Abigail

It sure reveals the level of insanity our government system has reached.

"They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge." How does one hang in there and fight when they hold no power within the organization? [The answer to that question is very simple. Bring it out of hiding and expose it to the public]. Fight and the next thing you know, prophesies of spiders are being said about you, no? And why fight? Why hang in there? One does not need an organization to fellowship with God or with people. No organization is more important than the people it is supposed to be helping. Better for the organization to be the casualty than the innocent people. "Elizabeth was treated wrong and the prophetic words were very wrong and destructive, but I agree with someone earlier who said that she is not exactly innocent either." Innocent or not, there is no excuse for the meddling others did. To me, that is what is as issue here. The issue isn't who was right and who was wrong between John and Elizabeth, the issue is the degree and type of interference that took place. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that those who meddled had their own agenda and motives. They didn't give a rats behind about the marriage, the individuals, or God. "He and Lori have served the Body with a deliverance ministry and set many of our brothers and sisters free of demonic influences. He does use a Pre-counseling questionnare but he does not use it against people." Is Dan educated and or licensed in psychology? I ask, because if he is NOT, then he has no business messing around with other people's heads. Very dangerous waters there. "If people aren't willing to deal openly and honestly about their sinful issues then how do you expect them to be helped? " Perhaps so. But people would also be very wise to deeply consider who it is they are revealing their "sinful issues" to, no? Again, it would very much appear that at least a few of the higher ups are not worthy of such trust, no? "If any of you really believe in what this ministry is trying to do then how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. " I openly admit I don't really give a rats behind what CES claims it is trying to do. What I do care about, what does deeply bother me, is seeing people from CES experiencing the same horrors and pains that I experienced via TWI. So, I did speak up and write, and I did so in a gentle and non-threatening manner. Haven't heard anything back yet, though. "I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change?" Yes. TWI has made changes as a result of the cafe. Those changes may only be surface changes, and they may only be temporary, but they are changes nontheless. Likewise, the feedback I have seen on this thread seems to indicate CES is at least looking into some changes. When an organization becomes corrupt, a very public forum like this is often a great way to bring that corruption to light. Pretty hard to hide it in the closet with a place like the cafe, eh? Likewise, asking an organization to investigate itself is like asking the fox to guard the chicken coop. It often requires the public exposure of those who are corrupt to motivate the rest to remove them from power.

It is sort of long, but well worth it! HERE

Research. Lots and lots of research. Fellowship, friendship, entertainment. Music. Lots and lots of music. Photography.

See, ExC, that is why I like you so much!!!!

From HERE Kindergarten Student Accused Of Harrassment Posted by: Judy Wichrowski, Producer Created: 12/21/2006 7:53:09 AM Updated: 12/21/2006 7:53:30 AM Hagerstown, Maryland -- A Maryland kindergarten student has been accused of sexual harassment and written up. The five-year-old boy pinched a girl's buttocks. A spokeswoman for Washington County public schools says the episode in a hallway at Lincolnshire Elementary School earlier this month fits the state Department of Education's definition of sexual harassment. The definition in part describes sexual harassment as inappropriate physical conduct of a sexual nature directed toward others. The spokeswoman says the reprimand is a learning opportunity for the boy even though he may not understand that what he is doing is sexual harassment. But the boy's father says he doesn't know what to say to his son. He told The Herald-Mail of Hagerstown that the boy thinks of it as just playing and doesn't know anything about sex. Associated Press

QUOTE(Jonny Lingo @ Dec 21 2006, 11:12 PM) Ya know, I think that this thread is very "titillating". I think that we EX Ways have been away from the scandal for so long, that it is "refreshing" to see others go through what we went through. And, we can sit back and say: "Hey, don't buy that, it's a scam!" And we can know that we are right for, we know.... We have been there, and they have not, But maybe we, "the hurt ones" (us gscafe-ers) can save them from the evil offshoot. We are the ones who know the inner workings of the evil cultists, and therefore are the only ones to be able to save them from the "newer" Cult called CES.

Bow, you are braver than I. :) I get where you are coming from, especially where it concerns your daughter. I struggle with similar issues with my boys. But no way not how am I brave enough to check out an offshoot. I can't even get up the courage to attend services with the more traditional and widely accepted relgious organizations on any kind of regular basis. If you do this, I would be very interested in how it goes for you - if you care to share.

"IT IS NOT MY JOB OR PLACE TO BE SAVING ANYBODY." Words well worth repeating. To help someone with a compassionate ear, to share our experiences so they know they are not alone, that is one thing. To save them is something else entirely. And here's more food for thought on that subject, and then I will say something more directly on topic. As a girl who grew up in the 70's and 80's, I was spoon-fed Disney. I grew up fully believing that some Knight in shining armor would come along and rescue me, and then we would live happily ever after. What I learned though, is that the knight who needs to save you, needs you to be needy. What happens when you are no longer needy? Often, that knight will become verbally, emotionally, or physically abusive - to turn you back into that needy person so he can once again rescue you. Now to dreams (I have no experience with prophesy, nor do I want to). I have had dreams that were "revealing" to me. Even a couple of visions (for lack of a better term). In every instance where those have occured, they did not occur to guide me towards an action or inaction. Not once did they lead me to offer advice or direction to another person for their life. In every instance they occurred to offer me understanding and comfort. To help me understand something that took place. To comfort me and help me through something. That is it. I cannot imagine every becoming so arrogant as to believe God would tell me to tell so and so something. God is perfectly capable of communicating with someone directly. If someone won't listent to God, I doubt they will listen to me, so why would God need me to deliver such a message. I can't back any of that up scripturally, it is not an area I have ever been compelled to study, but to me it is common sense. To someone else it may not be and I suppose that is between them and God.

George, I remember you as LongGone and new LG was you also. I am really saddened to hear how sick you are. My mom died of cancer when I was about your daughter's age. My sister and I took care of her at home for as long as we could, even when it meant setting up a hospital bed in her livingroom. It was a hard hard thing to do. But I look back on those days and I am so glad I was given the opportunity to care for her and to make her passing as comfortable as possible. She and I weren't close before she got sick. We weren't really even that close after she got sick, but we were closer. I second what Psalmie said - write your memories. After my mother died, my sister and I had to clean out her apartment. In doing so, I found a box full of all the letters she had written and received from my step-father (who died about 10 years before her), while they were separated and she was in college. Those letters were the best gift my mother ever could have given to me. They allowed me to see her not as a parent, but as a woman. They allowed me to see the side of her that laughed and cried; who was frightened and faced her fears. Man, I am sorry to hear this news.

I dunno Joe, it sounds to me like CES exercises a good deal of control in people's lives too. They may cloak it differently, but from what I've read of Elizabeth's letter, its the same ...., different day to me. Maybe they haven't tried to exercise that much control over the lives of the "little people" yet, but it seems like that would be the direction they are heading in. fool me once, as they say.

I am not now, nor have I ever been affiliated with CES. However, I am human and curious, especially given who the players are in this particular drama. I couldn't read all of the letter though. I brought back too many painful memories and emotions - the craziness of it all. It is all too familiar, too similar to my own experience with TWI (minus the "prophesies" cause we had "revelation" instead :blink:) My heart breaks for John and Elizabeth - I don't care who is right and who is wrong or who did what to whom. It is madness - the doctrine, the power struggles, all of it. How sad for them and how horrendously wrong for other people to have interjected themselves into their marriage and couched it in the guise of love and godliness. I do understand airing it. I understand her desire to have her side heard. I understand the desire to protect others, to warn them. I wish I had known what I was getting into before I joined TWI. But mostly, I just feel very very sad to see another marriage in ruins because of bad doctrine, meddling and a thirst for for power and control.

My favorte Santa story. When Aaron, my older son was born, we were very into TWI. We didn't want to lie so we never played the santa game. Instead we told him santa wasn't real. Then he went to pre-school and low and behold, come Christmas, Santa came to his class and gave him a present. Aaron came home and confronted me. He told me I was a liar and there was too a Santa. :blink: I don't think it matters which way you go with Santa. You do what seems best to you and your child will be fine either way.

PinkLady - would you check your private topics please. :)

Love him, be there for him, and avoid discussing religous beliefs. If the suject comes up, listen but don't debate. Native American beliefs vary. You will find diversity there as you do with any religion that falls under one large label - Christianity, Judaism, etc.

White Dove, I have really tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I have likewise really tried to understand your point of view. However, I am getting the distinct impression you are completely unwilling to return the same to anyone who has a point of view which differs from your own. "What I don't like is the constant doctrinal rant that life in the way was abuse, rape torture, misery, pain, and anything else nasty that you can think of." How do you know it wasn't for some?? Certainly it wasn't for all, no one has disputed that fact. Quite obviously it wasn't for you, your family, your friends (at least from what you see from the outside - no one knows what goes on behind closed doors except those behind them.) Likewise, it most certainly was that way for some. Oh no, it didn't start out that way. My first 5 years in were wonderful. I learned a lot and I was healed from a lot. But the last 5 were night and day different from the first. Perhaps she has some unresolved issue that causes her to only see bad I don't know. We probably are the extremes in the mix with the truth somewhere in the middle. I never said that everyone's experience was a good one., but I can't support the view that all there was is abuse, rape, torture , and misery. I know too many that did not have that experience. Perhaps she does. Perhaps I do. Perhaps a number of people here do. Do you think you are helping them or hurting them on this thread? Do you care if you help them? Do you care if you hurt them? I don't think anyone here has said "that all there was is abuse, rape, and toruture." Obviously, if that were true most would never have joined and certainly would not have stayed. It started out great for most of us, I would bet money on that. Most of us have happy memories mixed in with the bad ones. But we paid one HELL of a price for the good we received. We don't need to resolve, work through, vent about, or be healed from our good experiences, hence we don't talk about them as often. That doesn't mean we didn't have them. But what many of us NEED to talk about, so that we can resolve, work through, vent, and be healed from are our bad experiences, hence we DO talk about them often. Is that really so difficult to understand? "I'm willing to accept the bad I ask that others except the good. " I think you might need to define what the good is here, Dove. Is the good the friends we made? The love we felt from others and for others? The doctrine? And if you primarily mean the latter, well some do and will acccept it as good, many will not. I think there was some good, sound doctrine. I also think there was some very bad doctrine that opened the door for a lot of abuse and hurt. Does that mean I don't accept the good? "those with axes to grind tend to congregate here " Why do you suppose that is? Do you think their "axes" are invalid? Do you think all of us are making it all up? That we are simply holding a grudge and making up lies for revenge? "I'll always push for the fair and balanced view. It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it." Why? Why does somebody have to do it? Why does it have to be done on this thread? Why can't you start another thread for fair and balanced and leave this one (and others like it) to those who need to voice their experience, their pain? And HOW can you push for fair and balanced about someone else's experience? Did you receive revelation on that? All that I asked was to see each for what they are and as Abigail mentioned consider that maybe in all instances it was not doctrine that made these people do what they did, they may have just been that way regardless of where they ended up. Yes, I did say something akin to that. BUT, while I do believe these people would have done it regardless of where they ended up, the fact is they ended up in TWI. The fact is, they used the doctrine taught by TWI to further their agenda of abuse. The fact is, no one with real leadership authority stood up and tried to put a stop to it. Many of the lower level people did. Even some in the corps did. They were silenced. They were marked and avoided. The rest of the people were told they were possessed and to stay away from them. However, those with the real power, those in the real positions of authority within the Way Tree (and there were a number of people in those positions who did know what was going on) did not try to stop it. At best, they tried to cover it up, not correct it. So yeah, it is the doctrine, along with the abuse it was used to further, that is ripped apart here. It only makes sense it would be, if you really think about out. How do we undo the wrong teaching received, if not by talking about it. See, I was taught what the title of this thread says. Paul went to Jerusalem and the others followed their leader even though they knew he made the wrong decision. That is what I was taught. Martindale taught it from the pulpit. Now maybe that isn't what VPW taught you. Maybe that isn't what you experienced. Fine. I can accept that. VPW was long dead and gone before I ever joined TWI. But it IS what I, and many others here were taught and experienced. "I said own your choices and move on, don't blame someone or something else for your choices in " I have owned my choices. I have paid the price for them, I have learned from them, and I have moved on. Hell, I rarely even post in this forum anymore. However, that does NOT mean I don't hold other's accountable for the role they played in the choices I made. For the pressure they put on me. For the abuses they committed against me. For cussing me out, humiliating me in front of others, making unreasonable demands, trying (and damned near succeeding ) to convince me I would die if I left TWI, etc. Greasespot, in addition to giving us a place to vent and work through our experiences, also gives those in and wanting out a place to go - to realize they are not alone. To realize that what some of them have experienced or are currently experiencing isn't/didn't just happen to them. That there is a way out. That there is a place where they can go and talk about what is happening to them. " I can't remember the last time you even spoke somethiong neutral about the Way much less favorable." So what? Maybe she has and you missed it. Maybe she talks about the "good times" when she is roasting weenies over a campfire with Greasespot friends. Maybe she never talks about good times because she just isn't there yet. Or maybe she doesn't talk about good times because she simply wants those who have had similar experiences to know they are not alone. " I can't remember the last time you even spoke somethiong neutral about the Way much less favorable. . . . . I have family that lived there for a number of years they are fine no one is beaten, scared" Praise God for that Dove. I shared my experience regarding a couple from Rome City with you. But the point is, just because your family and friends made it out whole, doesn't mean everyone did. I would say that might be especially true for those who were there in the 90s. "If you want to discuss 90s events fine I can't speak to that , but don't try to tell me what I or others experianced in other years was not real" Did someone do that? Because if so, I missed it. You say you are trying to be fair and balanced, I take your word for that. However, that is not how you are coming across. Perhaps that is simply because this is the internet and there are no facial expressions or voice tones to go with your message. But in any case, for whatever reason, you are coming across as rather harsh and judgmental.

I think in the later years, after WhiteDove left, the "isolated events" he referred to earlier were not so isolated. In the later years, abusers found a home in TWI - a place where they could freely abuse without reproof or guilt. Where they could abuse and have that behavior condoned, if not praised. However, he does have a valid point. Not because we want to absolve leaders who twisted scriptures or abusers who hurt people, but because if we recognize our role, we are less likely to find ourselves in that role again. Then WhiteDove said: "They were not abusers because they twisted teachings they twisted teachings because the were abusers. " This too, I think is a very valid point. Those who abused did so because that is a part of who they were. They would have done so regardless of where they were. They would have justified it, regardless of what was taught. Likewise, those who did not - or perhaps those of us who attempted to follow the doctrine of abuse that was taught behind closed doors, but weren't abusers, did figure out the doctrine was crap. For some of us it took longer than others, but we did get it. IF we can come to terms with why we allowed ourselves to follow these doctrines (and at least in my case it wasn't simply because I wanted to "do the Word") we can prevent ourselves from falling into a similar situation. In my case, it was because I didn't trust myself, my abilities, etc. I trusted man over what God, instinct, common sense (whatever you want to call it) was telling me. That being said, I think Dot made an excellent point also, when she said: "However, we all have areas where we are not strong. I know someone who was sexually abused . . . . . . .The emotional damage and diminished self-esteem is almost irrepairable (except by God). And for me to say to a person such as that --"Why didn't you take a stand? Why didn't you say no? He did not hold a gun to your head? You had a choice!" and to vent some of the horror she experienced and it seems you keep shutting her right to vent down -- with scripture and an example of your strength. . . . . . I think she needs to talk about what happened so she can figure things out. People do need to vent. To tell the story of the hurt they experienced, of the confusion, pain, humiliation, shock, etc. In talking about what happened, we often are able to eventually find a perspective that helps us understand and deal with what happened. To find a place where we are stronger. But, if we shut them down before they get there, they may never get there - or at the very least it may take them longer to get there. Tp say "You didn't make the Word your own and that is why you experienced those thigs", is a slap in the face to may of us, regardless of the truth there may be in the statement, because most of us truly were trying to make the Word our own even if we didn't succeed in doing so. It really does make it harder to vent, find perspective, and heal. For my own situation, I can now (some 6 plus years later) agree that I didn't make it my own. That I did put men before God, so to speak. But again, as I said earlier, it wasn't for a lack of desire, a lack of heart, or even a lack of effort. It wasn't even simply because I was "weak willed" across the board. There were a number of years when I did stand up to leadership - where I did say "THIS is what the Word says". But over time, I gave in to "group think". I allowed those I trusted to persuade me that I was wrong. I had self-esteem issues going into TWI and over the years, what self-esteem I did have going inm was slowly eroded away. And even that is a simplistic explanation. Both sides of this issue have valid points. However, even if "You didn't make the Word your own" and/or "you didn't search the scriptures" is true - people need an opportunity to figure that out for themselves. If one goes to counseling, for example, a counselor listens, offers some empathy, and at proper times asks thought provoking questions. This allows the individual to come to the realizations they need to when they are ready too. One cannot force these realizations on others. Not only does it not work, but in inflicts more wounds.

Does it taste like chicken? And just where does one buy bear? I've never seen it at my local grocery store.

sorta WG, would you please check your private topics. :D

Thanks. iTunes did the trick and I am having a blast there. I stay away from the free downloads. They are usually illegal and they tend to carry a lot of bugs. But iTunes is great so far, I've got a ton of songs already. Sunday I'll work on burning them and see how that goes. I figure if I have trouble I know who to call. Thanks Paw!!!!!!!

Can anyone recommend a good website for LEGAL music downloads in WAV format? I would like to burn some CD's for gifts for the kids. Thanks

Mark, I have a couple of buttons, to be sure. But for the most part, if you disagree respectfully I will not take it as a personal insult. ;) Even if I did, I'd get over it. :) "True, and this is a HUGE expense for families. I would, in turn, ask you to decompose the statement a bit. What are the factors that lead to increased cost of college tuition? . . . . . I think you would find that the biggest single cause is increased requirements for salaries." You may be right, although I would have attributed it to healthcare and retirement. I don't know what the requirements are for universities, but in Michigan the retirement benefits alone, required by state law, are breaking our local school districts. The charter school my boys attend is looking at moving to an employee leasing set up in order to reduce this expense. We currently pay 15% of the teacher's salarys into a retirment fund and it is expected to move to 30% over the next five years. However, it seems to me that if universities simply refused to offer such high salary's, those who truly want to teach would accept a lower one. That too we see in our school. We simply cannot afford to offer $50,000 plus. Yet, because so many teachers are currently unemployed in our state, we have no problem finding highly qualified and wonderful teachers. In fact, our charter school has 100% highly qualified teachers while the local city school district only has 83%. What contributes to the loss of an extended family? Mobility is no doubt a factor. . . . . . Another contributing factor is smaller family size, itself. Face it, if a person's parents each came from a family with two children, there's not much of an extended family to draw upon... I agree, those are factors. I think our reliance upon the government is another huge contributing factor. We now rely more and more on the government to take care of those family members that are elderly, ill, or otherwise incapacitated and unable to support themselves. Social climbing also contributes - that too I see within my own family. The wealthier members have little, and in most instances, nothing to do with the less weathly members. [You touched on this a bit in your response as well, although you were making a somewhat different point.] "I think that an examination of wages throughout history would reveal that physical/ manual labor jobs in this country have never really paid a decent wage." We may need to define what a decent wage is. From my perspective, a decent wage is one that allows you to pay for basic needs such as food, clothing, shelter, transportation to and from work, healthcare, and perhaps some small amount left over for entertainment such as trips to the beach or park, etc. These days, a full-time job at your local grocery store isn't likely to cover those basic needs for an individual, much less a family. Nor is a job as a housekeeper or janitor. So of course, fewer and fewer people want those jobs. Greed, mobility of society, and lack of available resources to the working class have been with us since the dawn of time Yes, and since the dawn of time, or at least the dawn of our country, we have cycled back and forth in trying to find a balance between greed and need. For small periods of time we wave at it as it we cycle toward one extreme or another. The current trend is for the rich to get richer, while the middle class becomes poorer. I could, in theory, live in an apartment in a lousy neighborhood, and end up paying about 1/3 of what we do. We could have an old "WOW-Mobile" instead of the two decent cars we have. And so on and so forth. It would be hard to go back to that level (although, in the military, I was there before), but had we always been there and didn't have the thought to do otherwise, would we miss what we never knew? lol - you may find it would bring your family closer together. We were on our way towards that upward mobility, prior to Sushi becoming at least temporarily unable to work due to a physical condtion. We were working our way out of the crappy neighborhood, we are making payments on two vehicles, etc. Now we are facing saying goodbye to that, at least for a while. But you know, I'm thinking on some levels our lives will be less stressful if one of us is home all day to take care of the physical needs of the house; if we aren't worrying about making two car payments; if we aren't strugging to figure out how much money down we will need - what house will be the best buy, etc. Bad neighborhoods have an upside, if they aren't too horrible and dangerous. Our kids are learning our value system. They are learning that while money may buy you certain physical comforts, it does not buy you happiness. They are learning that family is more important than having stuff. They are learning to jduge people on who they are, not what they have. I've lived on both sides of the tracks. They both have their benefits and shortcomings. If there is a causal relationship between the pill and the birth rate, is the pill the reason or just an enablement to a societal change that was ripe to happen?. . . . . Had the pill somehow been introduced in 1900 rather than 1960, would the birth rate have as dramatically fallen upon its introduction? And here you have, what I believe to be, the number one reason for the fall in birth rates. I don't know if birth rates would have fallen if the pill had been introduced earlier, but I suspect it would have. What I do very much believe though, is that our society was defintely ripe for the changes that took place during the time period that birth control pills became widely available. Choice for women. That is a change we were definitely ripe for and desperately in need of. I think it may be very difficult for many men to understand that, because historically men always had more choices available to them than women did, until the advent of the pill and the movement for equal rights for women. Imagine what it would be like, to know your only path in life was to marry, have children, and take care of the wants and needs of your family (especially when children tend to be the most thankless creatures on this earth. :D ). To have no say over what your husband did to your body (It has only been in the past 30 - 40 years that forced sex was considered rape when it was between a married couple). To have no say in the number of children you gave birth to. To have no choice regarding whether you had children, a career, or tried to find some balance between the two. For some women, staying home and raising a large family is pure heaven. For others, it is pure hell. Prior to the birth control pill and the women's movement, even those who thought it was pure hell had little to no choice in the matter. I don't think that you would approve, though, if France adopted Sharia law. That could happen in a liberal democracy that is overwhelmed by members of a particular culture who do not adapt. You will note, I did qualify my statement with regard to extremist groups, yes? Also, I think you will find that a large number of immigrants who come to this country do so because they value the freedoms we have here, which include separation of church and state. In theory could that change? Sure. But I don't think we are anywhere near being threatened by that. Again, what are the societal impacts of the declining birth rate? Have we, as a culture, replaced the value we place upon having a larger (not even large) family with the value of providing material goods for ourselves and the zero, one, or two children in our families? And is that a good thing looking at it in the ultimate sense? I'm not sure how to determine the societal impact of a declining birth rate. In our society, I think the poorer people tend to have a higher birth rate than the weathier, which ultimately could be detrimental, but not for fear of our culture being taken over by a foreign one. I am far more concerned about what happens to those children who grow up without adult supervision, without basic needs, without an opportunity for a good education and decent healthcare. I worry about the value, or lack thereof, those children place on human life, personal freedom, respect for others, etcl. On the other hand, perhaps those kids will rise up (as occured in the 20's and 30's) and demand better wages from the greedy CEOs. THAT would be a good thing for our society. Likewise, I am not convinced we are giving up larger families simply because we place such a high value on material goods. I think we are giving up larger families for an overall higher quality of life, to be sure. But higher quality does not necessarily equate with unnecessary material goods. Evan talked about a culture where decisions were based upon what would be best for the society. There is value to that, and it is something we are seriously lacking in our society. It is something that should be fixed. Having larger families won't fix that. In fact, having larger families may make it worse. See, what Evan describes strikes me as something of a socialistic society. I'm guessing that the society he described, while it may have some degree of class differences, probably makes sure that all of its people have food, clothing and shelter. We do that to some degree in our society, but we are far from "there" yet. We still have children whose only meal is the free lunch they receive at school. We still have people who cannot get basic healthcare. We still have CEOs making millions of dollars every year, while people are going hungry. I see those issues as being far more detrimental to our society than the declining birth rate.

As a result, there are simply not enough young people (more importantly there are not enough young people willing) to do the hard work needed to maintain the infrastructure of the economy and to do the needed physical labor. We have outsourced much of the hard manufacturing work that is needed by industry to other countries. Both Europe and the US. We have imported labor to do much of the hard work needed to create and maintain infrastructure in this country (agriculture, construction, maintenance). Again, I see this as stemming from different causes. Fewer of the physical/manual labor jobs in our country pay a living wage, so fewer are willing to do them. Those that do pay a living wage are often the union shops. Unfortunately, with the rising cost of healthcare, fewer businesses can afford to pay a living wage AND pay for healthcare benefits so it is cheaper for them to outsource those jobs to countries that do not have unions, do not require living wages, do not offer employer sponsored healthcare. Then there are those businesses that are profitable enough to do all of the above, but are run by greedy CEO's (and there your perspective definitely comes into play) who want to put as much money in their own pockets as they can and could care less about the people working for them. This is not a new thing. In fact, it is not so different from the way things were in the days before unions and labor laws existed. Eventually, we the people, will have to find solutions to those problems. Is the trend reversable? Honestly, I doubt it. I sincerely believe that within 50 years, Europe will be a Muslim continent (by and large). I also believe that Spanish will be the principal language used within the US somewhere around that time. And I don't think there is anything that could be done about it at this juncture. In the grander scheme of things, does that matter? Does it really make a difference whether we speak English or Spanish? Or is the important thing simply that we are able to communicate with each other? Does it really matter if the bulk of the people practice Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or some other religion? All of them (when not practiced in extremist fashions) have very similar values.

While I know there are exceptions...I think we can agree that, since World War II, western (steeped in or stemming from the Greco-Roman traditions) society (a community, nation, or broad grouping of people having common traditions, institutions, and collective activities and interests) has, by in large, become increasingly materialistic. How has that tendency affected the mores (the fixed morally binding customs of a particular group) of that society? And how do those societal mores affect the individual values inculcated into the individuals and couples impacting the processes used in deciding to conceive, bear, and rear a child (or children)? and But what caused that couple to take that decision? (And, more to the point, what causes a number of couples to take similar decisions?) I very much believe that our materialistic lifestyles have a negative impact on our society in many, many ways. Does it effect the individual's values and impact the decision of whether to have children and how many children to have? I am sure it does. But, I think it is only one factor out of several that impact the decision of whether or not to have children and how many to have. The loss of the extended family (which I see as even more detrimental to our society) probably also has a bearing on how many children people decide to have. [Warning, I'm going into the anecdotal again :D]. For me, (recognizing I may not be typical), the decision to stop at two wasn't purely about economics. Certainly, economics played a role - I don't want to have children if I cannot afford to provide them with food, cothing, shelter, and necessary medical care. However, it had far more to do with the realization that I did not have it in me emotionally, mentally, or physically, to spend another 2 or more years of sleepless nights followed by long, isolated days changing diapers and wiping noses. I stayed home with my boys until they were old enough to go to school and I don't regret one minute of that time with them. However, it was also a very very difficult time for me. I found that I am a much better parent if I have some time away from home, working at a job I really enjoy doing. I need the mental challenge and the socialization. I am fortunate (and most certainly atypical) in that I work for wonderful people and I am able to schedule my work around my children's needs. I can take them to school and be there with them after school. However, if my circumstances had been such that I had extended family close by, my decision may have been different. The days would not have been so long and isolated if I had a mother, grandmother, aunt, cousin, or sister who was also home all day. Then there would have been another adult to share the duties, to have adult covernsation with etc. I could have been happy at home cooking, cleaning, playing with kids, if I didn't have to do it alone. In addition, the need for a college education in order to earn a living wage may also impact a couple's decision to have a larger or smaller family. In our day, it is nearly impossible to earn a living wage without one. I don't expect that I will be able to finance my children's college education 100%. Already, though they are still in elementary school, we talk about the need to work hard and do well in school so that they will qualify for scholarships. We also talk about why a college education is so important and the long term impact of not having one. Of the difference between being unable to put a nutricious meal on the table (or even being able to afford a table) verses being skilled enough to earn a living wage. And notice, I said living wage, not excessive living wage. :)

Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote, or hearsay. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, as evidence that cannot be investigated using the scientific method. The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy. Statistical evidence may determine how typical something is. However, it also leaves a lot of information out, often including the why something is typical. In addition, statistical evidence is not always based on scientific principals, but can and often is slanted toward the bias of the individuals/group doing the research. If a person is predisposed to a certain position, I have no doubt they can find statistics on the internet to support it. They will also be inclined, consciously or unconsciously, to disregard or ignore those statistics that do not support their premise. For instance, I have no doubt there is accurate information to support the premise that people are having fewer children today than they did 100 years ago. However, I would guess that there is also statistical information that would support the premise that fewer children die of childhood diseases and fewer women die in childbirth (in our country - which is what this discussion is about). Based on that, I could surmise that we no longer need to have as many children in order to promulgate our species or society. However, that does not mean that no longer needing as many children is actually the reason why people are choosing to have fewer children. Likewise, the need for a college education in order to earn the income necessary to support a family.