Abigail

Mo, I hear what you are saying - but having been involved with GSC pretty much since it's birth, I have to say there have been very very few instances of true trolling and many many instances of false accusations against legitimate new posters. Groucho, You hit the nail on the head with what I was trying to say. And I get the "lets play nice crowd". But really, if we cannot express that we have a different opinion from someone else, and then discuss our reasonings for our different pov's - what the heck is the point of even having a conversation? I don't usually spend a lot of my posting time going back and forth with people I agree with and telling them how much I agree with them. I enjoy debating different points of view - it allows me to examin my own POV and it allows me to see things from different perspectives. And when I come across a poster who consistently seems to derail threads with insults and jabs that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, I would like to feel free to call a spade a spade and tell him/her what I jackass I think he/she is behaving like. But please note the use of the word 'consistently' which would most certainly NOT apply to a new poster who has not had time to establish a consistent pattern. Jim, "If a subject is opened for discussion, that just opens the subject to discussion. it does not automatically open for discussion the beliefs of the participant." I think I get what you are saying here, but (note I'm actually asking a question - lol) I wish to clarify. Are you saying that the subject of a given thread is open to discussion, but one should not drag all kinds of other stuff into the discussion. i.e. if you are discussing health issues with someone and you disagree with their pov - there is no need to drag in their opinion regarding VPW, PFAL, LDS, or whatever. In which case, I agree. It only serves to further derail and mire the thread.

"Hey Abi...no names or organizations were mentioned by me...is this an example of someone 'reading into' a post ? I think that happens a lot here at GS and has been acknowledged by you." Wanna bet? go back and read your post on page one of Paw's "throwing stones" thread. You did, in fact, name names and the organization. But I see you did manage to dodge answering my original question. Would you like me to repeat it?

So communism is wrong in any way shape or form, but fascism by a leader who wipes out millions of people or (for the sake of your perspective) even just thousands of people simply because they are of a particular ethnic, or (again for your sake religious) group is okay? :blink:

Allan, Seen as how you have already openly acknowledged that you have hounded Mo from thread to thread to thread because you had to/needed to/wanted to "prove your points with the LDS chuch " I am very curious as to what drives you to this stalker like behavior where Mo is concerned? What is so crucial about your point, or what it is you are so terrified of, that you would make yourself look like a complete jackass at best, and possibly a psycho, just to prove your point regarding the LDS church?

lol - and isn't that just the most beautiful example for how easy it is for any one of us to misunderstand someone else. And how easy it could be to clear up that misunderstanding if it was so desired. I didn't find the post offensive, fwiw. Though for the life of me, that kitty cat looks to me more like a duck.

Haha, spoken with your own bias as well Oldies Communism in its pure form is simply a type of economy, just like capitolism and socialism. In theory you could have a communist economy and a democtratic government or a capitalistic economy with a fascist government. As for supporting communism, well I don't think it HAS to be that god awful if it is done right. Likewise, I am not a support of pure capitolism either. My preference is for a blending of capitolism and socialism and I'm not ashamed to acknowledge it. However, I am opposed to fascism, dictators, monarchies, etc.

"I concur! I like who you are, too, Abigail, and wouldn't want you to change one bit. " Aw shucks, Belle, I knew that. Its okay for us to disagree about some things, doesn't change anything at all. " OR, I can "bless your heart" them and be on my way without them immediately knowing that I think they're out of line. If I'm wrong, then I've saved face. It's just a natural response for me; like yours is for you. " Ah, but from my POV - if I didn't want someone to know what I think, I'd simply not say anything at all. And I don't worry about saving face. I figure if it is a misunderstanding it will work itself out. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize - no bit deal to me. That's another beauty about being out of TWI - it's okay to make mistakes and be wrong. And Shell, lol!

I missed Goey's post on this, but I would state that one always has to consider the source. 1. I find a sworn affidavit by a witness who is receiving a huge monetary reward for making the statement to lack credibility unless there are other, unpaid witnesses to support the story. 2. I find IHR's version equally lacking in credibility, because they have an agenda. 3. There are credible witness who have testified regarding the Holocaust.

George, the places one would go with that statement. But even as unrelgious as I am in general, it would seem like sacrilidge to say it here, given the topic.

LOL - Hey Belle, maybe to some degree it's a regional thing. You wonderful Southern Bells are very creative with words and the manner in which you tell someone to go to hell. Us northerners lack your artistic linguistic skills and are simply blunt and to the point. When we want to tell them to go to hell, we do just that. It is not as creative, but it does communicate quite well. LOL ;)

"BUT a phrase was used that is a "trigger" for some and it does come across offensively to some, BUT before getting upset about it, wouldn't it be fair to allow the person to explain what they meant? " AH, but that is the thing about triggers - the upset part is usually fairly immediate, no? So, you can "pretend to not be upset" and ask questions, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Or, you can express how you are feeling and wait to see how the other person responds. I think there is validity to both methods. Method 1 - asking questions first, may reduce the number of arguments, not a bad thing. Method 2 - shoot first and ask questions later (which is often my method) allows me to practice expressing my thoughts and emotions in a thought out and tactful matter. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes I do not. BUT - after years of being unable to speak my mind, express my emotions, and in general call a spade a spade, I am not yet ready to give that up. IN addition, while I think the ask questions first method is very effective in face to face conversations - there is an aspect to doing that here in the forums that becomes problematic. Time. Say I see something that upsets me in a post and I ask about it. Well what happens if it is two weeks before the person comes back? What if they never come back? My question remains unanswered. Is that the end of the world? No, not necessarily, but it can become quite frustrating at times. On the other hand, it does give one time to cool off too. So, I guess what I am saying is there are pros and cons to both sides. And I think both methods are valid and necessary. Again, it goes back to that one size will NOT fit all thing. I guess, my pov at this time is that I am a "shoot first and ask questions later kinda person". I do my best to shoot at the specific phrase or point of view that is bothering me and not the person, therefore I am not personally attacking anyone. It is who I am, I like who I am, and I am not feeling particularly inspired to try and change that aspect of my personality. AND in the real world - we all have to deal with people who are like me (even I have to learn this). So, again, I see the forums as a great place to practice that skill.

"It just seemed a little over the top when someone mentioned the Waygb...........and another poster who hadn't posted but a couple times, was referred to as an innie who was a "plant" or something to that affect on a different " I would agree with you 100% on this. I see calling/accusing someone of being WAYGB, a Plant, or a Troll as an attack on character, which makes it a personal attack. as opposed to: Telling someone that something specific that they said reminds you of something that the "WAYGB or a troll" would say is different because you are dealing with a specific statement as oppposed to who the person is as a whole. I think it is something of a fine line, but it is a line that can make a lot of difference.

I am curious about this - - and I think it would bring some much needed understanding. The way I see it, throwing stones is attacking a persons character, name calling, etc. But does not include debating issues, particular words, points of view. If we could not disagree, could not debate, could not express that we found a particular phrase offensive, would we not, in part, be right back where we started? Unable to express ourselves, always having to smile and make nice even if we were hurt, angry, or confused on the inside?

I would point out that most of the time (though certainly not always) if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . . . IN addition - there is a HUGE difference between attacking a person's character, and taking issue with a particular statement or point of view. While personal attacks are against forum rules, debating issues is not. Nor is debating issues the same as "throwing stones". I don't think anyone was throwing stones at the person who made the "damaged people" remark, but simply took issue with the statement itself.

Right now, quality of life would be to live in a neighborhood where my boys can go out and ride their bikes or rollerblade without me having to be right there with them. A neighborhood where it was safe for kids to play together because everyone looked out for each other.

True story One day both the boys were in the basement, they were supposed to be cleaning up their toys. I was in the kitchen cleaning also. Apparently Aaron had no idea that I could hear them (one of the few benefits to a tiny house). So I overhear Aaron telling Jacob that he has to go to the bathroom. He says, "I'll be right back, you don't have to clean anything up while I'm gone, cause it won't be fair if you have to clean without me." Then he comes upstairs and says, "Mom, Jacob's not helping clean up" hahaha - the little stinker

(you'll NEVER guess what happened) This is near the top of my favorite songs on the album (I have this tendency to like the lesser known stuff) HERE!

Krys, Exactly, some people do not add healthy things to our lives, and our boundaries dictate we should avoid them. But that does not mean they do not add healthy things to someone else's life and that they should be avoided by everyone. Shell, " Were it not for the chips and cracks, where would be the character, where would be the charm?" Again agreed, like the favorite shoes Krys described. And wasn't that one of the tremendous problems within TWI - the attempt to make us all the same? And to go to the extreme end of damage . . . I have a cousin who is about 10 - 15 years older than I am. As a kid, she was one of my favorite cousins. She has battled with mental illness for most of her adult life, and was anorexic for many years. She finally seemed to recover for a time. Then a few years back she had a serious breakdown and was hospitalized for quite a while. When she was discharged from the hospital, into the care of her parents, she was heavily drugged - not sure what but am guessing Lithium. When I saw her that following Thanksgiving, it was like there was nothing left of her. She didn't speak, and though her body was there, her mind was not. Then this past Thanksgiving I saw her again. She was still pretty out of it, but not quite as much. I saw her again for Passover, she is still something of a shadow of her former self, but is also significantly improved. She was present with us mentally, and able to participate in conversations. [And an interesting thing - those evil words, the medication has caused her to put on quite a bit of weight to the point where she is now somewhat over weight. I told her I thought she looked good, healthier. She turned to her mom and said "see mom, she thinks I look good". I gathered later that her mom has been hounding her about the weight gain - yea that's a brilliant thing to do to someone who has battled anorexia ] Anyway, the point is, my cousin was severly shattered. So much so that many may have thrown her away. But instead people have been working to painstakenly glue all of those pieces back together again. She will always bear chips and cracks and will never be a perfet piece of china, but she is definitely worth the effort. And despite the hurtful things her parents may sometimes say to her, I have to admire them for the effort they put forth in helping her, especially in light of their own advancing age.

Triggers - most of us have them. Those words, phrases or concepts that trigger an immediate and intense emotional reaction. I suspect that plays a role in some of the fighting that goes on around here. When you have this many people and add in the uncountable number of different experiences, there is no way to avoid all of the landmines. We may be able to avoid some, but definitely not all. In another thread, someone made reference to the idea that Greasespot has some of the 'most damaged people in our country'. That's one of my triggers - being referred to as damaged. As a teen and in my early 20s my mom used to tell me I was "damaged goods" and no decent man would ever want to marry me. Well, for a long time I believed her and the results were readily visible in the relationships I got into. I have since then overcome the image of myself as "damaged goods", at least in the sense that my mother used it, but I still find that term offensive. Who in this country, or perhaps even this world, has lived to adulthood and not taken a few hits, sustained some damage? It is my opinion that no one has. Sure, some have taken more numerous or more damaging hits than others, but certainly most everyone has taken at least a few. Sure some of us have healed better, have less scars than others, but who doesn't have any residual effects from the hits they have taken? And is it always the individual's fault that they sustained a hit? Is it a child's fault that they were molested and retain some issues because of that? Is it an individuals fault that they were mislead by someone and took a hit from that experience? Yes, I think some of the damage some of us have sustained was self-inflicted - because of innocence, youth, or other undealt with issues, or perhaps simply bad choices. But I doubt that all of it was self inflicted. In either case - does the fact that one has some scars, has some "damage" make them less valuable? Should we toss them in the trash like a broken plate because they are damaged? And if so, who gets to determine where the dividing line is between who is worthy of keeping (maybe a simple crack in the plate or a chip is acceptable) and who gets thrown away?

"put up with the opinions of some of the most damaged people in our country" Gee, wasn't that nice

I am very curious, should you be willing to share the information, about what ADHD medication your son was taking prior to being hospitalized. We had Aaron on Strattera, which seemed to work for a while, but then began causing terrible mood swings which resulted in violent temper tantrums. We took him off of it and the problem resolved. His doctor was of the opinion that if he was having mood swings ON the Strattera, he would continue to have them off of it too. Well, he was right to a degree - he is still a moody little boy. But the violent temper tantrums have ceased and the "bad moods" are significantly milder and easier to manage. My pediatrician was telling me recently that another doctor who prescribes Strattera for a number of his patients found that correct dosing was crucial. Too much OR too little seemed to cause a lot of problems.

I have done some research on both of these subjects. We have talked before about the difficulties I have had with one of my kids. Differentiating between the two disorders in a child can be very very difficult - the symptoms often overlap. And yes, they can go hand in hand with each other. If you want to email me, I would be happy to share more with you. I am sorry your family had to go through this - it is a very scary experience. But I am glad your son is home and doing better. Abigail0900@yahoo.com

I long ago got over most of the shame of my past. I can't say all of it, because there is one person who would still like to beat me over the head with it and I have allowed him to get away with it. Once, several years ago now, I think, I posted some of my story in the my story forums. I eventually deleted the posts. I even went so far as to register under a new name, to protect myself from the fall-out of my posts. Perhaps for me, sharing this here as "Abigail" is another necessary step for me too - to stand up and NOT allow someone else to continue to try and shame me for my past. Though my shame comes not from the things that were done to me against my will, but for the choices I made, that hurt others, as I worked my way through the emotional mire I found myself in. Some of those choices have been posted here in the past - by the one who would like to shame me. I know a few of you saw it before it was deleted and I was overwhelmed by the loving support I received. So to add more to this topic, in light of recent events here, I would empatically say NO, I would not condemn one for the choices they too may have made in the past, that others would view as morally lacking. I wish only to point out what an incredibly sensative topic this is and how terribly important it is that we choose our words carefully when dealing with it.

Chef - we don't get over the loss of a parent, nor do we forget the pain we experienced as we watch them leave. With the passage of time, the pain because less of a constant, that is all. I am sorry for what you are going through. And Shell is right - I tell my boys that ALL grown ups cry, including men.

Roy, you really are one of the most wonderful voices here at the cafe. You are the example to all of us of how to rise above the hurt and anger. I too have experienced similar steps to the ones you posted. Painful though it can be, I think they are the necessary steps of leaving TWI and moving on to a healthier life.