Abigail

Dangit. Figured I'd take the top, since you love it so much, Cathy. HERE! Hey, at least I tried.

Actually, this was posted by Sushi: Yes, she can be. But then there's THIS!

These idiots came to Michigan not too long ago. The Freedom Riders came also, I am pleased to say. Because of them, our state legislature is currently working on a bill that would ban protests within 500 feet of a funeral service.

"We were once a family within a family that was presented to us as The Way International. We shared on some level, we loved together, we laughed and cried and raised babies and lived actual lives." Ah, but were we really? Or did we just pretend to be. I can tell you only my experience. In the beginning I did have friends who I loved like family. Those people I do still love, though some of us no longer speak to each other for reasons I cannot even begin to understand. Those people I would take care to not hurt, even when we disagree. But by the end of my TWI days, there wsa no family within a family. There was, by and large, simply a group of people I had to get along with, whether I liked them or not. Some I did, some I did not. But certainly there was a vast difference in that they were not people I could share my heart with, for to expose yourself to one of them was to risk exposing yourself to all. It left you wide open to public reproof and humiliation as we were expected to "tattle" on one another. Still, I would use some amount of care with those people, because they are still just that - people. BUT, if I felt one was attacking me or mine, I would do what is also human nature and defend myself, protect my boundaries. "How is it that we were all in the same place, hearing the same words, playing the same game with the same pieces got to this place?" Ah, but is that true? When I read what people share of their experiences in TWI, I conclude that we were not all in the same place and hearing the same words. And that does account for a good degree of the fighting around the cafe - or rather, the unwillingness to accept that we DID have different experiences is the cause of it. Those who walked away relatively unscathed and those who walked away bruised or broken seem to have a difficult time accepting the experiences of the opposite camp. "The place where we've forgotten what our original goal was when we left. What was your goal, did you have one, do you remember it?" I had few goals when I initialy left, beyond basic survival and healing. Those goals I have met. I have formed many other goals since then, but few if any of them are related to TWI. "Do you remember what you felt if you considered what you'd say or do when you might run into old friends? That's perhaps changed over time as you realized you would/could find old friends. Did you expect that you'd do such battle with them or others that walked the same road as you?" I don't remember giving much thought to what it would be like to run into other wayfers, in or out. I do know I would do as always and hold my head high, not let them kick me again. As for those who were truly friends, with them there would be no need to "hold my head high" because the love we had would still be there and that I have found to be true. I don't do battle with old friends, even those who have chosen a different path than I. We love each other enough to give each other the room we need to be who we are. "I want to understand what the anger really is. Is it rage at a man that performed such life altering behaviors as to never be healable? Is it rage at a man that has fallen from his position of power and control and now lives a life totally differant? " I think the rage is on so many different levels and for so may different reasons - each person has their own story, and the stories are numerous. "I want to remember the joy we felt that day in april not so many years ago when the first domino of his fall was touched to begin a process the likes of which we may never see again" Again, this difference in experiences. I felt no joy. Mostly what I felt was fear, and that fear remained for quite a long time. I think the ugliness comes as part of the healing process. After so many years of not having a voice, it takes a lot of time to find one again. That process often includes doing it straight from the gut - regardless of how harsh it is, until we re-learn how to do it more gently. And I would add, I don't think straight from the gut is always a bad thing. We are learning two things at the very least 1) how to speak up and voice our opinions and 2) how to hold our boundaries when others would trample them. As for what those who are still in see when they come here? I can't say, beyond saying that each person who comes here probably sees something a little different. I saw and continue to see people who love each other, people who dislike each other, people who agree and who are also allowed to disagree. Greasespot may not be the right fit for everyone. It can be a rough place at times, no doubt. There are certainly those who cannot handle that roughness or are not yet ready to handle that roughness. But the cool thing is, there are other ex-way websites that would be a good fit for those people too. And so, I am left feeling that the "need is covered" one way or another.

A cry for help or confidence that little will occur if caught - EArlier in this thread, someone posed the notion that perhaps it was a cry for help. I still think otherwise. If caught these perps have little to fear I was reading a story this morning about a teacher in Warren, Michigan who was convicted of criminal sexual conduct for molesting a number of his students. His was sentenced to 1 year and released last month. 10 girls ages 9 - 11 all claimed he held them against their will and groped them. I wonder how many more girls he will molest before he is caught again?

Thank you Kathy. I am no different then you. Like you, I have taken the hard knocks and tried to use those lessons towards a positive purpose. Unfortunately Kathy, there is no "one answer fits all" to this problem. There are steps we can take to reduce the risks, but I don't think we can eliminate them altogether. "What of the child who was already deficient (myself as example) who craved just by human nature alone for a male to reach out and love her. And maybe we come back to the why didn't my mother see it in me. And where does that lead us but back to what happened to her in her life (my conception). Gosh, I guess I just can't use me as an example. " "Let's say the child has a deficiency in some manner, possibly even unknown to the most loving of parents. What do we tell them to help them not reach out for inappropriate means of satisfying a yearning heart?" Unfortunately, if the parent does not see the deficiency, all we can pray for is that someone else in the community (a safe person) does. Even then, there may be only so much that person can do for the child. BTW, I don't see "craving for a male to reach out and love" as a deficiency in the child, all children need love and role models from both genders. It could indicate a deficiency in parenting, though I do not mean that to sound as harsh as I suspect it does. I think most parents do the best they know how. None of us are born knowing how to be a good parent. Some parents also face more hardships than others. There are those who struggle with poverty and must face leaving their child unsupervised so they can work or face starvation and homelessness. There are those, like my own mom, who was struggling to make ends meet and go to school so we could all have a better life. That left her with little time to be physically, mentally, or emotionally present. My mom could not protect me as a child because she did not have the mental and emotional ability to allow herself to see what was going on. Denial. I did speak up, she couldn't hear. Regardless, and while I believe she failed to protect me, I also believe she did the best she could. And perhaps it is because I know she did do her best and she did love me, that I have been able to overcome so much. Perhapys therein lies the answer. Love.

Kathy, "At risk of sounding like a broken record....What do we tell our children about being careful around their grandpa's? The broken record part would be that point and this one....I'm convinced there are more family and friends sexually abusing their own sphere of influence than we'll ever read in court documents." Statistics would prove you correct. Far more incidents of child molestation occur between a family member and a child than between a stranger in a child. What do we tell our children? We teach our children about what is appropriate and inappropriate touch. The school my kids attend starts teaching this in kindergarden, but I began having these discussions with my children even before then. I began these discussions with my kids as we began learning the proper names for body parts. As we began discussing what would happen at the doctor's office when they had a physical examination. As we began discussing the differences between a boys body and a girls body. I did my best to keep the conversations within a context that was not scary, but would still allow for me to explain who was allowed to touch their body, where, and under what circumstances. We also must teach our children that it is okay to say no to an adult, to yell, to kick. And we teach our children it is okay to tell. That between mom, dad, and children there should be NO SECRETS regardless of the threats someone else should make. Jumping, "And speaking of perverts, did anybody think VPW's Christian Family & Sex class was just plain pornographic? " Yes. I was very uncomfortable when I took that class. I was even more uncomfortable because there were 13 year old children taking that class with me. Our class coordinator took two barbie dolls and positioned them in the "69" position on top of the television set. Talk about pruning a child for what may come later! Wow!

"I just finished my taxes a little while ago. Last year, I ended up (not including sales tax) paying 45% of my income to the government (well over $15K to the state alone). I'm afraid I don't know where I'll come up with more money to pay for it. After all, when somebody is "willing to pay," it's usually people like me who end up picking up the tab." Mark, I pay taxes too. I too would be "picking up the tab". I suspect your own willingness to pay would increase greatly if it were your child's school that the shooting took place at, or your child who was abducted and killed. Hard to imagine, eh? Hard for me too, regardless of how close to home this stuff occurs. The mind just doesn't want to picture such a thing happening to one of our own. Unfortunately, I have to picture it, at least to some degree, because it keeps me more vigiliant in protecting my own children. Gone are the days I grew up in, when we could ride our bikes around the neighborhood without a care in the world. Instead, I have to teach my children to be aware of who is around them, alert for not just strangers, but those they trust who may not deserve the trust. Thankfully, there are some wonderful books on the market now, that help parents teach our children these things without frightening them too much. "I, too, would like to see more research. But two points: - what about the agenda of the researchers? - are we willing to do what the research recommends? What if they recommend the first amendment get restricted to exclude porn? To exclude political speech? To exclude some kinds of music? etc." Agenda of the researchers? Well in that sense, one could say all research is flawed, but we still have to move forward doing the best we can. As for first amendment restrictions - they already exist, it is only a matter of degrees. Would I have a problem with restricting porn? nope, I do not see porn as necessary to the pursuit of freedom and happiness, etc. Political speech? I cannot for the life of me see why political speech would have to be restricted. Music? While again I agree there is music out there that is very violent, sexually explicit etc., I am not convinced it has the same effect on the mind that visual stimulation has. I could be wrong though - I guess that is where the research would be necessary. Belle, I agree the police officers have a very difficult job. One that is frustrated by a legal system that continues to release violent criminals after the police have arrested them. Add to that, the families who get angry when it is their child or loved one who is arrested for a crime. Add to that the few bad ones who do things (such as what occured here a few weeks ago) like commit a crime and then accuse someone else of doing it. We had a meeting with our local police officers after the shooting at the school. A lot of neighbors were angry about the amount of drug deals that take place at the school and local parks. They said they call the police on a regular basis as drug deals are going down, and the police don't come. The Captain responded by asking if the neighbors would support them if they did come? His point? People want the police to arrest the bad guys, but when they stop and question your child, the people yell harrassment or racism. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. I also agree regarding parents doing their job. There is only one child in our neighborhood, whose house I will let my boys go to. (The other kids can come here, but I won't let my boys go to their homes). And the ONLY reason I let my kids go to the one boy's house is because I can see them from my own. Now, they do have friends from school, whose homes they can go to, whose parents I have met and trust. My first litmous (sp) test for the parents is to invite the child to my home. If the parents will let their child come to my home, without meeting me or even knowing where I live, I will NOT let my child go to theirs. I figure, if they aren't concerned about who their kid plays with, they certainly aren't concerned about where my child is playing.

Yes, I would pay to keep them in prison if that is what it takes. I would also be in favor of the death penalty for repeat violent offenders (I say repeat, because if they have been convicted more than once, odds are higher they weren't wrongly convicted). Last year, a girl who lived 3 blocks from us was abducted from her grandmother's home and killed - again by a repeat violent offender. I would also like to see some research put into why these crims are committed and alternatives to how we can prevent them. Lansing has seen some rough times economically, and I believe that as our economy contineus to fail, crime will continue to go up. That is one correlation. As access to more and more graphic sexual material becomes easier and easier, I do think that will drive crime up. As more and more kids (particularly those in their teen years - which is such a difficult developmental stage) are left unsupervised with too much time on their hands, crime will continue to go up.

But only a little. As I read my morning news, and check out the court section, I find the following A) A man convicted of assaulting a police officer - he is listed as a habitual offender, his sentences is 14 months to 3 years in prison. B) A Sex offender is sentenced for failing to register, he gets 20 days in jail. C) Another man is conviced of assault with a deadly weapon, domestic violence, second offense, he gets 1 year. I could go on with the sentencing lists, but you get my point. Last Thursday a 17 year old boy was shot in the chest 3 times, on a school playground 3 blocks from my home. The suspect (who is still on the loose) is a 25 year old boy who is "well known to the police", is listed as a habitual offender, and already has 2 assault convictions on his records. He only did 3 years for the two assualt convictions. I don't know how we can protect ourselves or prevent someone from committing their first crime. I don't have the answer to that. But what I cannot understand is WHY WHY WHY do we continue to release known violent offenders back into our society?????

I think there are different levels and degrees of porn - soft, hard core, etc. So in discussing this, some definitions of terms may be needed. I have no issue with "soft" porn, which can be tastefully done. However, I do think the hard core stuff has the potential to harm and and that potential does reach fruition. First, hard core porn tends to objectify the participants, and most frequently women. Second, it does desensitize one to sexuality, so that what was once a beautiful act between two people is now something entirely different. It moves and at time erases boundaries. There was a time, when maybe some of these boundaries needed to be moved, to allow for more open discussions on the topic of sex, but we have since moved way beyond that. And finally, as I think was pointed out elsewhere in this thread or another, its portrayal changes sex from an act that was about give and take, to one that is strictly about take. And lordy does it change ones perspective and expectations about the act. I wonder how many guys out there think they have to make their woman "plateau the mountain" several times, or else they are not considered to be a good lover? How many women think they have to be flexable enough to bend into a pretzel, thin enough to wear a size two and yet still have boobs big enough to fill out Dolly's bra in order to be sexy?

Thanks for the link, Goey! That is a fascinating read, one I will re-read a few times. I see many shades of Caballa there, as well as the oral traditions of Judaism.

Wow Mo, the way Allen stalks you on these forums could leave one to thinking he has a crush on you or something Kinda like the first grader who keeps on pulling the braids of the little girl in front of him. Can anyone post more about what the Gospel of Judas actually says?

It could be a sensory issue as well. That certain textures really gross him out, while others don't. It is very difficult to tell what is going on with these little guys who can't talk to us yet. But as Safari said, as long as he is gaining sufficient weight, he's doing okay. My younger son HATED baby food, especially the cereals and they gave him constipation. He went from breast milk to toddler food, skipping the baby food stage altogether. He only ate the toddler food for a very short time before switching to soft "adult" foods. My older son LOVED baby food. Go figure.

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While I found the picture grotesque (sp), I also found it very appropriate for this thread. Although Mark could have put any number of our pictures there and it might have been even more appropriate. Having read a number of CK's posts, I'd say he is guilty of exactly what he accuses, except it is those who have been hurt he persecutes, instead of his precious. as he said, he ONLY continues to come here BECAUSE of those who express their anger and hurt, the betrayal of VPW. "The only thing I can say is "IF" VPW did this to any of you what makes you better to persecute him. Wouldn't it be better to be bigger than that and just forgive" The above says so much about him. I guess my tag line sums it up well enough.

"Violence is about control. Control is about domination. Domination is about mating and procreation. Procreation is about sex. No matter how tepid and tame it may be portrayed to be in the American middle-class experience, sex is at the root of most controlling and violent behavior in the world, and that includes the animal kingdom as well as the human. " and "This popular doctrine that rape is not about sex is eventually going to be recognized as feminist nonsense. Radical feminists believe that ALL sex is rape. Therefore all sex is about control and violence, to hear them tell it." I for one have no idea what "radical feminists" believe, nor do I see the relevence of it to this topic. Most people who fall into a "radical" category have little credibility anyway. However, I wanted to go back to your prior statement about sex being the root of most controlling and violent behavior. As I said earlier, I disagree. I believe the root of most violent and controlling behavior is a feeling of a lack of control in ones own life. In other words, one seeks to control those around them when one feels out of control within themself.

Ask a social worker or psychologist and they will tell you, even children who are horribly abused still love their parents. Of course you don't want those you loved and trusted locked up, regardless of what they did. In Michigan, if a woman is abused by her spouse and reports it to the police, charges are pressed against the spouse by "the people" not the woman. In other words, the spouse is charged regardless of whether or not the woman presses charges. Why? Because she loves her husband and is not likely to press charges. She will often stay until he kills her or comes close to it. She can't leave, because he will track her down and beat her. She can't prosecute, because she loves him. Far worse is the crime perpetrated by a loved one, than the crime perpetrated by a stranger. It is also the more common. Although access to chat rooms may change that. I think there are warning signs and symptoms. Perhaps not always, but often. The trouble is, we are trained not just by TWI, but by society, not to think evil. Innocent until proven guilty. And often the signs are very subtle. A creepy feeling, an intuition, a hunch. Be we aren't taught to trust those subtle things. Don't misunderstand me, in the legal system I fully believe in innocent until proven guilty. But in my personal life, I have learned to trust my gut. I would much rather wrongfully offend an uncle, cousin, brother, in an attempt to protect my child than, to allow my child to be hurt because I was distrustful of my instincts or worried about someone else's feelings.

1) I have no disagreement with the concept that it is a sickness, be it via compulsion/control/whatever. Likewise, I would say serial killers committ their crimes due to a sickness as well. So do we feel sorry for the serial killers? Do we unleash them upon society to kill again? Most drug dealers (even the small time ones) get longer sentences than many pedophiles! In any case, our society - our psychiatrists and psychologists - have no idea how to cure this sickness, if it can be cured. Statistics bear that out. So, the only way to protect our chidren is to educate them and to lock these sick people up and throw away the key. 2) Having been the "victim" of one of these sick people, I do not believe for one minute it is about sex drive at all. It is about power and control. "Violence is about control. Control is about domination. Domination is about mating and procreation. Procreation is about sex" Yes, I think violence is often about control and control about domination. However, I don't buy into domination being about mating and procreation, and ultimately sex. Having been in a healthy sexual relationship with a healthy man, without all the control issues that existed in my previous relationship - there is a world of difference. And that difference is manifested in EVERY aspect of the relationship. 3) "We need to recognize that the sexual drive is cyclical, and that the predator might be reached at it's low end. We need to make use of our knowledge, to exploit what we know" I likewise don't buy that it is cyclical. Again, because I have been on the receiving end and there was no cycle to it - at least not one that was obvious - and believe me I learned early on to watch for patterns and cycles in order to try and avoid other abusive behaviors. But for the sexual ones - there was no pattern, no warning signs, and no discernable cycle. Perhaps, because as I stated above, this isn't about sex drive - it is about control. 3) My statement regarding empathy was in response to the following: "Brian Doyle's life is over. His humiliation is probably worse than death (to him). He is a leper, a pariah, a piece of filth in the eyes of everyone he ever cared about. His career is finished. His future is prison, possibly resulting in his own murder, and a life of abject shame. Look what it's cost him. You think he didn't know it could happen?" Given our judicial system's sentencing history, it is very possible - particularly for someone who can afford a good attorney - that this guy will be unleashed upon us again in the not too distant future. No, I have no pity for him - I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to feel that for him. If that somehow makes me less intelligent and more prone to "mob mentality" so be it.

Satori, I have to say, I find it very odd that you have so much empathy for pedophiles and so little empathy for those who fall on hard times and need financial assistance from the government for a time. I agree with Coolwaters - this isn't a problem of sex drive. A man can take care of his sex drive without raping a woman or a child.

Michigan is currently working on similar legislation. Our senate recently passed a bill that calls for a minimum 25 year sentence for sexual crimes against children under 13. Once paroled, these offenders would be on an electronic tether for life. I fully support this bill.

"What is it about sex? About having our bodies taken against our wills? Does that gender certain breakdowns do we know? I for one can assure you I've been one screwed up person at times. And even now work hard every single day to be somewhat normal. " Kathy, as we have discussed, the body is designed to respond to certain stiumlation. What greater betrayal is there, than to have your own body respond sexually against your will? Yes, I think that does gender certain breakdowns.

"If, as a parent, you find out that your child was molested do you insist that they go get counselling and continue with that throughout the kid's life? I mean, how can you tell when the child is okay? Children are resilient, but those kinds of scars last forever. And then do you worry that your child might become a molester? What do you do to prevent that from happening? CAN you prevent that from happening? Is it horrible to think that, that could possibly be an outcome of what your child had to endure? How does a parent deal with that kind of situation knowing that a lot of molested kids become molestors?" Every parent, child, and situation is different, Belle. I can only speak to what I have done and probably would do. 1. My children are already aware of the fact that there are people out there who would hurt them. 2. My children are aware of what is appropriate and what is inappropriate touch. 3. My children know that I want them to be where they are supervised by an adult, either myself or someone I trust. 4. They know who to look for if they are ever lost or separated from the adult they are supposed to be with (a woman with children - safest bet). 5. They know to scream, hit kick, and bite (below the belt or in the eyes) if they have to defend themselves because they cannot run away (first line of defense is always run away). and perhaps most important of all - they know they have the right to say NO to anyone who touches them in a way that makes them uncomfortable. NOW - if it happened despite all of that 1. I would let my child know they did NOTHING wrong and have no need to feel ashamed - even if they thought it felt good. 2. I would share my childhood experiences so they know they are not alone. 3. Counseling would be continuing until myself, the child, and the counselor ALL felt it was no longer necessary.

"Once the initial horror of the encounters became a lesser horror I began to enjoy it. I was guilt ridden to the point I can't describe, in fact to type these words is making me scream inside it was so freaking destructive this guilt I held." That, Kathy, is one of the greatest horrors of molestation, and it is the one that is the least spoken of. It needs to be talked about openly. I too was molested growing up. I was molested off and on from the time I was about 8 or 9 years old, until I was 14 and then again, while married to my ex. It started with my older brother and his friends. It went on to include the "gang" of boys that I lived near and went to school with. It finished when I divorced my ex, who was taught by TWI that he owned his wife's body. In many ways, my experiences were not nearly as horrifying as what those of you who were molsted by adults you trusted were. But there are similarities. The fact is, the human body is designed to respond to certain stimulation. The fact is, it will. The fact is, the human mind is designed to do what it must to keep us going. So, when faced with a horrible situation where you have no control, what better way to gain some of it back than to allow what pleasure you can, that which your body was designed to feel, out of the experience. Unfortunately, as you have pointed out, that too comes with a huge price... guilt. But you have nothig to feel guilty for. Your body and your mind did what it was designed to do and you survived the unspeakable. And now, here you are, speaking the unspeakable. Good for you, it needs to be said!

" lied in part earlier. I said my mother didn't know to even look for something in a 4 year old. But when I was 5 she found me doing things a 5 year old shouldn't do to their bodies and she scolded me. Was that sufficient oversight? Please don't answer me because I know the answer " Kathy, I suspect the answer is not what you think it is. I don't know if this information will be helpful to you or not, will bring some added peace to your perspective regarding your mom or not, but I hope it will help someone, if not you. If you ask almost any pediatrician, they will tell you it is perfectly normal for children between the ages of roughly 4 - 8 to begin self exploration of their bodies in a sexual way (of course, they may or may not actually be aware of the concept of sex, but they understand what feels good). This self-exploration is not necessarily a sign of prior or ongoing sexual abuse. Then, usually around the age of 8 or 9, the children sort of "forget" about this exploration and move onto other things in life, until they hit puberty. I suspect, what actually occured is that because in your situation you had already experienced sex in a horrible and terrifying way, this exploration brought with it a lot of really bad feelings that would not otherwise have been there.