Abigail

Some problems and some mental illnesses have nothing to do with upbringing, they are simply biological, genetic. My brother, sister, and I were all raised by the same parents. We are fairly close in age. That my sister ended up with bi-polar disorder is not a result of upbringing. That my sister needs to take medication, is not a result of weakness. In fact, one of the difficulties that often occurs with people who are bipolar is getting them to stay on their medication, so one might say my sister is quite strong for having done so, even though it means she gives up the "highs" in order to be rid of the lows. "I also believe without a strong faith in God and His risen Son Jesus christ it may be impossible." Its a beautiful country we live in, with the freedom to believe as we choose. Perhaps there is something to really thank God for. My dad would say a need to believe in an invisible being is a sign of weakness. So there ya have it, another way to put someone else down in order to make yourself feel good. Its not hard to do, really, patting yourself on the back while looking down your nose at someone else. I might say THAT is a sign of weakness, or a sign that someone has their own issues regarding self worth.

I was thinking the same thing, Safari. Maybe she knew her husband cheater on her, but did she know he forced women or drugged them? Maybe she thought the women he was with, were with him willingly - from what I have read it sounds like some of them were, anyway.

Pond you are painting with broad strokes. SOME doctors will throw medications at a problem without finding all the facts first. SOME do not. The first psychiatrist I took my son to wanted to put him on medications after spending 20 minutes with him. I walked out and never went back. The doctor he sees now got to know him and his history first. Got to know me, looked over information provided by teachers and other professionals who had worked with my son and observed my son. He is a doctor I will stick with. You will find the same problem exists among physicians who focus on the body and not the mind. So, you have to pick your doctor carefully. Also, if you withhold information from your doctor, you cannot blame your doctor for misdiagnosing or mistreating an illness, physical or mental. Likewise, SOME mood disorders may not be chemical but SOME ARE. Bipolar disorder, for example. That is a mood disorder. It is chemical and it is often hereditary. Counseling is an important part of treating Bipolar disorder, but counseling alone is not enough. Because we are still in the early stages of understadning this disorder, as well as most mood disorders, and because we are still in the early stages of understanding the medications used to treat them, there is trial and error involved. But the same can be said of medications that treat physical illnesses as well. I can't take Penicilan, for example. I'm allergic to it. But it was only by trial that we discovered that. Likewise, I do not metabolise over the counter cold medicines very well, taking them often leaves me feeling spaced out for at least a good 24 hours - other people take it and are just fine. One of my son's cannot take sulfa based medications, again it was only by trial that we discovered that. Heck, even what foods an individual can tolerate can come down to trial and error. Some people cannot tolerate milk, some are allergic to peanuts. How do we discover that? Trial and error.

I do not know if there are blood tests to measure chemical imbalances yet, though I would bet someone somewhere is working on it. However, I do know that they can measure differences in brain function with some disorders. "I applaud that and would never want to go back to the ideas and means that had to be used before these drugs where available. I just think today drs. are willing to give out some very serious drugs to save their own risk in practicing medicine. i think they market drugs on the radio and tv and media and it is gettying dangerous to trust all we hear without education." I think those two statements give a more balanced view of what you are trying to say, than some of your prior statements do. I agree there are doctors willing to toss out drugs without investigating things further. I have experienced that with my son as well and I have turned down certain medications in lieu of more homeopathic remedies. I have also turned down certain medications because I felt the risks or side effects were worse than then benefits. It does behoove us to educate ourselves on these issues.

Believe it is a chemical imbalance or not, studies show medication does help. For some people, therapy and counseling may not even be possible until they have some measure of relief via medication. For some people, the only way they can even begin to understand the difference between what is going on inside them and what it feels like to feel "normal" cannot even begin to occur until they have been on medication. I see this with my older son, who could not even sit at a table for a 10 minute meal until after he had been put on medication. NOW he understands what it feels like to be still, inside and out. Now he can sit through an entire meal without medication. It has taken work for him to get this far, work that probably couldn't have even begun to occur without first medication. Sure, I could have used the TWI method of trying to beat him into submission - but what would the cost have been to him emtionally then? I think that method would have had far more long lasting and devestating effects. Sure, I could have told the school - figure out how to deal with it, I"m not medicating him. But I know that he would not be functioning educationally at near the level he is currently functioning. In fact, prior to being given medication, he could barely read because he could not focus on the page. Once being given medication, his reading took off. Now he can read without the medication. Prior to medication, he would often end up on the floor under his desk, he could not sit in a chair and do school work. Sure, the teacher could have sent him to the office or otherwise punished him. What would the profit of that had been, if he truly could not help himself? He didn't even realize his behavior was inappropriate or that other kids were not doing the same thing. Punishment would only have served to degrade his sense of self worth, it would have made him feel stupid, ashamed. With medication and with counseling and with consequences good and bad, he is learning how to function in our society, he is excelling in school, and he values himself. Some mental illnesses are caused by a chemical imbalance first and foremost. I suspect with others, emotional trauma and stress CAUSE chemical changes within the body. and cause mental illness. There is NO SHAME in needing medication. Some think we have become a society dependent upon drugs to solve problems. I don't see it that. Perhaps more medications are being used because we have a better understanding of mental illnesses and how to treat them. Perhaps now we are simply offering a higher quality of life to people who otherwise might be needlessly suffering.

LOL Shell. Anyone with children can recognize God's sense of humor. Otherwise, why would He have given children twice the energy that their parents have????

Maybe the real sum of this thread is that in the end, we are all human. We are all capable of doing good, we are all capable of living in denial, even at the cost of others. Think about it, maybe the denial we once lived in didn't cause as great a harm as the denial of some who were "in the know", but at the very least we hurt our selves, and quite likely a family member or two. I remember sitting in silence as my best friend got publicly reemed and humilated. I remember turning my back on her after she left TWI. It broke my heart to do it, but at the time I felt it was the only thing I could do - that to do otherwise would hurt my family. I remember being in her shoes not too long before that, when I was on the receiving end and my friends sat quietly by due to their own fears or denials. Okay, sure, it is not on the same scale as what VPW did to innocent young girls - not even close. But my living situation wasn't even close that of Mrs. W's either. I cannot say for a certainty what I would have done in her position. I know what I would like to THINK I would do, but that is not the same as actually being there, walking in her shoes.

I know what a wonderful feeling it is to finally get the car of your dreams. Well, okay I don't know, but I hope I will know some day.

"Abi, I totally get that being a cyber friend is all you can do right now. Sheesh, like you said, with your plate so full you have hardly enough time and energy and stuff for low-maintenance friends! I absolutely respect that you just came out and said so, too. It wasn't like a closer friendship would be possible given our long distance from each other, anyway. " ((((CW))))) I would add for clarification, it isn't about how I feel about the person. I used my brother as an example earlier. I love my brother. I would love to have a wonderful sibling relationship with him, akin to the one I have with my sister. I simply can't do it right now, at this place in my life. I can't even remember the last time I just went out to have fun with friends - well yeah I do, it was in mid July on a camping trip with Sushi and the kids. But even then I spent a good deal of my "visiting time" with my friend being distracted by the various needs of the kids. Last time I went somewhere besides shopping without kids? No clue, been too long. But in anycase, CW, I think you are wonderful, open, and strong. I don't know if one ever "beats" a mental illness in the same way one can heal from a broken bone. But I do know one can live a pretty darned decent and good life with one when they are as strong and open as you are.

Kathy, whatever insult you think you tossed my way I either completely missed or have totally forgotten. My tag line is something that comes from a blog written by an old highschool friend's husband. I thought it was appropriate for some of the things that go on here at the cafe, but it most certainly was NEVER directed at you or any other individual.

"Then again, my therapist has told me that the friends I need are those who will not try to fix me themselves or expect things out of me that I cannot give...or be hurt, insulted, or in any other way feel personally affronted when my illness acts up. In other words, I need to make friends who grasp what it is to be friends with someone like me." Exactly, a friend is someone who will accept you for exactly who you are at this very moment. As for being high demand . . . for me, I would have difficulty maintaining a friendship with someone who is high demand. NOT because being high demand is such an awful thing, but because my current life style doesn't have room for that. In other words, its not about the high demand person, it is about me, my life. With a husband, two young boys, a 30 hours work week and a Board committment I barely even have time for low demand friendships. So please, keep that in mind if someone decides a relationship with you is too much - it may have very little to do with who you are and may simply be a matter of what is going on in their own life. I should clarify, CW that I do consider you a cyber friend, but the context of this response was in regards to a face to face friend who I might see on a regular basis.

I guess I view mental illness about the same as I view any illness. You do what you can to get well and stay well, even if it means medications and doctors for the rest of your life. It most certainly is not your fault that you have a mental illness. How far will I allow someone with a mental illness into my life? Depends on the individual. I have a sister who is bipolar and there were times, before she was diagnosed, when I thought I would very much have to limit the amount of time I spent with her. However, she has been on medication for 10 years now and is doing very well. She works, raises on son, etc. and is probably my best friend after my husband. I have a brother, who I also love very much, who I believe is mentally ill but undiagnosed. Because I am raising two boys, and because my brother can become quite emotional and needy at times, and for reasons which I will not post, I do limit my contact with him. I still see him, just not as much as my sister. But then again, there are people who aren't mentally ill, who I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time with too.

I agree with you Oakspear. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing though. What makes it bad is our often refusal to allow people to find their own path with God.

What adorable attack puppies you have there!

In general, particularly in our culture today, I would say silence regarding what occured in TWI makes one guilty of at least being a part of the cover up. However, Ms. W. was not raised in, nor did she live in the culture we have today. Ms. W. comes from an era were women were silent, where women were in a very real sense secondhand citizens. I strongly suspect speaking up was probably not much of an option for her - perhaps a very very strong woman could have, but who would have listened? How many would have dismissed her, believed whatever stories Dr. W. and others in the ministry made up about her? How would she have taken care of her children? If I could fault her for anything, it would only be for not being strong enough to take on the fight, and quite honestly, given her circumstances I don't think I can fault her for even that. For Donna M. the same is not so. She was raised in a different era and lives in a different era. She had many options in front of her.

I try to see everything in both terms. I am not always successful at this, but it is what I try to do. Beyond that, I try to see everything from the perspective of what can I learn from this, what is the lesson, what does it tell me about life.

I thought this might be fitting for this thread: "the vital force of each thing, from which comes its personality, its sense of pain and pleasure, its growth and life -- that itself is G-d. Not that this is all of G-d. It is less than a glimmer of G-d, because He is entirely beyond all such descriptions. But that life force is G-d as He is found within each creature He has made." - A Daily Dose of Wisdom from the Rebbe -words and condensation by Tzvi Freeman Menachem Av 28, 5766 * August 22, 2006

You guys are really great. For the most part, for me, the past is the past. I am not proud of all of the things I have done, but I can't go back and undo them either. Nor in all honesty, do I think I was ultimately that important of a figure in the lives of even those I hurt back then. It was all too long ago and we were all very young. Too stupid to even realize how stupid we were, me most of all. The reason I put all of this out here is because Z's version of my past is filled with lies and half truths. The truth is ugly enough on its own. Z would like to make it sound even uglier still, and I imagine has in a number of posts that the moderators caught before they ever made it to the board. I know a portion of the lies and half truths he/she told, because Z wanted to make sure I knew that someone was reading what he/she said, so he/she cc'd me in on a portion of the discourse. His/her goal, of course, was to humiliate and shame me in front of my friends. Perhaps he/she thought I would run and hide, I don't know, but he/she was mistaken. There may be some here who would judge me harshly, but I knew those who were my friends would not - and you haven't. So yes, Cynic, Z is registered to post here, but I will not reveal who he/she is. The moderators are aware of the situation, and I will leave it to them.

I went to Shabbat services tonight. The Rabbi talked a bit about Solomon and how wise he was. Then he said he did something very unwise - he married 700 women and took 300 more as his concubines. He said it exhausted him just thinking about it! LOL

I hear ya dancing. I am not finacially at a place where I could tithe either. I give what I can when I can, usually to the homeless and that's about it.

I have sort of stayed away from studying this topic in Judaism, because of TWI's misuse of it. Not that I am stingy, but I have a tough time giving money to an organized religion who may or may not put it to good use. My preference is to give where I believe the money is used well. However, this morning I "bit the bullet" and started reading on this topic. What a fresh change of pace after what TWI did to this topic. You can read the entire article HERE if you'd like. I'll just post a couple of excerpts: "Traditional Jews give at least ten percent of their income to charity. . . . . . .Those who are dependent on public assistance or living on the edge of subsistence may give less; no person should give so much that he would become a public burden . . . . The obligation to perform tzedakah can be fulfilled by giving money to the poor, to health care institutions, to synagogues or to educational institutions. It can also be fulfilled by supporting your children beyond the age when you are legally required to, or supporting your parents in their old age. The obligation includes giving to both Jews and gentiles; contrary to popular belief, Jews do not just "take care of our own . . . .. . "

Actually, the author does touch on that in a number of places throughout the book. I guess I didn't bring them up because it wasn't really new information to me.

All I can say is, thank you.

You can get gas for $2.79???? where the heck do you live? I'm getting a great deal if I get it for anything under $3.00 and that IS self serve! sorry, yeah I'd be ticked off too

There is a person, who I will call Z. Z has gone out of his/her way to try to humilate me for a number of years now. Z has sent emails to my family, their friends, and even my father's co-workers, trying to reveal all of my past sins. It has come to my attention that Z has now been trying to reveal my past sins here at the cafe as well. The moderators have been awesome, but this must be a lot of unnecessary work for them. I have decided that perhaps the best way to handle this situation is just to put it all out there in the open, or as much of it as I can, without getting myself into hot water with the moderators. While I am not proud of everything from my past, I no longer live in constant shame of it either - which is what Z would like for me to do. When I was just out of high school, I very foolishly married a boy I barely knew. I was young and terrified of facing the world. I didn't think I was smart enough for college and I desperately wanted out from under my mother's roof. So, I ran off and married a boy who was in the army, that I barely knew. He was the most sophisticated and worldly boy I had ever met and I was in absolute awe of him. It was a disaster, to say the least. But to keep it short I won't bore you with many of the details. It was a shortlived marriage, less than 6 months. I was miserable and my self-esteem dropped even further. He often told me I was fat and that I was crazy. That I was "lucky" he was kind enough to marry me. Now the latter may sound absolutely stupid, but you have to understand that growing up, my mom used to tell me I was "damaged goods" and no man would ever want to marry me. Anyway, I ended up running off to another state with another boy. Also, stupid. The other boy and I actually lived together for about a year and a half before we got married (another marriage that lasted less than a year). We may have had a half way decent chance of it too - we were young, but we got along pretty well. But we moved back to our home state and that was the beginning of the end. At first it was okay, I joined a healthclub and was exercising and feeling good about myself, I was working, and I was going to a community college and getting good grades. But then he joined a band. The band practiced in our livingroom, so almost every night there was a party. Lots of alcohol, a decent amount of drugs too. For a while, I stayed out of it and just kept doing my own thing. But eventually, I joined in too. Pretty soon I dropped out of school and I was outdrinking most of the guys. I did a lot of things in those days I am not proud of, including cheating on my husband. I was an absolute walking nightmare. Naturally, it wasn't long before I was caught and the marriage was over. It was shortly after that (a couple of months) that I joined up with TWI. My mom was sick and dying, my life was an absolute mess, I was filled with guilt and shame, and I wanted to turn my life around. I eventually married again, to someone who was also in TWI. To the person who brought me to TWI. We were together for about 10 years - which is about how long I was in TWI. I won't go into the details of what did and did not occur. Sufficite to say that I left TWI before him and I was faithful to him the entire time we were together. I would also add I have been "clean and sober" since joining and leaving TWI and that alone has made a huge difference in my life. Now, Z would like to make it sound like the stuff that happened (almost 20 years ago now) is something that occured more recently than that. Z would like to make it sound like it is stuff that is still occuring. However, that is not the case. Z would like to take my past and beat me over the head with it until there is nothing left of me but a little ball of shame. However, while I am not proud of my past, I am very proud of my present and I will not let my past stop me from having a future.