Abigail

Sushi! Yup Oaks, extra husband points for him. :) Back to this devil concept again. I think one of the other differences between how Judaism deals with adversity v what we were taught in TWI, is that in TWI we were always supposed to be fighting against the devil, resiting him, etc. From a Jewish perspective, all things that exist were created by God, therefore nothing can be truly evil. Even the enemy of death has an ultimate higher purpose in that it brings us to the possibility of the next life on a higher level of existence. The Chassidics teach that we all live for the exact amount of time we were meant to live - the amount of time needed to learn what we need to learn and to teach what we need to teach. In TWI we were often taught that if bad things happened - sickness, finacial troubles, whatever, it was because we were "off the Word", we "blew it" - it was always our fault and it was always a very negative thing. Now certainly, often times when bad things happen they are the natural consequence of a poor choice. But there are also many times when ".... just happens". But in either situation, Judaism seeks to find the higher purpose - the lesson to be learned - growth from within. Unlike TWI, which simpy sought to condemn us for allowing the devil to trick us. So, from that perspective, even IF there were a devil, he would not be viewed as pure evil and would not be feared.

Sunesis, first and foremost, I never said ANYONE was an idiot. I do have difficulty making sense out of certain doctrines and beliefs, but that does not mean I believe the person who adheres to them is an idiot. Beyond that, within the lines of this thread there are far more options then a) "Those who believe in God, Christ, and the existence of Lucifer - or Satan. . . " or b) "We also have those, who think this is all nice superstition, but perfection is to be found within ourselves" In fact, knowing what I believe far better than anyone else would know about what I believe; and having read Clay and Sir's posts for quite a long time, I would say none of us would classify ourselves in either of the two options you lay out. I don't believe the Bible is merely a bunch of superstitions. I also don't adhere to Christianity or a number of the doctrines laid out within Christianity (although there are also a great number I do agree with). I don't believe I am now or ever was the property of satan, or born into sin. In fact, God says I was awesomely and wonderfully made - how can what God says is awesomely and wonderfully made be born into sin? Strikes me as a contradiction. Therefore, I do not believe I need a savior in the Christian sense of the word. However, I do believe there is a God. I do believe within the pages of the Bible one can find a history of humanity, as well as God's desires for us, the information one needs to develop a relationship with God, and instructions on how to live a good life. The within part has to do with the internal struggles I face, some of which may or may not be similar to the internal struggles you face, or Sir faces, or Clay faces, etc. From that struggle we learn (and I mean really learn, internally in our hearts and minds) the things God put us on this earth to learn. The concept of that internal struggle is also found within the pages of the NT. Does not Paul speak of that which he would not do, but does; and that which he would do, but does not? Is that not an internal struggle? Where does one struggle with their "personal advesary?" Do they fight with fists and weapons? Or do they fight with thoughts and decisions that they act or do not act upon? You see the devil as literal, I see the devil as figurative. However, either way, I think both sets of beliefs hold to the notion that we struggle against something, no? What is it that we struggle against? You believe you are perfected in Christ, yes? Yet you would also acknowledge that you still struggle either way, yes? The difference, perhaps, is that I don't believe it is Christ that perfects me, but it is the struggle itself that perfects me.

Great posts, Sir! I find the notion of a literal god and literal devil duking it out in heaven hard to understand. Think about it, how could an all knowing and all powerful God lose? And if we can recognize an all knowing and all powerful being whom we cannot even see, surely the devil would know he cannot win such a battle! But even more important still, God could win it in the wink of an eye and has no need to drag it out for years and years. But say there is a good and valid reason for why God drags this battle with the devil out. What do we have to fear from the devil, really? Why even pay the devil heed, if we already know who will come out victorious? Do we not glorify the devil by attributing so much power to him? by fearing him, worrying about him, or even allowing our thoughts to dwell on him for more than the briefest of moments? What benefit is there to this notion of a devil? I very much believe the battle is within. It is our own internal battle of good and evil. Of discerning when something is good or evil and what makes it so. Isn't it Romans that says all things are good, but to him who deems it sin it is sin? I would even take it a step further and say the battle is not one of good and evil or love and hate, but one of ignorance and wisdom. Further still, I would suggest that even when we seeminly lose a battle, we gain wisdom and thus ultimately come out victorious.

He also seems to enjoy the occasional visit to Georgia.

Sorry, Sushi, but you must be mistaken. The devil lives right HERE in Michigan. He even trains his minions at DamU also located here in Michigan.

Great link, Oaks!! I was going to look for an article I read that dealt specifically with the story of Job, but I have not had time. Perhaps later.

I am short on time, but in regard to Danny's request, Judaism does not teach or believe in the Christian version of the Devil. Satan from Job is not Lucifer. Rather, Lucifer and Satan, as referenced in the OT, are understood in a number of different ways. In some, as figurative names for people, in some as figures of speech. However, in the simplest of terms, the basic notion comes down to humanity's freedom of will to make choices that result in good for the individual and society or have a negative result for the individual and society. Or in even more simplistic terms to obey God or not.

We LOVE Halloween! We decorate the yard with the huge, tacky, inflatable decorations. I also put a grave yard out front, complete with bones. I always dress up to take the kids out and to pass out candy. Usually I dress as a witch. I finally got tired of trying to get all the green face paint off, so last year I bought a mask. Around here, I think Halowween costs almost as much as Christmas. On the plus side though, the kids love the costumes and will wear them while playing off and on throughout the years until they outgrow them. My youngest still plays in his Hulk costume from 2 or 3 years ago, even though he can barely squeeze into it now.

oh man!!! Now how am I going to enjoy a good hot cup of java in the morning! :blink: I'm a big Starbucks fan. We buy their beans and grind them at home. Because they are soooooo expensive I buy a cheaper bean as well, and mix them together. I have found the coffee tasts best when the pot is about half way through brewing. :) yuummmmmm Belle, I'm going to try the vanilla thing, sounds great. I'm a little hesitant about the salt part, but who knows, I might try that too.

"christians want all to be saved as does God. The motive is not one of hurting anyone or making their own self feel better but rather a sense of obligation to preach what is truth." Yes, and I am sure the Muslim's feel the same way about their religion. So, how do you know they aren't the ones that are right, how do you know it isn't you who is wrong?

I suspect those who teach hell and brimstone and eternal damnation are those who are most in need of salvation. In other words, those who condemn themselves the most. They judge others, decide for God that others will go to hell for not "following the rules", because it is one of the few ways they can feel good about themselves. Pat themselves on the back and say, "yeah, but at least I'm going to heaven." Either that, or they are extremely bitter and can only console themselves by deciding others will burn in hell for eternity. Personally, I don't have the time or energy to spend time thinking about what God might have in store for others. I'm too busy living my life, taking care of my family, and doing those things I believe I need to do or have been led to do.

anyone else having this problem? Everytime I got to Wavelit, I get the same brief 5 or 10 second clip and then it freezes up. :(

I see him, he is adorable!!! No, the allegator is at Pete's Pond - the National Geographic site.

Ah, but pond that is subjective, not objective. I'm sure those in Al Quieda could say the same thing.

Pete's Pond has elephants right now! with BABIES!!!!

Seems to me, the fundamental Muslim's are equally convinced and perhaps even more passionate about their beliefs. So, how do you obejctively prove who is right? which book is right?

I found Pete's Pond off of one of Chas' links. Now I'm really in trouble cause I have to keep two windows up and follow both of them! lol

I saw that too, Al La! It could have been an owl. Shortly before the frog leg scene I had been watching an owl, it looked like it was watching back too! lol I looked away for a few minutes and when I looked back it was frog legs for dinner!

Humor is an important thing to a Jew. Why do you think there are so many Jewish comedians?

well they sure didn't stay long! It has been very quiet there this morning. The zebra's were the first animals I've seen, beside birds, all morning

Zebra's are wondering out and there are babies. I expect some as the sun starts setting we'll see some other critters too

They wander in and out, I leave the site open on my computer pretty much all day and peak at it when I can. The most active times, so far, seem to be around 10:30 - 12:30 a.m. and p.m. our times, which is around sunset and sunrise in S. Africa.

What I've seen so far: Giraffe Vervet Monkey Zebra Blue Wildebeest Impala Baboon Hammerkop (bird) Gazells/Waterbuck (not sure which) Kudo Elephant Hyena Steenbok/Bushbuck (not sure which) dugga boys (thse are the antelope with the hard white cap and antlers that were out with the zebras and giraffes this morning) and some sort of hog or pig

for anyone still awake, there is a giraffe there with the buffalo (Dugga boys) and zebra's. He's in the background nibbling on a tree and he looks quite young.

my computer at work doesn't have speakers, so the noise isn't an issue. Besides, I have my radio on and that covers any other possible noise anyway. :)