Abigail

Hope you have a wonderful birthday with many many more to come!

I have never taken Momentus, nor have I ever known anyone face to face who has. I say that so you know to take my comments with that understanding. However, after having a discussion with someone who has been through the program and having done a small amount of googling, I think the concept has validity. BUT it is my understanding that the people running the program are not liscensed psychologists and that I do take issue with. While I think there is great potential for healing and growth with the Momentus concept, I also think there is great potential for serious psychological damage because the program is not run by mental health professionals. If I am wrong in my understanding regarding the psychologists, please let me know.

"I think they were perfect - but not like a machine, computer or Superman. They still had the capacity to grow intellectually, emotionally, creatively, etc. " Exactly! And eating the fuit was part of that proceess. I will do some work on the word "perfect", as well as the verse in Ezekiel.

Yeah, but if they were truly perfect, would they have ever rebelled? It seems to me, there was learning that still needed to be done, and therefore they were not quite perfect, else they would not have rebelled.

I found an interesting article about Hagar and rather than starting a new thread, thought I would share a bit of it here. Hagar was the daughter of King Pharoh of Egypt. She was not just some poor, uneducated slave (which is sort of the impression I was always left with). She decided to go with Abraham and Sarah after seeing the miracle by which God saved Sarah from Pharoh. Her name means, "this is the reward". She is one of the rare people who was privileged to meet an angel of God not once, but twice. I was of the impression that Hagar was somehow unworthy in God's sight, because of the way the story is told in the Bible. But in reality, Hagar was very much a Godly woman. Her son Ishmael became a mighty nation (Both Arab and Beduin tribes claim to be descendants of Ishmael). After Sarah died, Hagar was reunited with Abraham and went on to have many more children, who also raised nations known as Hagarites. Those who follow Mohammed also tell about Hagar and in general, agree with the O.T. and oral traditions of the Jews. To them Hagar was the ancestor of their prophet Mohammed, and they attribute all kinds of miracles to her, which have not been passed down in Jewish traditions. Imagine if, instead of fighting over everything we disagree on - we could actually sit down and share some of these various histories with each other? Imagine what we could learn!

I would add - I always had a problem with the fallen nature concept. I get that we are not perfect. But the concept that we are somehow born in sin or born with sin always made me feel unclean. I think there is a difference between being human and therefore unperfected and in being sinful.

I'm glad you enjoyed it T. When my kids are argumentative, it can really irritate me. But then I say - it's in their blood they can't help it. LOL LOL And I am reminded that it is okay to argue with God. God is gonna win the argument, I'm sure - but I can still do it. :D

Interesting idea, Clay. I will have to think on that one. In Kabbalah, the tree of life is the "map of creation". It is a diagram the explains how God and man communicate, how man ascends upward toward God and descends downward toward earth. It also describes attributes of God. I am not explaining it well, unfortunately. It is a concept that for me, is somewhat difficult to understand. Jacob's ladder is the "tree of life".

Can you believe it? That is actually the real, genuine Sushi posting in the doctrinal forums!!!!!!! :D I like the Jewish understanding of the eating of the tree of knowledge on a number of levels. First, because it leaves one with a better impression of God, IMO. I have always had difficulty with the notion that God would punish all of mankind for the actions of two. However, there are natural consequences for our actions that are in a sense passed down to our children, because our actions do affect them. Secondly, in the version I have always understood via Christianity (with which I acknowledge my experience is limited), it sounds as if God was somehow setting man up. Why put the fruit there at all, if He doesn't want it eaten? Additionally, I do not like the way the Christian version (as I understand it) leaves the woman as the ultimate "fall guy". This concept has been used throughout the ages to belittle and subjugate women. It has also been used to down play the extremely important role women have played in religion and God's plan for mankind. In Judaism, Eve is honored as the mother of all things living. She is also honored for having the desire to grow beyond her current existence. Sarah is honored as a prophetess whose visions even superceded Abraham's. In addition, she is honored as the first woman to begin repairing "the curse". [in that, although the fruit was always intended to be eaten, it was not supposed to occur until the Sabbath. Eve's mistake was not that she ate it, but that she ate it too soon]. Rebecca, Rachel, Leah, Miriam, on and on - the women too receive their honor and recognition.

Moddish, Somehow I missed your response in this thread. So, I just wanted to add that I do understand what you did and why. I also wanted to say: Thank you. :)

Thanks, I am glad you are enjoying the pictures. Yeah, Jacob came to the upper peninsula with us. But he started running a 101 fever by Tuesday and I was worried it was sun stroke (even though he wasn't burned). He just missed out on the zoo trip. But I made sure he had fun anyway. He's in the pictures - coming down the slide, on the blanket, at the parade, etc.

There are 613 Mitsvah listed in the Torah. These can be divided into three broad categories. One is as a benefit to man in much the same way we make "rules" for our children to follow. They allow for safety, health, and healthy family boundaries and dynamics. Another is to create a connection with God. And the third is to refine creation by focusing our energy and pursuits into positive things. It is this refining process that heals.

I posted some of the pictures from our vacation in Michigan's upper penninsula and on Mackinaw Island. If you've never been fortunate enough to go, you have no idea what you are missing out on. Some high points and funny points from the trip. . . . The kids and I drove up on our own. It was my first vacation with just the kids and although I missed Sushi something awful, there was also something fun and adventerous about going it alone. The kids behaved very well in the car and we made great time. We managed to cross the bridge in 3 1/2 hours and a couple of hours earlier than planned. I decided to treat the kids to a trip to Mackinaw Island but it started raining as soon as we checked into our motel room. So we settled for some dinner and souvenire shops and headed to the island early the next morning. I love Mackinaw Island and spent a lot of time there as a kid. However, as an adult with two young kids, I was exhausted after 3 hours. Just keeping track of them and making sure one didn't wander off or the other didn't fall behind was a full-time job. But I am glad we went. :) The kids loved watching the "soldiers" fire the old guns and cannons. I loved the history. Later, back on the mainland, we stopped for lunch and prepared to make the last leg of our journey. We arrived at my dad's later than we had planned, but still early enough for a swim. Conditions were perfect for fun in the water - high waves and lots of wind. Unfortunately, the lake is low this year and there were three sandbars, and still the water hadn't gotten deep enough to turn the kids around back towards shore. (In previous years they were still intimidated enough by the size of the lake that they didn't stray far from shore anyway). There is a drop off in the lake, though it is quite a ways out. I watched with increasing anxiety as the kids moved further and further away - far enough away that they couldn't hear my hollaring for them to come back. So I did what any adult in that situation would do and went swimming in my clothes - lol. The good news was that after I reigned the kids back in, I went looking for the drop off and it was far enough out that the water would have gotten too deep for the kids to reach it. The next morning, Jacob woke me up at 6:30 a.m. by opening all of the curtains in the hotel room and asking if it was time to go swimming. So, we made it the perfect swim day. We started with a couple of hours on the Gladstone beach, ate lunch and went for a swim on Pappa's beach, and after dinner went for a swim in the hotel pool. We also went and visited with a woman who used to be my babysitter when I was a kid. (This part DMiller will appreciate). She has a granddaughter now who is 5. Speaking as any well raised Yooper would - little Megan wanted to know why WE talked so funny. Jacob ended up with a bug of some sort, so he missed out on some of the fun. However, Aaron got to go to a really cool zoo, where he got to hold a baby tiger, a baby arctic fox, and a snake. He also got kisses from a fawn!