnecting her life support and I should come right away. Leadership (can you believe I actually felt I had to ask PERMISSION to go see my grandmother on her death bed??????)told me the choice was mine, but of course pointed out I wouldn't be allowed to finish the class and would have to take it another time. I didn't make it to Detroit in time, she was gone before I got there. Again, no one from TWI came to the funeral or comforted me while I mourned.

Hi Allan - if you are interested in doctrinal discussions there is a forum for it. This particlar forum isn't really about debating doctrinal issues, it is for discussing our experiences and thoughts regarding TWI. Just in case you weren't aware.

Go ahead and report it MJ. Shouldn't be hard to find the number in the state of Michigan. I have always honestly reported my income and living situation. I have nothing to fear. I'm not stupid - I would never have said squat about my financial situation on a public website if I was hiding income.

MJ *I* never said you were a CPS worker. What I said is that YOU once said you worked in the social services field - learn how to read. Find the post - you don't have many? I actually did spend some time looking for it, but you have 94 pages of posts and frankly - you are NOT WORTH that much of my time.

Here Brother Speed, I'll help ya out a bit more. "why do we have so many absent fathers? many times it may be because they can not fight against the woman and her allegations and give up the fight because of money or emotions or just to try to keep the children from being hurt by the WAR. woman with children for decades sat on welfare and accused their husbands of not being worthy parents having a attorny paid for by the court." These are the very accusations MJ once threw at me when I shared some vulnerable parts of my life. The irony in this is, my childrens' father has very liberal rights to visitation. One day a week and all weekend, three weekends a month. But HE choses to live with a woman who wants nothing to do with his children. HE chooses to pick them up for a few hours on Sunday only. I utilized our welfare system briefly after my divorce, until I could get on my feet again. I was accused by MJ of being a welfare mom who sat around neglecting my children and teaching them how to live on the government dole. Yet, here I am working and supporting my family WITHOUT child support, because their father rarely pays it. (And I was working the entire time I utilized our welfare system as well). I no longer receive public assistance. BUT, without the help I received from the government (tax dollars I also have contributed since I was 15 years old) I would not have been able to get out of an abusive marriage and retain custody of my kids. For whatever reason, (and I believe she is mentally ill and THAT is the reason) MJ has to go on a rampage here from time to time. She does this by finding a poster who has shared a vulnerable story from his/her (usually HER) life and doing everything she can to tear them to shreds. It is abusive. I have been on the receiving end and I have seen many others who have been there also. However, when she is not in one of her rages, you will find MJ often posts opinions that directly contradict what she says when she is in a rage. So, while you have a valid point about labelling people, as you get to know me you will find that I too, in general, dislike rages. However, I am not afraid to call a spade a spade. In time, you will realize it is MJ who treats people as a stereotype. Yes, there are bitter women who abuse the system - but most are not so - however MJ will throw that accusation out blindly. Yes, there are women who turn a blind eye to child abuse committed by their spouses - but most do not. However, again, MJ will throw out that accusation blindly because it suits her need to abuse people.

Brother Speed, you are relatively new here and do not know the posters well. You will in time. What you don't realize is, MJ has flat out stated she once worked in the social services field - not in this thread, but in another. What you don't know is, many of the people who may appear to be "getting on MJ" once had a decent posting relationship with her. But in time, you will find she turns viciously on most of the people who were once kind to her. What you don't know is, MJ often speaks as one who actually knows what she is talking about. When in fact, she knows nothing about what she is talking about. Take some time, read some posts. Get to know the posters a bit and things will be less confusing to you.

Here’s how far we have come when it comes to domestic violence, criminal sexual conduct, violence in general . . . . (From the Courts section of our newspaper) * Al W. Jessup, 44, 1100 block of West Allegan, Lansing, felonious assault with a dangerous weapon, four days in jail, four days credit, * Omokiniovo Ejoh, 20, 3900 block of Hunters Ridge, Lansing, criminal sexual conduct-assault with intent to commit sexual penetration, 10 months in jail, 163 days credit * Bo-James Toth, 18, 4500 block of Charles Street, Palo, criminal sexual conduct, assault with intent to commit sexual penetration, 23-120 months in prison * Gabriel David Parsons, 19, 800 block of West Jefferson, Grand Ledge, felonious assault with a dangerous weapon, 12 months in jail, Unfortunately, I couldn't get the archives beyond this past week without paying for them. If I had, you would see that those who are convicted of domestic violence get less time than those above. Now imagine, you are a woman home alone with your children and your hubby is REALLY peaved at you cause you just had his foot hauled off to jail for beating the **** out of you. That last time he didn't kill you, but now he is even more ****** off. How many stories do we have to read in the papers about men killing their spouses and sometimes even their children before we understand just how difficult it is to get out of a violent relationship? Yes, MJ, I got out successfully. BUT, my situation wasn't NEARLY as bad as Mo's. I had a good support system, family members, etc. My family has a lot of attorneys in it, including my dad. I had an understanding of how our legal system works. I knew I had to document, document, document, before I went to court. And even with all the help I had it was very hard and very scary. Even with all the help I had, my ex still was allowed to sit in his car all night watching my house. And IF he had gone far enough over the edge, I have no doubt that he could have broke into the house and seriously hurt my and/or the kids before help arrived.

In case some of you missed this . . . . Shell - "Again I ask did I understand you to say once that you were educated in the human service/social work field? Please note word 'educated'. College, degree, training." MJ - "yep bought and paid for." and later by MJ - "I am not a CPS worker never have been. I work in customer service in a store of sorts. lol" "

and here's an interesting inconsistency to help show that the statement's made by a certain poster are more about preying on someone than about being passionate about what they believe . . . . "phediles are master at illusion and are very good at appearance to the public eye to create an atmosphere of trust " " child molesters are not grown men getting creepy one day they are true con men able to avoid being accused with years of practice and lies, they are driven by a desire that forces them to live with society norms, with a passion that is out of control. MOST do not get caught because they appear as normal and often times very helpful and loving of children. " "few see a victim till it is to late. " "child molesters are trusted loved and cherished by children and their families. child molesters seldom if ever admit to being wrong in their behaviour. " "my wise old daughter said the other day we are trained to ignore our voice as woman in society to not ride agaisnt a man and his power." hmmm - seems rather inconsistent to me anyway. Except that, and the point is, it isn't that she doesn't get it. It's that at this moment getting doesn't suit her agenda. Predator.

I've said it before and I will say it again - abusive people prey on people they think they can victimize. Here at the cafe, we have a few predators who LOVE to prey on those who expose their vulnerabilities. If you can't figure out who the predators are - here's some quotes to help you recognize one. . . . "victims become victimizers." Not all do - but there are definitely SOME who have done just that. " NO longer can a man be blamed for the abuse in the house " "for years woman held the reigns (sic) tight on the kids" Understand - I am all for the rights of fathers. But, this thread is about men who abuse and molest children. In this context, those statements are beyond indefensible.

"if you call the police and they suspect even suspect abuse no marks no confession they will arest both parites. YES! and the children will be taken out of the home until court can be held" In my state, they don't arrest ANYONE unless there are obvious signs of abuse. And even then, the man is usually free again in a couple of days. Don't know what planet you are on - but that's how it works here. "Yes I applaud the fact both parties in domestic abuse will go to jail! the victims are the children. " Sure it is. And everyday, there are also women who are denied an order of protection too. Cause some cop didn't file a police report. Or cause the man could afford a better lawyer. Or a dozen other reasons. SICK, SICK, SICK. Most often the kids would be best left with the non-abusive parent and some serious family counseling and intervention. "do not tell me you could not get an order of protection , do not tell me you couldnt legaly sperate from this man because it is done everyday " "NO longer can a man be blamed for the abuse in the house " Ahhh - it all becomes clear. Now I know who you are MJ - you're my ex-husband.

I read the court section in our newspaper. Week after week I read about small time drug dealers and people who commit petty larceny getting locked up for 3 - 5 years. Week after week I read about men who are arrested for domestic violence, assault with a deadly weapon, sexual abuse against children and they are required to take anger management courses and released in less that a year. We have made babysteps but we have a long ways to go. Sure - pack up and move away from your support (i.e. family) with small children and no job. Yeah that's the way to go. Easy, sure. I'm guessing MJ has never tried to go to sleep at night knowing her abusive husband is sitting in his car at the end of the street watching the house. MJ's never had the cops tell her that even though you have a personal protection order out against him - he is free to sit at the end of the street because he's not within 100 feet of you. Never had a wacked out nut case track her across the country after telling everyone he is going to bring her back home. Ignorant.

"With the help of the police remove my husband, from the home, and take whatever steps necessary to keep him away so he didn't kill us. They didn't want to pursue this action" Mo, I hear you even if certain others refuse to. I was fortunate in that things did not go so far in my situation. BUT I had the police out to my house on 3 occassions and NOT ONCE did they write up a police report. On one occassion, they took my (now) ex-husband's gun and still no report. Makes it very difficult when you go to court and there is no police report to back up what you have said.

I guess us northern folks just aint so subtle. When we want to insult them, we just put it out there right in the open and say it to the bit*h's face. :D--> The Brooklyn alphabet (per the man who would know) F**king A, F**king B, F**king C . . .

I will repeat what Shell so succinctly said earlier - MJ has not and WILL not hear a word Mo has said. And here is something that just makes my spine curl . . . . . MJ said "Yes shellon I have a very rich past and present with those who advocate for children in the courts and otherwise. " If after reading this thread and then reading that sentences you don't understand what can go wrong with our social services system, then you are brain damaged.

Abusive people prey on those who they believe are weak and/or vulnerable. Mo, you shared your heart regarding a very vulnerable topic - doesn't get more vulnerable that that, really. What you may not realize is this is MJ's thing. Those of us who've read her posts for a while have seen the pattern. There is no point in defending or explaining yourself to an abusive person - it just fans the flames. No need to explain to the rest of us either. Most of us get it. And most of us have seen enough of MJ's post to recognize what a twisted person she is.

"I think most people in The Way were normal. " well, I don't have many comparisons to draw on Laleo. I gave up on trying to fit in with what seems to by my idea of "normal" when I left TWI. The price is just to high if it means I have to stop being me. In or out of TWI, in my experience that seems to often to be the case. "In fact, they were among the kindest people I've met before or since." There I would agree with you for sure, at least in part. Those I knew my first few years in, most certainly were some of the kindest people I ever knew - and in a sense, I think that makes them abnormal too - lol lol. In my latter years with TWI, I would say the kind ones were few and far between. Those who had the most wonderful hearts got out before I did. I'm thankful I got out intact at all.