Abigail

To further clarify . . . . Allan, you said, "Whilst Chas may understand why you have embraced laws and traditions, I don't ! I don't believe that twi can be blamed for someone reducing forgiveness of sins to 'throwing bread to ducks' etc.. " It is very simple, Allan. It is symbolic. I don't believe that if I fail to perform a ritual I am sinning or somehow condemned. Rather, it is the performing of the ritual which reminds me of all that God has done for me. I am sure there are many people who have no need for such rituals and symbolisms - yet even it TWI there was communion, the holy spirit dove, manifestations, etc. For me, I do find some comfort in the symbolisms - I have simply chosen those rituals and symbols that work for me. In some sense, that is really the only difference between Jusaism, Christianity, Pagan relgions, etc. Religions may have different names for their gods, different rituals and symbols, but many of the core morals and beliefs are the same and serve the same purposes. To offer us comfort, hope, and redemption. To give us a frame work of healthy boundaries that serve not only the individual, but a community as well.

Allan, I don't "blame" twi for my religious choices. I was born into a Jewish family, however I was not raised as a practicing Jew at all. I spent my early childhood in a very small town where we were the only Jewish family. By the time I was 6 or 7 I knew far more about Christianity than I did about Judaism, and that remained true until about 2 years ago. In elementary school I attended catechism (sp), mostly because "all the other kids did". Ironically, when we were quized about what we were learning, I did very well in answering the questions. As a teen I checked out a couple of different churches, but none of them held my interest. In my early 20's, I was lost and directionless and my mother was dying - I joined TWI. When I left TWI I attened a Vineyard church for a time and eventually decided I wasn't comfortable there. I then spent a year or two studying a variety of relgions including Native American, Pagan, Buhdaism - almost everything BUT Judaism. That was in large part due to the fact that I too, had a lot of inaccurate information about Judaism and legalism. Then one day, during a seder supper with my extended family it occured to me that I should check out my heritage and I have. In doing so, I have found a religion that fits me well. You may see it as my having fallen from grace - but I see as having come to a far deeper understanding of what Jesus taught than I have ever found anywhere else.

Chas, I would have to echo Bramble, in that at no time in my life was I under MORE laws than in TWI. That being said, I don't feel that I live under laws. Again, it comes down to how strictly one practices - Chassidic, Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist - - there are a lot of differences between them. I see the laws as serving two purposes 1) is health (as in food safety, hygiene, etc.) and 2) ritual. The health part does not need an explanation. The ritual part is symbolic - its purpose is to remind us of something, be it God's love, God's forgiveness, how we are supposed to treat each other, thankfulness, etc. I don't believe God needs me to perform rituals, they are for my benefit not His. Therefore, I feel I have the liberty to choose. For example, I have never slaughtered an animal and offered it in sacrifice. Nor, for that matter, have I ever met anyone else who has. Instead, many Jews will take bread to a river or pond and toss it to the ducks. Each piece of bread is symbolic of a wrong that the individual has commited. By tossing it, we are releasing it - letting it go and accepting God's forgiveness with a desire to do better in the next year. However, if I ever were to practice strictly (which is highly unlikely) I would go the Chassidic route. They are the most strictly observant, but they also do it with the greatest depth of understanding (in my opinion). They do not perform the law for the law's sake, but with a very deep and thorough understanding of what each ritual symbolizes. Another example - Passover with my family. We eat the Seder supper with my extended family. However, again we do not sacrifice a lamb. In fact, we eat turkey. :) We do tell the passover story and observe many of the other Passover traditions, but the point isn't the performing of the law for the law's sake, it is to remind us of something. To remind us not only of what God has freed us from, but what He will continue to free us from.

"Within each of us is a point where all of us meet. And within that point is a place where we are all one simple essence. That is the soul of the moshiach [messiah] within us. If so, the person who we will call the moshiach [messiah] does not need to convince us to follow. He only needs to awaken that sleeping moshiach [messiah] within each of us. And then we will look and say, "I know this tzadik[righteous one]. He is the spark I feel awake within me. That is when we will all be liberated we and all the creation." A Daily Dose of Wisdom from the Rebbe -words and condensation by Tzvi Freeman Tammuz 2, 5766 * June 28, 2006

Thanks, Bramble. I am glad the subject interests you. I think, in part because of our culture, that there is a lot that is misunderstood about Judaism. And like Christianity, there is a large amount of diversity in belief and practice among Jewish people. However, we do have certain things that bond us together as well. For example, when lighting the candles on Shabbot, I am reminded that people all over the world are also lighting their candles - that despite our differences there is a unity and connection among all of us. I believe that bond exists among all people, not just Jews. It is good to be reminded that we all have some things in common, that we are all truly connected in some fashion. It reminds me to take time to see past the differences, disagreements, etc.

Allan, you reveal your own ignorance about Judaism and your inability to read and comprehend what is written in a post. The Alter Rebbe writes in his Siddur: It is proper to say before prayer, "I hereby take upon myself to fulfill the mitzva `Love your fellowman as yourself.'" This means that the precept of Ahavat Yisrael [Leviticus 19:18] is the entry-gate through which man can pass to stand before G-d to Daven. [Pray].

I get what you are saying, Clay. I was taught the same thing in TWI and I am sure other churches teach it as well. However, in this life, the spirit is connected to the flesh, they are intertwined and inseperable until death.

I disagree with Peter Wade on this one. When he drops the pen with his other hand under it, the law of gravity still applies. The pen does not hit the floor simply because he caught it with his other hand. However, gravity STILL caused the pen to fall and therefore still exists. Likewise, when Rom 6:14 is read in context, the idea is that death and sin no longer have "mastery" over Jesus , because he has died and been raised from the dead (verses 8 - 10). Paul then goes on to write that we should also "count" [consider] ourselves dead to sin but alive to God. (verse 11) Notice this is a figure of speach. We are to "count" ourselves dead to sin because we are not literally dead to sin. He then writes that we should not allow sin to reign in our mortal body, nor offer our body to sin but rather offer ourselves to God. Then he states "we are not under the law but under grace" THEN he goes on to refer to us as slaves to righteousness and slaves to God. Ironically, he quotes the very law he claims we are no longer under, to further explain how we are to offer ourselves to God. He also acknowledges that the law is spiritual. Still in the same context, but in chapter 8, Paul writes about those who live according to sinful nature and those who live according to the spirit. He states that the sinful mind is hostile to God and does NOT submit to God's Law. [Thereby implying that God's law does, in fact, still existence]. To a large degree, this entire section is about heart and intent. Performing the law, the tithe, or any ritual begrudingly is not what God desires. God desires a cheerful giver, right? Why would anyone think that cheerful giving would only apply to the giving of money? Does God benefit if I light the shabbot candles on Friday night, or do I? Do I truly benefit if I only light those candles because I HAVE to, or out of fear of negative consequences for failing to light them, and not because I desire to?

Boy all of this is getting tough to keep up with, as I no longer have concordances and stuff. But it is good to study and think this stuff through again - it has been a while. I will work my way backards I think . . . . As Dancing pointed out, what was counted as dung was the "gain" for himself, which he ultimately "lost". When one looks at who Paul was (a pharasse) and the era he lived in, these verses take on a more in depth meaning. Paul was very zealous for the law, but the law for law's sake IS worthless - with or without Jesus as a messiah. It is a trap many fell into then (the legalism) and still fall into today, including Christians. Jesus taught what Hillel taugh, which is what Moses also taught - the golden rule. Paul had lost sight of that and was legalistically performing the law for law's sake, without any heart or understanding behind it. What he gained from that legalistic practice, and ultimately lost, is what was counted dung. People who are unfamiliar with Judaism often have this mind picture of a very legalistic and rigid practice of rules and rituals; kosher home, no electricity from sun down Friday to sun down Saturday, separate dishes for different foods, etc. Certainly there are some who practice that way. But there are many who are not so legalistic and rigid. Paul counted those things as loss for Christ, why? Because Jesus DID teach a better way. He went right back to the heart of the Torah, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Forgive others, because we have all sinned. Heck, even the chapter you quoted from Matthew covers that, "judge not or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged . . . " Now, for the verses you quoted earlier . . . "small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it . . . ." What precedes this section is that if you ask God to give good gifts, He will, and then "do unto others as you would have them do to you, for this sums up the law and the Prophets (again, taught by Moses first and also Hillel). What follows that section is information on false prophets in sheep's clothing. It goes on to say we will know them by their fruit. He then goes on to describe those who propesy, drive out demons, and perform miracles in Jesus' name, and yet Jesus says he never knew them and calls them evil doers. In other words, there are many out there who will claim to be followers of Jesus, who are false prophets and will lead people astray from the narrow road that leads to life. Finally, "no man cometh by the father but by me", well yeah, I agree with that. Jesus taught and lived an example of what is taught in the Torah and Kabbalah. That is not to say one must be Jewish to have access to God. There are many people of many faiths who live their lives very much in accordance with those things, regardless of what religious label they place upon themselves or even if they place none at all.

Allan, I've been doing some research. Regarding your quotes - I will get back to you with further details as I have time, but you will find the context of the "straight is the way" verse to include the "golden rule" as well. So you may find this interesting: "You shall have no other gods before Me," is the essence of all 613 commandments and prohibitions of the Torah. On the other hand, the Talmud tells the famous story of the great sage Hillel, who told a man who asked to be taught the entire Torah while standing on one foot: "What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your fellow. This is the entire Torah--the rest is commentary." and this as well: "Most of what is known of Paul comes from his own writings and from the Acts of the Apostles . . . He was born Saul in the town of Tarsus in what is now southern Turkey, probably in about A.D. 10. Educated in Jerusalem "at the feet of Gamaliel," grandson of the great Jewish sage Hillel, he joined the Pharisees, a party of strict constructionists of the Judaic laws." And Hillel learned it from the Torah - which is where Jesus learned it as well.

George, I think I mostly agree with you. Except if a violent offender is set free and committs a violent crime a second time, he should be put to death. Beyond that, make the rest of the criminals pay restitution. If they can't or won't get a job, put them to work cleaning the parks, public restrooms, whatever. Put them under the supervision of a public official and have them do home repairs/shovel snow/cut grass for the elderly and disabled. Whatever it takes. And, no, I wouldn't be offended or upset if my child saw criminals being punished by having to work. I think the visual deterrent would be beneficial. It would also help them to see there is some justice in this world - a consequence for one's actions. I think most kids are intelligent enough to understand the difference between normal childhood misbehavior and an adult who has committed a crime. I remember driving home one day and there were right to life protestors standing on the street corners holding up signs of aborted fetuses. I'd MUCH rather have my kids see people working on a chain gang, than ever have to see THAT again!

You might find this interesting as well: "The reference is not only to physical light as we know it. This initial statement is rather the mandate of all Creation. The ultimate goal and purpose of creation is that the Divine Light shine throughout the world, transforming everything, even darkness itself, so that it, too, will shine." That, in my opinion, is our purpose here - to allow the divine light within us to grow brighter

Interesting topic, Roy. I did a little research and here are some exerpts from what I found here The precise meaning of the Torah's first word, berei...., is not "in the beginning" (that would be barishonah), but "in the beginning of." The commentaries offer various interpretations . . . Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki, 1040-1105) says to read the Torah's first three verses as a single sentence: "In the beginning of G-d's creation of the heavens and the earth, when the earth was chaotic and void ... G-d said Another approach is that of Seforno (Rabbi Ovadiah ben Yaakov, circa 1470-1550), who interprets berei.... as "In the beginning of time." . . . In other words, while time is itself a creation (a most basic principle of the Jewish faith is that every reality was created by G-d), it is the first and most primary of creations. Indeed, "creation" I will look for more

Exactly Garth. For me it is not a religious or spiritual thing in the sense it was in TWI. As I said previously, it is like meditation, a clearing of the mind of all the thoughts, worries, etc. of the day. Allan, it really makes no difference to me if it makes sense to you or not. There are probably many aspects of what I believe, which may be contradictory if thought through logically. That's okay, I'm still learning and as I learn some of those contradictions will work themselves out, others may not. I am a student, not a master and I hope I never stop learning and studying. As for being born again, I already said earlier that I believe anyone, Christian or not, can be born again. I just define that term a little differently than you do.

Mark - we have two computers, one upstairs and one down. USUALLY I use the computer downstairs and Sushi uses the one up, with one exception, in the morning when I am having my first cup of coffee Chas, Regarding speaking in tongues, yeah I did while in TWI, but whether that was something genuine I have serious serious doubts about. Sometimes I will still do it, yes, but not as a form of prayer. It is more like a form of meditation to clear my mind when I am having trouble sleeping. As for the military aspect as VPW taught, I don't have an answer to that as I have not studied it much. But based on the little I do know and based on my overall understanding of Judaism I would say that some may see it that way and some may not. Personally, I have no solid idea of what will occur when those days come, other than I believe that when all is said and done there will be a form of paradise again.

We have a couple details to work out, but if everything comes together right (and I expect it will), we'll be there. Rascal, can you email me at abigail0900@yahoo.com?

Exactly, Oak. Chas, "You said: "Kabbalah is the mystical side of Judaism." Isn't this what Madonna and many other stars are into these days? I've read up on this a little and it seems to be full of, what I consider, ritual and supersticions. I mean, they even have rules about what days of the week and times of day they can have sex, really. Anyhow, how does this figure in with the cannon of the Old Testament or the Torah? It seems like it wouldn't line up, from what I know from the Book of Leviticus, even. " No, it is not the same thing as what Madonna is into, that would be akin to saying TWI is the same as what the protestants are into. The REAL Kabbalah is not taro cards and palm reading either. A better explanation would be similar to what we were taught in TWI about various books in the O.T., about how one gave the physical explanation and one the spiritual. That is Torah and Kabbalah. Yes, there are many rituals and supersticions that are practiced among various sects of Jews, though I am not familiar with the "rules about sex on certain days of the week", beyond that it is considered a miztvoh (sort of like a good deed) to make love on the sabbath. Anyway, there are also many Jews who do not practice all sorts of rituals and supersticions. As there is great diversity within Christianity, so there is with Judaism. I am not into ritual for ritual's sake, beyond passing down some simple traditions as part of my children's heritage. Generally, in my opinion, a ritual is to remind us of something important, otherwise, what is the point? For example, we light the candles on Friday's, mostly in the winter and not often in the summer, because we are busy doing summer things and the candles just don't seem to blend well with the hot dogs and hamburgers - lol. I enjoy and agree with many of the teachings and philosophies of the Chassidic Jews and I see benefit in many of their rituals and to soem extent, even their strict practice, but I am not now, nor am I likely ever going to be disciplined enough to live my life like that. And that is okay with me. "You wrote: The concept of being "born again", which Jesus taught - well you understand what we were taught about that by TWI. I believe that being "born again" isn't about "confessing jesus", nor is it only for those who are Christians. Being born again is about ascending, it is a spiritual rebirth, a reaching upward to enlightenment. I know I am not explaining it well - I simply do not have the words. But since they don't believe in the Hope, then are you saying that you also no longer believe in the Hope? Because by taking this logic of believing that those who aren't Christian can be "born again", as I understand it - in a life on this earth - you are saying that you do not believe in a resurrection or a Hope of Christ's return.... correct? " Ah, but the Jews do believe in the Hope, just not exactly in the same way as Christians. For the Jews, the Hope is the coming of the Messiah, just as for Christians the Hope is for the coming of the Messiah. The difference is that the Christians believe it will be a "second coming" and the Jews do not. Beyond that, both believe that the world will be restored to a paradise when this event takes place. As for the resurrection part, I am not entirely sure what I believe with regards to that. I guess I am not convinced that when we die we "sleep" til Christ returns. I believe that when we die, it is only our physical body that is dead and not our spiritual one. What happens to our spiritual body - where it goes, I am not certain of. Nor, in truth, do I spend much time dwelling on it. For me, there is enough on my plate in the here and now and regardless of whatever I believe, what happens after I die will be what happens. There simply is no way to know for certain until it occurs. "Just curious - I don't mean to sound judgemental. Please don't assume that's what's going on here - I still subscribe to what I was taught in PFAL, BUT I certainly try to understand and absolutely respect other people's choices. " You aren't coming across at all judgemental. I assume you are simply curious, and I think that is a good thing. I think there is much most people don't know about Judaism, and much that people think they know, which is inaccurate, or at best, only partially right. And no, I don't mind answering any questions. Doing so not only helps remove some of the mystery (which can lead to fear), but it helps me rethink what I believe and why. :)

You guys are good! George, I'm not that quick witted either. I found myself trying to explain the damned shirt only cost $5. Sheesh, what an idiot am I. But I was just too damned shocked to think.

I had the most incredibly rude thing happen to me this morning. I was shopping at Walmart with Sushi and Aaron. Sushi had gone his own way for a time and wasn't with us (I'm sure if he had been what happened wouldn't have occured). A man looked at me and smiled, laughing a little, and approached us. At first I was confused, because his expression and approach were as if he knew me, but I sure as heck couldn't place him. Then, right there in front of my child he made a remark about the size of my breasts! I was wearing a t-shirt with writing on the front and he asked why it was that women with large breasts worse shirts with writing on them, which only further draws attention to them. I was very embarassed to say the least. I don't wear shirts to draw attention - in fact in the past I used to wear very baggy close to try to hide them - but then I end up looking either fat or pregnant. Generally, for my everyday clothing for when I'm not at work, I simply buy what is cheap and comfortable, like a $5 t-shirt. Sushi said if it ever happens again, I should say men with small penises shouldn't look at women with large breasts - lol. What do you do when someone jumps your boundaries? I was totally flabbergast and un-prepared.

Happy Birthday (((Mike)))

Happy Birthday (((ExC)))

Yeah, it is a false dilema, but I understand what you are really trying to ask, Roy. No, it isn't life and death. but YES it is different. I"ve been to other boards, but I share a common bond with almost everyone at this board, whether I like them or not. An experience that may differ from person to person as vastly as night from day. And yet, there is so much commong ground, regardless. And yeah, it is a computer, a machine, sitting on a desk. But ya know, I met my husband on this machine. And I've met some other wonderful people in person, also because of this machine. Behind the machine are real people, with real lives, real hearts, real problems and even real solutions. In fact, I think what we do here is very unique - in that I remember the days before computers and the www. We now have an opportunity to meet and fellowship with people we would never ever have othewise known.

It is Danny, it is. I do a great amount of my studying from a Chassdic website I was fortunate enough to find a year or two ago.

More from here Fallen Sparks by Tzvi Freeman Experts "There is wisdom here, he thought, but wisdom gone mad. There is beauty, magnificent beauty, but she is shattered . . . . . But when he looked in Genesis and in the Holy Zohar, he saw it clearly: Olam HaTohu--"the World of Chaos." . . . . . But the World of Tohu is entirely beyond the finite being. It is a world emanated from the Source of All Worlds before finitude existed, before bounds were set to reality. . . . That the Infinite Light is everywhere is an axiom of the Kabbalah, but the Ari made that light immanent, almost tangible, by declaring it to be held captive within every object, every event, even within evil itself. . . In technical jargon, data without meaning is called "noise". When it happens in our own reality, we call it "evil". Confusion unarrested and running wild.. . . . The sparks are G-dliness . . . . . they are exiled in a world where they are out of context, held captive within their own confusion. Evil is then an artifact, essentially fictitious, arising from the temporary state of disorder. Reorder the world and evil disappears as though it never was. To find infinity within each event of our world takes no more than an objective human mind.

"I thought the Torah was a collection of books and that it was basically like the Old Testament. True? " Correct. In addition to the Torah there is the Talmud which contains Rabbinical discussions and debates regarding the meaning of the verses in the Torah. I find the entire concept of the Talmud interesting and unique (in comparisson to many religions) in that it goes back to the concept that Jews do not necessarily all believe the same thing, nor are the required to. It is the traditions which hold us together more than anything. There is a saying within Judaism, "Every family must set their own table." The idea being that everyone is responsible to study and decide for themselves. Debating amongs each other (in a positive way - not angry and nasty) is also a huge part of that process. derech eretz means knowledge of the natural world and/or society. It can also mean appropriate behavior and good character. "Why is it that they won't write God?" For some it is a sign of reverence and respect. In Judaism, one is not supposed to destroy or deface a holy thing or a name of God. Therefore, many will not write it for concern that the paper may become torn or otherwise defaced. "Abigail says: "Having studied Judaism has given me a far deeper understanding of Jesus and his teachings that you will ever begin to get out of PFAL." Would you please elaborate on this? I would preface this response by being clear that my only real experience (if you can call it real - lol) with Christianity was while in TWI. That could be several threads unto itself, Chas. When one studies Kabbalah, it becomes very clear that Jesus was very well versed in it. Kabbalah is the mystical side of Judaism. In olden times, and even among many orthodox jews today, only men who were very well versed in Torah were allowed to study Kabbalah. The advent of the internet has changed that. Also, the Chassidic Jews are very open about sharing Kabbalah teachings. The first section of John chapter 1 - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God . . . is simply a different wording of the explanation of creation from Kabbalah. In a sense, I believe Jesus was the living Kabbalah - he lived it like no one in documented history, he also taught it. It is the essence of all of his teachings. He was truly the living example of what we too can ascend to, if we desire. But I think one of the big differences I have with Christianity, in this regard, is that Christianity seems to teach we cannot ascend to that level until Christ returns, while I believe it is possible here and now. Here's an example, but I make no promises that it will make sense to you: There are a number of references in the Bible to God having loved Jesus since before the creation of the world. In TWI we were taught this was a figure of speach in reference to God's foreknowledge. I no longer believe that. I believe that all of us were very much alive in a spiritual form before we were given our earthly bodies and is documented in the Bible and the Kabbalah. The concept of being "born again", which Jesus taught - well you understand what we were taught about that by TWI. I believe that being "born again" isn't about "confessing jesus", nor is it only for those who are Christians. Being born again is about ascending, it is a spiritual rebirth, a reaching upward to enlightenment. I know I am not explaining it well - I simply do not have the words. BUT it says in John 3:10 [Jesus speaking to Nicodemus] "You are Israel's teacher", said Jesus, "and you do not understand these things" The context is being born again. Jesus was frustrated that Nicodemus did not already understand the concept of being born again. Why? because it is taught in the Kabbalah. In TWI we were taught that the "son of man" was a reference to Jesus. I believe we are ALL sons of man . wanna start another thread or two? :D