Abigail

If you can't hear them, you better check on them, or that is exactly what you will end up with.

The reason, Tom, is that when at home we actually SIT on the seat. However, when in public, we do not wish to put our naked behinds down on a seat that has had countless other naked behinds placed on it. Behinds that may have been sweaty, behinds that may have had pimples or bleeding sores (vivid enough for ya? HA). So, we "assume the stance". However, unlike men, we women cannot aim when we assume the stance, which means we may miss a bit and pee on the seat a bit. Which is yet another reason why a women won't sit on the seat - because what if the woman before her assumed the stance and missed? Likewise, you men don't use toilet paper when you pee, so there is usually plenty of TP in the men's dispenser. However, it is impossible to clean up a miss if there isn't any toilet paper in the dispenser to clean it up with. Finally, should you attempt to clean up the pee with that cheap, non absorbent stuff they put in public restrooms, odds are your fingers are going to end up wet. And what if that miss wasn't yours but actually belonged to the person who was in there before you?????????? :( :blink:

Paul was a Pharasee. Like Jesus, he was well versed in not only the Torah, but the oral traditions and Kabbalah as well. It is quite likely most of the other apostles were not so well versed, being fishermen, etc. They certainly knew the laws of the Torah, but very likely they knew little beyond that. Similarly, your early Christian writers, who were gentiles before conversion, or those who did not come from Jewish backgrounds, or those whose family had converted so long ago that the Jewish teachings were forgotten would not have been educated in the oral traditions and kabbalah. The mystical writings of Paul echo the mystical teachings of the Jewish oral traditions and Kabbalah, as do many of the teachings of Jesus. Perhaps that is why you mainly only find the mystical side of Christianity within Paul's writings.

The "God won't spit in your direction" line by LCM was on the teaching tape that Wayfer Not referred to. Somewhere in that same time frame it was also decided that people who weren't abundantly sharing could not participate in classes - even the foundational one. I got involved in TWI in 1991. I don't remember it being directly taught, but I do remember it being clearly understood that we were supposed to give something above the tithe. I think the 15% number came out around the same time as LCM's tape. Anything over 10% was considered abundantly sharing, but we were instructed that to get the real blessings from God we had to plurality give - which meant giving everything above and beyond your absolute need. In other words - do you really need to save for retirement? Do you really need to buy new clothing or could you go out and buy stuff from Sally? Do you really need that candy bar or pack of gum? If you were still considering those things as needs, then you weren't plurality giving. IMO, none of it is biblical according to the new testament. The NT verses TWI used to back up their crap were taken out of context and twisted (gee - how surprising!). In Acts when Paul collected money, it was because there was a famine in Jerusalem and they were trying to help those who were starving. He did NOT keep money for himself. Paul EARNED his money be WORKING an HONEST JOB.

Scored a 36.

Yes, Sushi! Comparative religion - interfaith dialogue. :) Here's more . . . "As the Vilna Gaon points out, life is about "shevirat hamiddot," the breaking of traits, as in negative character traits, which are obviously a function of the body, but not the soul. We come into this world with strengths and weaknesses, with the goal of using the former to rectify the latter. We are born to be "craftsmen," in order for us to bring perfection to the kli - the physical vessel with which we have been born into so that it can access the light that is already there." - by Rabbi Pinchas Winston and Torah.org. and "Thus, the Leshem explains: He [G-d] made a separation in the illumination of the Light that it should not flow or give off light except for the righteous, whose actions draw it down and make it shine. However, the actions of the evil block it, leaving them in darkness, and this itself was the hiding of the Light. (Sha'arei Leshem, p. 133) Thus, the light IS there, but it just won't enter them; their bodies simply block it, being instruments of evil." But even then, there remains that sanctuary within for the Shechinah and the light can flow through again, if one desires.

It also leaves one wondering why they have to spend so much money on defense attorneys

Clay, how interesting that I received in my email today, a Torah lesson dealing with desolation and destruction that you may find interesting in light of what you quoted from Isaiah. Here is what I got from it: Within every one of us there is a core sanctuary for the Sechina (God's dwelling place). It is a sacred place, and remains so even when we exile ourselves from God. All desloation and destruction is limited to the physical ... buildings, walls. In a spiritual sense, it is limited to that aspect of us that is not a part of the sacred place, the parts of us that are the "satan" side of our dual nature. But that sanctuary always remains and is always holy.

Clay, I think it would be hard for you to offend me. Agree, disagree, study the same things or different, we are all on the same journey regardless of the path we chose. Carl, I toss stuff out sometimes to offer a different perspective. Beyond that, see above - different path, same journey. Peace.

Back from a wonderful weekend of camping. :) Kathy, I don't think anything is wrong with how you said it. We are trying to put into words, and therefore concrete terms, that which is not concrete - so we use what works for us. "Seems to me the serpent and the ground is what was cursed. And I don't think this is a separate entity-Satan-from ourselves. Just as the ground is not that which is under our feet but our minds. Therefore we look to the spirit for blessings." What is cursed depends on one's perspective and the topic I guess. The idea that initially started this thread, (though we have strayed away from it, which is fine) was a woman's subjection to man. The idea being that it wasn't God's original plan for woman to be in subjection, but that was one of the consequences of Eve's actions. Then Sarah was the first woman to begin to undo that. Beyond that, I agree about Satan not being a separate entity from ourselves and so would much of Judaism. Goes back to duality, as does your last post regarding the carnal mind and the spiritual mind. Okay, I think I will have to chew the rest a bit, Clay.

Clay, I don't know if you are still following the thread on "Eve and healing the world", but in reading these verses, it seems to me that the Christian Christ is the equivalent of the Jewish Shechina.

kathy, it is not about attributing evil to God, but about God giving us the tools and opportunity to gain wisdom. Here's another one I came across this morning in my email: "When through repentance you extricate yourself from your own spiritual exile, you will thereby liberate "your G-d" - the Shechinah, the source of your soul - from His exile too]." -Iggeret Hateshuvah I found this interesting on a couple of levels. One has to do with a somewhat different or explanation of, or another attribute of Shechina. The context of this has to do with "sin" and "repentance". I prefer not to define those terms, because they can mean such vastly different things to different people, and so what is sin to one, may not be to another. However, the idea is that when you sin, you draw down Shechinah and entrap it/exhile it from God. But when you repent you release the Shechinah from it's exhile.

Which part of Rom 5 are you referring to? Or do you mean the whole thing? I no longer consider myself Christian. But I still believe there is much to be learned from the NT. I'll pick at Rom 5 a bit. . . . The first part talks about being justified by faith through our Lord Jesus Christ. Well, Jesus taught as Moses did - that ALL of the law is accomplished via treating others as you would have them treat you. If we believe as Jesus believed - then we are of the same faith. If we rejoice in hope and in suffering, because suffering produces perserverance and character and ultimately again hope - well there is your duality again, no? And our purpose in these bodies - to learn and build character. It then goes on to say that sin entered the world by one man and death through sin, and that death reigned. There is an implication that death reigns no more, but we still die, yes? So obviously this cannot be literal in the sense that we understand it today. How did "death reign" when Paul was writing those words? Now - think about who is being spoken to - what were their beliefs? The Sanheidren did not believe in eternal life, though the Pharasees did. However, the Pharasees were very legalistic and sin conscious. Could Paul have simply been using a figure of speech specific to their belief system to show them something? What? Perhaps exactly what Jesus taught - that the laws are for man. Their purposes was to teach them health, a societal system, and to teach them about God. And because the laws are for man, man has some discretion (grace) in how they are applied and utilized. Think about it, did Jesus fulfill the laws? I seem to recall a time or two when he violated them. However, he violated them for just cause.

Nice to meet you Carl. One theory that is postulated through the Kaballah is that in the beginning God encompassed the entire universe - everything was God and there was nothing else, as God is the being without end. In order to create physical space as we know it, God had to retract himself/conceal some of himsel and leave an "empty space"or vaccuum. That empty space was formles and empty. . . and dark (because God is light and he had retracted himself and left an empty space). God then hovered over the face of the deep and allowed some light back in and separated the light from the darkness. If this interests you (And Todd if you are reading I think you will definitely enjoy this) you can read more here

Repair ------ Deeper than the wisdom to create is the wisdom to repair. And so, G-d built failure into His world, so that He could give Man His deepest wisdom. To repair. A Daily Dose of Wisdom from the Rebbe -words and condensation by Tzvi Freeman Tammuz 17, 5766 * July 13, 2006

Todd, it is good to see you again! I read the thread you linked to, but it requires more thought than my brain is capable of at the moment. Clay, interesting reference. I did a little bit of research on Rev 12, but haven't come up with much yet. What I do know is that in Judaism the sun represents God and the moon is very important in that it is the basis for the calendar. I also found a references that said John is purported to have been a very knowledgeable scholar of the Kabbalah. T-Bone, I am glad you are enjoying Chabad. I have learned a great deal from that website. Kathy, The credit for "noticing the difference" goes to the Chabad website. It was there I came across the concept. I simply shortened the explanation and put it into my own words. "But it seems there should have been more of Sarah than simply her part of the believing parenting of old age." Ah - but there is a LOT more to Sarah than that. "believing to be a parent" is TWI doctrine. Sarah is said to have been more spiritually attuned than Abraham, she was a prophetess. She faced Pharoh and returned unscathed. The Midrash and oral traditions teach that a "cloud of glory" hovered over Sarah's tent for as long as she lived. It was Sarah who convinced Abraham to marry Hagar (I previously posted about the import of Hagar and Ishmael) and it was Sarah who understood when it was time to send Hagar and Ishmael away. It was Sarah who took the first steps to "undo the curse of subjection" - God told Abraham "Whatever Sarah says to you, do"

(((Kathy)))) you are sweet. I am, unfortunetly going to be busy and gone a bit for the next five days or so. I have a new brochure to design of the boy's school and our family is going camping this weekend. However, I too am enjoying this thread and will continue to contribute as I can - bearing in mind I will not have access to a computer over the weekend.

"My opinion about what the afterlife is like is far from settled, but I think that we'll all be surprised to some extent." On that I agree wholeheartedly! The Jewish sages interpret the book of Job radically differently than TWI. In Job, the "adversary" is not "a devil" but one of God's angels. This angel's job is to report to God on Rosh Hashannah (sp) all of the evil that man has committed in the past year. There is likewise, a counterpart. An angel who stands before God and reports all of the good that man has committed. Now, I do not believe that this is necessarily what literally takes place, but I think there is a lesson to be learned. The idea being that despite our shortcomings, we should try to keep the balances weighted in favor of the good we do. Beyond that, I believe God looks on the heart and understands that the good we would do, we do not and the evil which we would not do, we do. Finally, I think we are on this earth to learn and mature and a large part of that process is making mistakes.

I have to say, I don't see how genetics makes one bit of difference in all of this. Regardless of whether the Ashkenazi Jews are genetically linked to the Jews of O.T. times or not, Hitler BELIEVED these people were Jews and committed genocide against them. In terms of the right here and now - I am Jewish, whether or not you can genetically link me to the Jews of O.T. times. I am Jewish not because of DNA alone (in fact that really bears no impact on me at all). I am Jewish because of what I believe religiously and because of the cultural background of my family. While there may be some Jews who hold fast to the DNA aspect of things and are not practicing religiously. I would bet that the majority of people who consider themselves Jewish (and who really care whether or not others view them as Jews), do so based on cultural and religious beliefs and not DNA. In fact, it is possible to convert to Judaism, regardeless of your genetics. To me, arguing about the genetic structure of today's Jews is akin to arguing about whether the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was an apple or a fig. It really bears no import, and is simply a diversion from the real point.

Okay - I have a few things I want to add - I hope I can do so in an organized fashion. :) I'm going to start with a single Hebrew word - Sechina. I believe the literal translation is akin to "the Divine presence that dwells within". It is often described as a separate spiritual entity - but I believe this is done simply to help us undertand certain parables, whereas in reality, it is simply descriptive of one aspect or characteristic of God. Sechina is often thought of in the feminine, as it was Eve who also represented God's femine side (let us create man in our image - male and female created he them). Biblically, it is the "cloud" over the tent as the Jews wandered the desert. It is thought that what drove Eve to eat of the Tree was the desire to immerse herself in all the beauty of the world - her desire to experience everything. This is attributed to the Shechina within her and the Shechina's desire to permeate all. However, because Eve ate the fruit at the improper time, she imprisoned the Sechina and made her subject to the male aspect and man. It was Sarah who first began the process of freeing the Sechina. Abraham himself could not do it, in that he is male - but he empowered Sarah to do it when he sent her to Pharoah. Sarah went to Pharoh (descended into the lair of the snake) and resisted the lure. She decended into darkness, but maintained her connection to the light (Abraham). It is said that Abraham's hospitality was to all men - that he welcomed all. Sarah, on the other hand was more discerning. She only desired to welcome those she perceived as Godly. So it is said that it is Abraham that draws people to the light and it is Sarah that cleanses and heals them. Rebecca and Isaac is said to be the parable of the uniting of heaven and earth. Rachel and Leah tell the story of the Shechina also. Rachel is the Shechina as it descends to take care of her children as they wander in Exile. Leah is lofty, she rises above and is what we stive for but still have not ascended to. Miriam is the guardian of the promise which will bring us from the darkness of exile to the great light of freedom and on and on it goes. I leave you with This Article for your reading enjoyment. :)

"In thinking about the forbidden fruit of Genesis 3, I sometimes wonder - was it going to be a permanent prohibition to eat it?" Judaism teaches that the fruit was intended to be eaten - but that Adam and Eve were supposed to wait til the Sabbath to eat it. More later . . . .

Clay, you might find This article interesting. Here are a couple of excerpts: "the narratives of the Torah are descriptions of the interrelation between Divine attributes in the spiritual realms. Nevertheless, since material existence is an outgrowth of spiritual existence, whatever happens in the spiritual realms is reflected in this world. Thus, every narrative in the Torah is a record of an actual event, but that event represents far more than what transpires in the material world. " "The prison in which Yosef is held refers to the body, and to material existence as a whole. These tend to confine the infinite power of the soul and deny it expression. Although G-d gave man His Torah, His will and wisdom, the Torah is also affected by the limits of material existence, and its G-dly source is not always evident." If you read the article in its entirety, please understand while I agree with some of its points, I also take offense at references indicating that the Jewish people are somehow called out separate and above non Jews. The "us v them" notion seems to permeate almost all religions to the point where for a time I gave up entirely on trying to learn more about God. I have since come back to studying and simply made up my mind I will have to take the good I can get out of it, and reject those things which offend me.

Here's what I find disturbing: "As long as man is aware of opposites, he cannot be with God, because god is aware of the whole. It is only by becoming aware of the whole, seeing that all things are the same, that we can be with God and eat from the tree of life. That is the message that is lost." I guess it depends on what is meant by "all things are the same". Because I think opposites do exist and that God created them. Likewise I think there is good and there is evil. For example - how can the murder of an innocent person be seen as "part of the same"? I see that line of thinking as full of potential dangers. It is the same type of thinking that allowed leaders in TWI to committ adultery - "all things are lawful" if you are spiritual enough. Beyond that, I agree there are parables within Genesis, as well as the rest of the Bible. Layers upon layers of learning and understanding there.

Judaism teaches that man has a dual nature. This was given to us, at least in part, to promulgate our survival. If we didn't have some selfish wants and desires we would not survive - we would not "take" what we need for our own physical survival. Man also has God's nature, to give, to love, to nourish, etc. - this is our divine aspect. They key, is to keep the two in balance. If the "selfish"nature is allowed too much reign, we become "unrighteous" in our actions (which is what occred with the King of Tyre in Ezekial 28:15 who became arrogant and greedy). However, if we allow the divine nature to take too much reign, we also err in that we will neglect our basic needs for survival. Or, as Sushi puts it, "you shouldn't be so spiritually minded that you are no earthly good." Most Jews do not believe in "Satan" or the "devil" as some spiritual entity that is fighting for dominion. Rather, they see it as a figure of speech referring to the internal war we wage at times, in finding that balance between our selfish nature and our divine one. In TWI, one of the verses that we were taught regarding the Devil comes from Isaiah 14 "How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations. And you said to yourself, 'To the heavens will I ascend, above God's stars will I raise my throne, and I will sit on the mount of the assembly, in the farthest end of the north." Rashi's commentary indicates that Lucifer is a reference to the planet venus, but that ultimately this section is a figure of speech referring to the ruler of Babylon. Again, similar to the king of Tyre. Likewise, according o Rashi's commentary, In Job, "The Adversary" is not an evil spirit being standing in opposition to God, but rather a spirit being who does God's will by observing man and informing God of the evil man does. In fact, in that first section where the angels and the adversary come to stand before God, the context is such that the angels are likewise there to contend with God regarding judgment of man's deeds. It is understood that this all took place on the day of Rosh Hashanah. This is the day when man's sins from the previous year are weighed and it is decided if his name will be written in the Book of Life for another year or not. Now, I am not saying I agree with all of the above. I have to think on those things before I could come to a conclusion. I simply share them to offer another perspective. Personally, I think there are layers of meanings within these scriptures and I do not pretend to see them all.

I believe it is both, a parable and a history. I will do some research and share more - though I have also committed to research and sharing in another thread as well. So, please be patient with me.