Abigail

Allan, "Regarding Abis' comment about 'gung ho'...If you read one of my earlier posts about my life right now, hopefully you can see that not everyone who is 'gung ho' (one side or the other) is living a crap life !!" The "gung ho" comment wasn't mine, but my husband's - though I understand how you could be confused considering I so frequently forget to log him out before I post. "She is a sweetie, just like I'm sure you are too Abi (on a good day) !!" Thank you Allan, flattery will get you everywhere (well almost - afterall I am happily married ) And yes, most days I am pretty sweet. Likewise, I hope to see more of your "sweet" side. Back to clarification - I think on one of the throwing stones threads, I think someone mentioned that they felt like many times, when they posted something good they remembered from TWI or PFAL, they got jumped on by people telling them how bad it really was. I think that person's feelings are valid, and I suspect more than one person feels that way. I guess that was why I started this thread. I am not saying "everyone" or even "almost everyone" does that. So maybe this thread isn't applicable to very many people. Maybe those it is applicable to don't even want to answer that question, at least in the forums. But I thought I would toss it out there as food for thought, because I was wondering too if more people would feel welcome here if there was a little more room for remembering the good things we got out of TWI too. Yeah, I know that good was at a high price - but maybe we could discuss the price without taking away from the good. Not sure if that communicates well, but its the best I can do for now.

I get that we come to Greasespot for a variety of reasons. Some are looking for old friends, some need validation that they are not alone - that others had similar experiences. Some need to vent, etc. I believe it is good to "tell the story". Venting is part of the healing process. It also helps those who are new to have an opportunity to see the "whole picture" regarding TWI, VPW, LCM and others. I also think it is good to debate the doctrine of TWI. To allow ourselves and others to consider alternate interpretations or understandings of the Bible. To allow ourselves and others to consider alternate religions or even no religion at all. Many people to come to change their views regarding TWI, PFAL, etc. Some completely reject it all, others pick and choose what to keep and what to toss, and others keep the entire doctrine. But I can't help but wonder why some feel the need to continue to hound those who hold on to some or all of PFAL. Why the driving need to try to "force them" to reject all of it. It seems to work for them - there was a time when it worked for us, at least to some degree. Thoughts anyone?

I would add - - there are many people, lobbyists, and special interest groups who have their own agendas which may or may not be harmful to our country. I am not an zionist - in fact I am largely opposed to the notion and I AM a Jew. I guess my goal here is simply to prevent or argue agains "hysteria" where this issue is concerned, because I see hysteria as equally damaging. Just my thoughts and perspective, so you understand where I am coming from. As for the notion that you believe what you do because of VPW - well I really don't care much what your opinion regarding VPW is, because its your opinion and your entitled to it. I am simply trying to discuss this particular issue in a reasonable and rational fashion.

Oldies, You have mixed or confused the issues, I think. With respect to my comments regarding the article you posted. I was simply pointing out that those who are lacking in an agenda (either for or against ) generally stay away from derogatory descriptions and simply state the facts. So, when you, or anyone, post articles that they claim are factual, and the writing style and descriptive words clearly expose an agenda, then I have to question the accuracy of the facts presented. Now, the article you posted seemed to be dealing with the "myth of the 6 million", with an agenda to prove that there is a "Zionist agenda and its promotion may prove to be a destructive idea for the U.S., costly in money and lives" to rephrase your quote a bit. I take issue with the authors presentation of the "facts" with regard to the 6 million. However, I will not disagree that there are people with a Zionist Agenda. In fact, I think I have previously agreed with you on just that notion. However, WHO those people are, I am not sure we necessarily agree upon. How powerful or how much influence those people have, again we may or may not agree upon. And How destructive or costly that agenda may be to the U.S. is also something we may or may not agree upon. But above all of that - and in light of your concern about how this zionist agenda effects our relations in the middle east - as I have said earlier - a brief study of history would support the notion that our problems with the Middle East are not SOLELY or even just PRIMARILY a result of our ongoing support of Israel. Rather, these problems are the result of a number of ongoing factors, not the least of which is the United States continued insistance upon putting governments in place, in middle eastern countries, for as long as those governments support our economic or military agenda - and then removing those governments when they no longer do. Particularly in light of the fact that this continued practice has not only cost American lives, but also the lives of many many many Islamic citizens and several of those govenments have been lead by horrible dictators that slaughtered their own countryman and instituted the islamic regimes we are not fighting.

Oldies, The authors racism and therefore agenda comes through loud and clear in what you posted. I prefer resources who are truly intrested in facts (with nothing to gain via an agenda for or against) as opposed to those who have such an obvious agenda. Here are some excerpts that clearly reveal an agenda (emphasis added by me): "The Holocaust Promotion Lobby is a summarizing construct meant as a shortcut to describe a subset of the human race, most but not all of whom are Jews" "hysterical claims then made by Zionist agitators like Rabbi Stephen Wise " [Have you ever noticed that it generally only the revisionists with an agenda who rever to the "Zionist agitators" - but those without an agenda do not? and again "feverish brains of the Zionists who" Those who are merely interested in presenting facts and have no other agenda, hidden or otherwise, generally avoid the derogatory labels and descriptions.

Oldies, I would be interested in seeing some of these quotes you mention, as well as the documentation that proves they are from genuine witnesses and genuine quotes. I am pretty set in my opinions on this subject - and feel that regardless of whether or not it was 6 million or 2 million, whether it was ethnic cleansing or simply murder, it was insane and wrong. However, it is always good to be informed about all sides of an issue. I do wonder what the "revisionists" feel they stand to gain by proving themselves correct, too.

"Unsettling as it is, I do not know what 'worship' means. How could speaking in tongues be IT?" Don't let it unsettle you too much Safari. I think we all define it in different ways as we continue on our journey. For some it may be some form of prayer, for others a lifestyle. In time, you will find your own way.

Exactly, Bramble! I was my experience with my oldest son that a smack on the butt or the thigh would NOT halt a tantrum but only cause it to get worse! Generally, with him, the best way to halt a tantrum was to hold him tight so he couldn't hurt himself, me, or anyone else, tell him I love him, and wait for it to pass. Ever try to argue with an adult when their emotions are already really high and they are not being particularly reasonable? It doesn't work. So what makes us think that hitting a child who's emotions are already high and who is not being particularly reasonable is going to make them suddently become more reasonable. Besides, kids are rarely reasonable anyway. lol lol

I hope your birthday is a wonderful one, Roy!

Lorna, like much of TWI it may very well depend on when you were in and where you were in. I heard the public teachings, which were similar to what you shared. I also know when I approached leadership because my ex-husband was leaving bruises on my child, I was told "sometimes that is what it takes to get a child's attention".

Yeah, I have talked to my mom, my grandma, and my step-dad. Do I hear them answer? Well I guess that depends how how you define "hear". In the literal, audible sense, never. But I do hear them in my heart. Whether that be some sort of "spritutal connection" or simply my mind telling he what I already know they'd say - - well I lean towards the latter, but leave open the idea that either possibility is valid. And while we're on the topic - you ever see them? I never have. But as a child I used to see the "ghosts" of a dog and a cat we had had, after they died. Imagination or real? Again, can't really say for sure.

I couldn't help but think sending him to prison will just allow him to satisfy his sexual desires for free.

T-Bone, your not from Michigan are you? I remember a limb coordinator going on and on about the "lack of believing" in an individual who was rear ended while sitting at a stop sign. Apparently, it was the opinion of the leadership that had this individual been listening to God, God would have told him to run the stop sign or get out of the way in some other fashion. :blink:

so much info here, wow. Goey, slow down would ya - I'm still trying to get through all the info on cholesterol! lol lol

roflol - that reminds me of many a conversation I have trie to have with my older son. The beauty is I am finally figuring out that as a child - he doesn't have to understand it or like it, so I don't have to argue with him about it. . Socks, Well said and well said.

Well my own experience was that I had a far better relationship with God prior to my TWI days. As a kid and teen I used to have regular talks with God (not that I ever audibly heard Him respond mind you) and I felt secure in the belief that He was listening. By somewhere around the middle of my TWI experience I rarely had talks with God. For one thing, who the heck and the time? And then there was the issue of confidence and "self-love" which was erroded more and more over time so that as the end was nearing, I felt so condemned I couldn't even imagine God was reomotely interested in what I had to say. Beyond that - define realistic But overall I'd say no. God became a tool that we were to use by practicing a ritualized formula - we were to bend God to OUR wills.

hiya Y. Thanks for taking the time to clarify your statement. As I have tried to make clear in another thread, that phrase just happens to be that generally does not trigger "happy feelings" for me. In any case, I hope you'll stick around and get to know us better, and allow us to get to know you better too. Yeah- we can be a "tough crowd" at times, but I think you'll find we can also be pretty cool too.

lol oh Strange one. I'd bet less than half, as he rarely posts. If only I could remember to log off before I post on the upstairs computer - he would be such a happy man then. :D

Rhino, It is my understanding that Paw never really intended for this thread to be about what Sogwap said and/or meant, but that he was simply trying to use some examples to express what he saw as a couple of problems that have cropped up as late. Also, I think you are confusing some things. I suspect the "favorite song" remark with with respect to either Freud or Jung. There is a problem with new posters getting jumped on and accused of being trolls or WayGB. That problem has existed for as far back as I can remember - I too went through that "initiation" when I came here almost 6 years ago. The other problem has to do with how we converse or debate with each other and the "mud slinging" that goes on. I have a different take on that than Paw does, but that doesn't make his less valid. And yes, there is some degree of GSPC, in that it is not uncommon for those who post about good memories of TWI, or something they felt was good about VPW or LCM to get jumped on. I understand the persective of those who do the "jumping", but again that does not make the perspective of those with good things to recall less valid.

And here we are - back to throwing stones. And yes I will admit I threw some. And yes I will admit I have it within me to be a real female dog and I am NOT ashamed of it. In fact, I think at times it is very healthy to get in touch with your inner *itch. But as in all things, there is a balance. Going off on someone new, simply because you are unsure of who they are should be out of bounds. Throwing boulders at someone who clearly and obviously is gentle of nature, and tender of heart should be out of bounds. But I firmly believe that giving it back to someone who is dishing it out is perfectly acceptable. We all have something of value to offer here and no one should be excluded. I have not read every post Allan has ever written and I am sure he too has contributed valuable gems to these forums, despite my distaste for some of his posts and behaviors.

I would add - for those of you who are trying to lose weight or have simply changed your lifestyle in an attempt to be more healthy and have found that you aren't losing weight - you might want to have your thyroid levels checked. I have been making healthier choices in what I eat for some time now. I had also been exercising regularly for quite a time (though I did take a month off). While I did feel much healthier the extra pounds I had hoped to lose never did come off. Well I just got my lab results back from my physical and it turns out I have a thyroid problem. The doctor says the thyroid medication will probably lower my cholesterol levels, give me more energy, and help me to lose weight.

Allan, In case you haven't noticed, I don't really give a rats behind what you call me. The pathetic truth that you can't seem to face is that EVERYONE has gotten your point and NO ONE even NEEDED me to name names ore religious organizations because we have already heard it over and over and over and over and over and over. "Now, can someone please get the thread back to 'throwing stones' ??" Well gee, Allan, the shoes on the other foot now, isn't it!?! Personally, I am not feeling particularly inclined towards going back to throwing stones per se. I'm rather enjoying watching to flip out because you so obviously cannot handle what you have dished out. In another thread you seemd to think it was perfectly acceptable to call someone fat, because you were simply stating a fact. Never mind that the topic of the thread invovled someone revealing something they felt emotionally vulnerable - you didn't give one whit about that then, now did you. So if you can call someone a fattie - why can't I call you an a**hole? Afterall, if the shoe fits? And if it doesn't fit (and I am ALWAYS willing to leave room for that possibility) then why not show some of us some other aspects of your personality?

"I have one pet peeve...people in 'glass house throwing stones' !!" Allan - I wonder how you would feel after 2 or 3 months of someone derailing almost every thread you posted on, simply to make their point of view known about YOUR religious beliefs?

"I'm against crooks, but when I had to cast a vote for a crook or a ex-KKK wizard, I could judge which one was worse, so the damn crook had to be elected." ROFLMAO And yet it is so sad at the same time.

Well Allan, I consider us to be more or less of the same ilk. (except I don't stalk posters from thread to thread to harp on them about their religious beliefs). I am of the opinion that if you can dish it out (and I've seen you dish it out plenty - the fat thread comes to mind immediately, but I am sure I could come up with other examples) then you ought to be able to take it in return. You will find that my tone is entirely different with those who do not dish it out. In fact, I am fairly certain you are the first person in 6 years that I have actually cussed at. I would further point out that in this thread, at least, I did not call you names, I simply pointed out how I perceive you based on your behaviors. I do leave open the possibility that you also have some wonderful characteristics, which I have not yet seen. And once again, you have avoided answering the question. Bramble, I agree with you. Mo has been an example of graciousness and self restraint. I respect and admire her for it. But I am not her and am not feeling particularly inclined towards graciousness or self restraint when it comes to this particular issue. If he wants to derail my thread with his continued stalking (which he had said a couple of weeks ago that he would stop) and if none of the moderators are interested in intervening (and I am not going to notify them because my personal preference is to NOT go there), then fine - let's have it out and be done with it already. So what say you, Allen, are you too chicken to answer the question honestly? What is behind the driving need to make your point?