Abigail

I'm working and watching! HA. I have the window open and shrunk so I can see it while I work. Man, for a while there, there were a bunch of different animals there all at the same time! I finally saw the houses too. Unfortunately, I missed the sunset. It took place while I was driving home for lunch. :(

Thank you, Vegan. Chas, see if this link helps: My Webpage

you got it Jonny. Rarely does the watering hole remain unoccupied for long. It is also much easier to see when the sun comes up. There is a camera man who occasionally zooms in on the animals, but he seems to be sleeping now too.

Jonny under the photo are two links, one for Mac's and one for "non-Macs". Pick one and you are in. We've been glued to this thing on and off all morning. Watched zebras, monkeys, all kinda cattle. Now it seems it is getting dark and hard to see, but the frogs sure are making some noises! I can't wait for the sun to come up in Africa again!

"We continually hear about the shrinking middle class. It's shrinking because immigrants that lived in a cardboard and tin shack in their country can come here and live in a real apartment with electricty, plumbing, heat and AC. Work less eat better, and "free" health care. What we consider poor, and under-privledged, they consider middle class. They even have a car!! Unheard of in their country except wealthy people. SO business owners can get workers for 5.00 an hour who are happy to get it. It pulls down all wages." I think you may have a valid point regarding those who are willing to work for such low wages, but I am not convinced it is a problem resulting from immigrants. The part of the country I live in, certainly has immigrants, but not an overwhelming number of them. Additionally, a decent number of the immigrants here are college educated and/or business owners. I'd say the bulk of the employees I see working at Walmart, McDonalds, Burger King, etc. are U.S. Born and raised.

I have no idea if you are correct in your theory or not Al. It seems to me, there are plenty of people who are hear legally who will work for $5 an hour, simply because they are honest people with few skills, or they've fallen on hard times. I very much believe that anyone working a 40 hour work week deserves to earn a living wage. But Walmart is not breaking any laws by paying low wages, nor are they the only corporation doing so. I don't think my paying a higher price (that I can't afford) is going to make or break Wally. If I can buy my son a pair of shorts for $3 instead of $13, I'd be a fool to pay $13. See, not only do I shop Walmart, but I rarely buy merchandise (excluding food items) from them or anyone if it is not on clearance sale - I simply plan ahead and buy next summers clothing at the end of this summer season. I do think a "national strike", where our low wage earners refused to show up to work for a few days could improve things, but isn't likely to happen. Nor am I so convinced mandating living wages is the answer either, because then the prices will simply go up too. Perhaps the "national low wage earners strike" needs to occur in conjuction with a "national we refuse to pay outrageous prices" strike :D

I don't get it. A lot of companies pay low wages and provide no health benefits. McDonalds, Burger King, many chain grocery stores to name a few. Heck, I've worked for law firms that could not provide health benefits because they could not afford to pay the premiums. The last law firm I worked for provided health benefits for the employee only, if you wanted a family plan you had to pay the additional premium. So yeah, on one hand, I get the ideal that everyone who works should be able to afford medical care. I believe that whole heartedly. But I am convinced that the problem is not simply one of greed on the part of corporations like Walmart and McDonalds, though I am sure that is a factor. However, there are a number of other factors as well, including the outrageous cost of health insurance, the outrageous cost of medical care and prescription medications, the cost of malpractice insurance and a legal defense if one is sued, etc.

In our home, we average $150 a month in prescription meds and that is WITH insurance. So yeah, I'd get them at Walmart if it will save me money. I also buy a number of other items there. Ethics? How is it ethical for the drug companies to make billions of dollars off of someone else's misfortune? See, the ethical question cuts both ways. As D pointed out, if I buy the same item for more money from another store what differece does it make? The item was still made in another country, and the factory workers still made a lower wage than they would have here in the U.S. In the end, the only consequece of my paying more money for the item is that I would have less money for something else.

Fine - this is the word women use to end an argument when they are right and you need to shut up. Five Minutes - If she is getting dressed, this is half an hour. Five minutes is only five minutes if you have just been given 5 more minutes to watch the game before helping around the house. Nothing - This si the calm before the storm. This means "something," and you should be on your toes. Arguments that begin with "nothing" usually end in "fine." Go Ahead - this is a dare, not permission. Don't do it. Loud Sigh - This is not actually a word, but is a non-verbal statement often misunderstood by men. A loud sighmeans she thinks you are an idiot and wonders why she is wasting her time standing here and arguing with you over 'nothing'. That's Okay - This is one of the most dangerous statements that a woman can make to a man. 'That's okay" means that she wants to think long and hard before deciding how and when you will pay for your mistkae. Thanks - A woman is thanking you. Do not question it or faint. Just say you're welcome. Whatever - It's a woman's way of saying you'r an a** *ole! Example: "Nothing" is wrong. "Go ahead", it's "fine with me. I'll be done in "five minutes." "Loud Sigh". "Whatever", "that's Okay", "thanks". translation - Yes something is wrong and I dare you to (fill in the blank), now just shut up. I'll be done in half an hour. a** *ole, I promise you'll pay, thanks.

"When you get to the place in your heart and mind, where evil doers no longer exist. Thinking only the best of people, manifesting the renewed mind. At this point you have mastered the true definition of charity." No, then you have become a true sitting duck for every con artist out there who wants to take you for a ride. BTW, I am assuming when you say charity you are referring to agape?

I missed out on the 60's. I always thought I was born too late. :(

Very interesting stuff, Vegan!!!! Should you come across more information regarding brain development, neurons, synapses, etc. I would be very interested. I am doing some research on this topic in relation to ADHD and Bipolar disorder. BACK ON TOPIC Dooj, I have not seen the movie you mentioned earlier, but I would add I have a real issue with the way some pro-life people present their arguments and protest abortions - HOW they put their message out. One day I was driving home from a doctor appointment with my two boys, who were then about 6 and 8 years old. On the corner at a very busy intersection there was a large group of pro-life protestors holding picture's of fetuses as they would appear in-utero and after being aborted. Some were very graphic and gory. Not images I wanted my young children exposed to. In addition, I can only imagine that such pictures would inflicted great pain upon someone who was already dealing with emotional difficulties resulting from an abortion.

I thought this might be of interest to some (from HERE: Jewish Publication Society Hebrew—English Tanakh. If men fight, and they push a pregnant woman and she miscarries, but no other injury (ason) occurs, the one responsible shall surely be fined, when the husband of the woman shall assess, and he shall pay as the judges shall determine. But if an injury (ason) does occur, then you shall award a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot, a burn for a burn, a wound for a wound, a bruise for a bruise. - Exodus 21 :22–25 The rabbinic framework pertaining to fetal existence was already largely shaped by the time the Mishnah and midrashic texts came to be recorded in the second and third centuries of the Common Era. In many ways, it was a structure which served to enlarge and extend the plain meaning of the Exodus text. The Tannaʾim, inheritors of the Eretz Yisrael approach, 1 simply continued the legal tradition that regarded the killing of the fetus as a tort rather than a homicide. They did so, not just in circumstances such as those depicted in Exodus 21 :22–23, but in every context that a Jew might encounter. Exodus 21 :22–25, which is thought to date back to at least the ninth century BCE, 4 refers to spontaneous abortion or miscarriage. Given that “[a]bortions were always available” in antiquity, it is hardly plausible that this silence reflects ignorance of such practices. Rather, this muteness may be due to the orientation of the Israelite tradition, which consistently placed a great emphasis on the mitzvah (commandment) of procreation. “Be fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1 :28) is the very first commandment of the Torah.

Dooj, you make good points about the effects on the person who does the killing.

Abby if you have issues with christian doctrine one of the rules is the bible is to be used as an authority on this thread, then take it up with that. Pond, this thread is not a discussion about who does and does not get eternal life. This thread is about what the Bible says about abortion. Specifically defined, for the purpose of this thread, as a medical procedure used to end the life of an unborn baby.

I know this topic is supposed to be about what GOD says about abortion, but obviously we are having some degree of difficulty discerning that, at least some of us are. Others, perhaps are confident they have found the answer. If no one minds too terribly, I'd like to add a bit more to the mix. Taking a life, in and of itself, isn't always wrong. I think we can all agree on that. We kill living plants to eat. We kill animals to eat. At times we are even justified in killing another person - i.e. self defense. I think many of us would even agree there may be rare occassions when an abortion is justified - to save the life of the mother. So, what if we looked at soul/spirit and what sets humans apart from other living things. Perhaps there, we can dig up more information on this issue. Christians see one aspect of what sets us apart as being holy spirit. Jews see it as "free will", the ability to think, to chose, to discern good from evil. I am also thinking about how the human brain works, so I guess I am wanting to toss in a bit of science to the mix. If there are objections I can start another thread, but it is something that has been on my mind the last few days. The brain functions on electrical impulses. Doctors can open the skull of a living human, send electrical impulses to certain parts of the brain and generate responses without any thought or action on the part of the person. They can make a person move an arm or leg, feel a ticklish sensation on their feet, even hallucinate. So I am wonder, how is it that we control where those electrical impulses go - it is something beyond our mere thoughts, I think. Is it the soul/spirit that controls those electrical impulses? Would an understanding of that someone change our opinions on abortion? Just thinking and wondering out loud, I guess.

"And, correct me if I'm wrong Abi - but isn't Exodus referring to the judges in Israel and not just any old civil judge? " Dooj, I suppose that would depend on one's POV. Certainly, many Christians today would see it as you stated above. The more orthodox Jews would tell you that it is the way Israel should be run today, smany would likely go so far as to say the whole world would be better off under the O.T. judicial system. Many conservative Jews might also agree with that, at least up to a point. My personal POV is that the "how to BE a judge" part is very sound and would work for any civilization. As for the specific laws, I believe there is much to be learned from them and many would/should be applicable today. Others, I would not say that about, as our society and world has changed greatly since then. For example, what foods we can and cannot eat. It made sense in Biblical times, but in our day and time we are better able to preserve through refrigeration and we know more about cooking times and temperatures.

I have mixed opinions on this. On the one hand, I believe "natural foods" with less chemicals and additives are FAR healthier. We have switched from the paste known as white bread to high fiber whole grain breads. Same for our pastas and cereals. We rarely eat white rice anymore, opting instead for the higher fiber varieties or a mixture of white and high fiber varieties. I haven't eliminated processed foods, but I have drastically reduced them. I take a number of vitamins that I believe are lacking in my diet and/or will benefit me due to other genetically inherited difficulties. I have once again resumed my exercise program as well. I feel MUCH better. Of course, I had been down that road before and it didn't help me at all the first time. However, after being diagnosed with and treated for hypothyroid, adding those changes back into my lifesyle has done wonders. On the other hand, I have done some reading on the Omega 3 fatty acids and it's effect on the brain/mood/disorders, etc. A number of studies claimed the Omega 3 fatty acids can treat ADHD, so I gave that a try for a time with my boys. Not only did it NOT work, but their symptoms seemed to worsen. Obviously that is just a personal experience and not a scientific study. I think further research is certainly warranted. They can now take images of the brain that show specifically what area is misfunctioning with certain disorders, such as OCD, ADHD, and certain mood disorders. [My son's counselor showed me some pictures of these today - it was really interesting, you could see exactly what two areas of the brain are misfunctioning in a person with ADHD and how medications effected those areas.]. I think it could be interesting to do some long term studies using brain imaging to see if/how diet might effect the brain. Unfortunately, my understanding is the imaging studies require the use of low grade radiation - so long term studies might not be possible.

Abortion speaking here (in that I " chose to abort your won life to the mere time line we have now" because I do not adhere to Pond's understanding of Christ) . . . Pond, exodus says MUCH MUCH more than that we should simply let the courts decided in matters involving one another. It lays out very specific guidelines regarding issues the courts should hear, regarding what is required to deem one guilty, regarding specific punishments for specific crimes. So, perhaps some are missing your broader picture, but I would point out that perhaps you are so busy looking at the forest as a whole that you are going to walk right into a tree and knock yourself unconcious.

Hi Vegan, I am short on time at the moment. I'm sorry you couldn't access the article. Anyway, giving is considered a Mitzvoh/Command - but not in the sense that TWI taught it. We give because we want to make the world a better place, not because we are compelled to or because we are trying to earn or cooerce God into blessing or protecting us. The other aspect of giving, as many Jews today see it, is that because there is no longer a temple to offer sacrifices, we give instead. Giving is our sacrificial offering to God. But that doesn't mean giving 10% to the temple and then forgetting about it. In fact, the synagogues do not pass "offering plates". Instead, it is about giving our time, money, knowledge - whatever we chose to give, to any recipient we chose to give to.

Not that I can document directly at the moment. If I have time, I can do some research and look for some of the Rabinnical arguments. However, from my studies thus far I would say most of those concepts are more clearly spelled out in the Kabbalah and other oral traditions and not the Laws or Prophets of the OT. As I acknowledged in my last post, this is by and large a discussion on Christian theology. That is why I have been hesitant to add much to this thread. However, having studied Judaism, including Kabbalistic teachings, AND having a fairly strong background in the NT, I can see the threads of Judaism and Kabballah woven throughout the teachings of Jesus and the writings of Paul, so I added what I did in case it was of interest to some. I am willing to post some of the Rabbinical arguments if I can find time to do so and if anyone is interested. However, I have no real desire to debate this issue. It is an issue that is very personal and tends to bring up a lot of emotions in people, thereby greatly increasing the likelihood that at some point this thread will turn ugly.

Hills, a blogger got together with a LOT of other bloggers and they each decided to honor the memory of one person who lost his life on 9/11. I don't know if you have seen this or not so I am posting the link for you. http://www.rusvw.net/ scroll down to the September 11 entry.

I have been following this thread, though because by and large it has been a discussion based on Christianity, I have not said much. However, because we are discussing to some extent, O.T. laws, I thought I would add another cent or two. Judaism, by and large, views the Messiah and original sin very differently from Christianity. Judaism does not teach or believe in "original sin", nor do they view the Messiah as a "spiritual leader who will somehow save our soul/spirit". Rather, the Messiah is viewed as a military/political leader who will restore Israel and the laws. Some branches of Judaism believe that this will only occur when the people here on earth have matured to the point that we are ready for the Messiah. Some believe that we will bring it about by making the world a better place. Some say the Messiah will come when all the Jews on earth celebrate Shabbat (i.e. none of them forsake it). But almost all see the focus of Judaism as being on the here and now and how WE are to live our lives, as opposed to how to get to heaven, how to get saved, etc. In other words, a large part of the focus of Judaism, regardless of what branch you belong to, is about how can WE make this world a better place to live in. It is accomplished by how we choose to conduct our lives. That would have been the thought processes of the people of Israel. Paul was trained in Jewish Law and wisdom, so it would have been his thought process as well, at least on some level and to some degree. The Chassidics and some other branches believe that a fetus does have a soul and is alive. Yet, Jewish law teaches that abortion is not only acceptable, but REQUIRED, if it is the only way to save the mother's life. How can this be? Because although it has a soul and is alive, it is not a PERSON until it is born. The soul descends from God. The body is the vessel that holds the soul. But until it is born, the soul is not fully descended into this earth. Therefore, I would think the question of whether or not abortion is acceptable would be decided based upon how it would or would not make the world a better place. I.E. What would be the consequence to the individual, family, community, society, and world if a given individual had an abortion v had the child. In addition, I agree with the notion that God already knows whether that soul will ever fully descend and become a person or not.

Welcome Joseph, I am looking forward to hearing more from you. I come from a Jewish family, but was raised without any religious beliefs. Despite that, I always believed in God and wanted to learn more. I was in TWI from 1991 - 2000. In the last two years I have spent a great deal of time studying Judaism from both the Chassidic and Reform POV - with a mix of Conservative as well.

Wow there is some great information! I would like to respond more in depth when I have time but I will toss in a couple of comments for now. Dooj I think you bring up a great point about Cain's sacrifice and how much of a sacrifice it truly was. A point which both Johniam and Vegan added much to - so thanks for bringing it up!!!! Vegan, I have read some about the debates and opinions of P and J, they are very interesting and had no small effect on Judaism. Likewise, you are correct about the vowels and not only that, but the vowels that do exist, even today, are basically the consenants with some added "dots" to indicate what vowel it is - and even there, there are disagreements as to the exact placement of the dots. However, I think the bigger issue for this isn't whether or not the offerings were "seeds", "fruits", "milk" or "fat" (though that is an interesting topic in and of itself); but as JohnIAm pointed out, what was the heart and motive behind the offerings. If Abel gave of the first fruits and Cain gave of the "last fruits" - that does say something about motive and heart, no?