Abigail

I can't help but wonder if some of you are more concerned about being right/winning an argument, than you are about helping the CES people who have come here figure out what happened, what is happening, and what might happen down the road.

Great point. Also great points made by "grace" and Ducttape. Jeff did a good job of distracting the people here from the real problems with CES, by posting John's letter. The problems with CES run far deeper and are more widespread than John Lynn. John's letter is a distraction from the core problems, a distraction from how widespread the problems are. Grace said: NOTE: CES is not in a Mess just because on January 15 the Board will vote Mark out as President, terminate him as an employee and cut off further input from Karen Anne (and probably from Tom and Susan). CES is in a Mess because your entire BOD has continued to allow more and more ungodly words and actions to reign in their/your organization and refused to hear from many believers who pointed it out to them. Tragically, it is just what occurred in The Way under whom your BOD was trained. and Ducttape pointed out: We are all just discussing John Lynn's favorite subject, John Lynn

The letter from John Lynn is an interesting study, no doubt. Giving the benefit of the doubt, I would guess it is a great example of denial and how denial effects one's ability to think critically. That being said, JAL isn't CES. JAL doesn't even have an official position with CES anymore, to my knowledge and understanding. Just like TWI's problems continue, despite the change in leadership (removing the front man be retaining those who covered for him), CES's problems will continue, even if the latest front man "MG" is removed from power. It goes back to structural problems, doctrinal problems, a lack of checks and balances. Here's something else I was thinking of. JAL made reference to what great friends all the BOD members once were, and some still are. My experience and opinion tell me that having a BOD that consists of best buddies is rarely going to be good for an organization. Human nature is such that if "Joe" comes up with a really bad idea, the others are less inclined to vote against him because they don't want to hurt or offend their friend. Likewise, the are less likely to even look critically at the idea, because they assume their wonderful friend would not be capable of coming up with a really really bad idea. Better to have a BOD that is made up of a group of individuals who respect each other, but have no overly strong emotional ties or emotional dependence upon one another. Griff - you will find the letters HERE

It's a pleasure to meet you William, I hope you will stick around and that the coffee is to your liking.

Gasp! Then there really is a trinity!!

Or a bagel with lox?

Well said, Tom. Its really not that difficult to sit back and pinpoint some of those problems. 1. If the majority of the board agrees that an individual needs to be removed from a position - especially a high position like President, but has no power to remove that individual, the structure is bad. 2. When new things are taught (such as personal prophesy, Jesus is or isn't God), I can't help but wonder who decides what is on or off "The Word." Who makes sure it is truly accurate? Is there a research team? Does the research team basically consist of the very same people who are the board? [Again, if it does, the structure is bad, because it lacks proper checks and balances.] 3. It seems to me, somewhere along the line, people stopped worshipping God and started worshipping their friends and/or their "prophets". 4. John Lynn talks about disagreeing with some of the prophesies (and good for him for doing so!), but does one have to be a "top gun" in CES in order to be allowed to do so? Who determines what prophesies are truly from God and which are not? What is the process? Where are the checks and balances? 5. Who determines under what circumstances a staff member can be fired? Is there a proper job description and means of evaluating performance? If there isn't, not only is there a lack of proper checks and balances, but depending on the state laws where the employee is working, they could leave themselves open to a lawsuit. There's a start, and one that doesn't even begin to discuss the soundness, or lack thereof, of their doctrine. Johnny, I understand where you are coming from - you've a good heart, really. I see this from a different perspective than you, though. When people use God or "His Word" as a weapon to beat up others, when they hide behind it to excuse hurtful words or actions, in my opinion it is a manifestation of their heart. I'm not saying John Lynn or the others are evil, but there is something wrong there. Maybe it is fear, fear of losing their position within the organization, a lack of trust that people would understand and forgive if the real truth were known, whatever. Maybe it is greed. Maybe one or more of them has simply become delusional. But having spent 10 years under LCM's reign in TWI, it does stir up a lot of emotions in me when I read about this stuff. Preaching/pastoring/ministering/teaching in God's name is a very serious business (and isn't it unfortuante that is often such a lucrative business, too?). No one should get away with using God to hurt others.

Read the threads, Eagle. I would recommend you start with "The Facts" and read the "personal prophesies" there then Elizabeth's letter. You might have a better understanding of where people are coming from. Beyond that, I am sure John Lynn is not evil incarnate, or even LCM incarnate. However, CES seems to be facing problems not so different than what TWI has faced. Probably for very similar reasons too.

He's just afraid he might eat something healthy. Hey babe, what about brown rice?

As you read his letter, think about this. The letter was written by a man who couldn't be honest enough to say he was divorcing his wife because the marriage was a mistake. Or because it simply wasn't working out. Or even because she was a raving b**tch. He had to justify it by couching it in "godliness", via some very destructive and hurtful "prophesies". He couldn't just walk away and leave her, he had to completely demoralize her first. Or at the very least, he supported those who did. In my mind, that makes anything he couches in the name of god questionable.

"I am assuming that many believers who read this are either very good friends of mine or people who know quite a bit about me and my involvement in this wonderful ministry" Right there, I don't buy it. Given the way this was written, and particlularly the ending, I'm betting John knew that in all likelihood this letter was going to end up here ag the cafe. He is being manuplative by saying otherwise. "I initially heard that the main point of contention was that four of the other five Board members (John, Gary, Karen, and Dan) had asked Mark to step down from his presidential responsibilities for six months, move his office to his home, and, while still being paid the same salary, work on some very serious personal matters that, in their opinion, had, and still were, greatly hampering his ability to perform the required duties of president. He was asked to focus on writing the administrations book and the clergy ordination education curriculum. Mark declined to step down, however, and Tom stood with him in that decision." First, I would say the offer to step down with pay was certainly a generous one. I can't help but wonder how many of those who give money to this organization think that it is best for their money to be spent paying a salary to someone who was not able to perform his job duties. I would then wonder what kind of a set up they have for this organization. I sit on a board. If the majority of the board votes the school leader out, the school leader is out. It doesn't matter if there is one board member who objects. Neither the school leader, nor an individual board member, has the power to override the majority. "Some have felt she is “running the ministry” via her prophecies, Many times I have vehemently (and, I firmly believe, rightly) defended her." This would include, apparently, defending her phrophecies regarding his wife. That right there would make me question is judgment then and now. "That being said, I have of late been surprised to learn that the perception of her negative influence is far more pervasive than I realized, and, having been made aware of numerous incidents in which she has exerted undue and harmful influence, I no longer believe that this perception is groundless." What made him change his mind on this? He supported Karen when she attacked his own wife, and now he changes his mind? I would appear, to this outsider looking in, that he changes his mind because of public pressure, not God. Again leaves me wondering if this isn't simply more manipulation, as opposed to any kind of Godly sorrow or insight. it has now become a weakness, as many will testify that she has been meddling in things she shouldn’t Like his marriage? Again, leaves one to wonder how sincere his is, given the way he supported her when she meddled there. alleged prophetic words from the Lord that were very derogatory to John and Jenivee, Dan, and Gary and Karen T., and which did not line up with the facts as I see them. Interesting. I wonder who else in CES is allowed to disagree with a prophesy if they can state it doesn't line up with the "facts as I see them." Seems to me, that at least one person lost her spouse for stating the prophesies did not like up with the facts as she saw them. All of us together are what makes STF what it is. [Context would make it appear that the "all of us together" is the board, president, leadership] Makes me wonder where God is in this? Where all those who contribut financially, physically, spiritually are? magnify our flaws above the good we are doing for people. No amount of good justifies the damage that appears to have been done here. It seems to me, the implication is that if I start robbing banks, possibly injuring a few bystanders in the process, it is okay as long as I give the stolen money to the poor. "Third, get close enough to the nucleus of STF leadership to see their hearts before you impugn them. " Having read the "prophesies", I don't want to see any further into the hearts of those who wrote them or supported them. That is darkness, through and through - there was not an ounce of love in that. "the reason I remain totally committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the “package” we have to offer," Yeah, that would pretty much be the exact same line TWI sold us too. You learned well, grasshopper.

Intersting, I sent him an email almost a week ago now - and used my name. Haven't heard anything back.

The sad thing, D, is that the speaker in your link was speaking tongue in cheek, but people like CK probably really believe what he is saying.

Snow? Here in Michigan then kids spent the afternoon outside with squirt guns.

Ducy makes a very valid point. If the same people who allowed all of this to occur, the same people who stood silent while it occured, are the same people who are going to fix it, more than likely it will be a band aide covering a pustulant infection. That is exactly what TWI has done. Those who covered up what LCM did are the very same people who are now running the show. On the surface it may seem kindler and gentler, but I wouldn't put my money on anything truly godly coming out of HQ. Likewise, with those of CES who did likewise.

We don't have Christmas dinner, we have Christmas brunch, from which my tummy is now full. Bagels with lox, cream cheese, onion and tomato. Omletts. Smoked white fish. Fresh Vegies, fruit, orange juice and egg nog. With all that, who needs dinner?

The starbucks thing really got to me, because I have actually seen that in East Lansing.

roflmao, D

My family is seed!!! Personally, I like Miracle Whip because it is a little sweeter. But I am all alone in that preference as everyone else in my family prefers mayo.

Hadn't read that one, but more proof of systemic insanity

"The "current crisis at CES" is an administrative crisis. " Perhaps you are right, Grace, and in many ways you are in a better position than I to know. However, it appears as if the crisis is more than an administrative crisis. It seems as if the crisis is one that stems from bad doctrine and/or bad practice. I don't want to turn this into a deep theological discussion, because many of us at the cafe have a different understanding and perception of what the Bible says and there are likewise those who don't believe the Bible at all. That is why I simply made the comparision to what occured in TWI and why, and what seems to be happening to CES. However, if you go back to PFAL, if you go back to what Jesus taught, if you go back to the O.T., and likewise in the Epistles we are told to obey God not men. Likewise, it tells us pride goes before a fall. When we get caught up in wanting, needing, or believing we are somehow more spiritual, possess special knowledge, etc. - that is the pride. The sad thing is we are all special. But we aren't special because we have some speacial knowledge or power. We are special because each one of us is unique.

The original Grinch cartoon is my all time favorite, followed by Charlie Brown Christmas. Then there is the orginal Rudolph, the original Frosty and the original claymation Christmas one with how Santa came to be. I have all of them on tape or cd, so the kids would not be deprived growing up and could see what good Christmas specials really are.

Man, Galen and Shellon. Here's my personal story regarding "the system" or at least, the one I am willing to share on a public forum. My mom, though I love her, was a far far cry from an ideal mother. For the most part, she left the three of us kids to raise ourselves. My dad still talks about the people from the opposite side of town (not the wrong side, just the far side) who would call them to let them know one of us kids was at their end of town. This when I was under the age of 8. I remember many occassions being left alone at 7 - 10, while she was shopping. I remember her going out (after my parents split) and telling the babysitter to just go ahead and leave at midnight, leaving the three of us home alone for 2 - 4 hours until she returned. I remeber my brother staging a fake b & e one night when we were home alone, in an attempt to get her to come home to us. By junior high, I was mom. She was at school during the day, and worked overnights in a home, sort of like what our wonderful DMiller does. [Mind you, I don't fault her for wanting to go back to school, it was the abandonment of us kids that I fault her for]. It was my job to look after my sister, cook the meals, make sure the house was clean and the laundry was done. By high school, I would go out with my friends and come home at 3 or 4 in the morning and she never even asked me where I had been or what I had been doing. But none of that is even the worst of it. The worst of it was the verbal and emotional abuse that was there from the very beginning. I remember as a very small child wanting to take dance lessons (I had friends who were taking tap dancing and ballet). Her response was that I was too fat to ever be graceful. It was downhill from there. Now, with this background in mind, I tell you that my mother studied psychology and became a social worker. The greatest ironies of all ironies is that she got a job with our community mental health system and her job was to teach people who were on the verge of having the state take their kids away, how to be parents!

Well said, Steve and Linda. Some thoughts I had as I made my way through the madness that is the grocery store, the weekend before Christmas. :blink: It seems to me, CES is where it is today, because its foundation was flawed, just like TWI's foundation was flawed. There were/are no checks and balances in place at the top, to insure those at the top are truly looking after the flock. But even more important is the founding premise. Someone on this thread or another, I'm thinking Dooj or CW, though I could be wrong, talked about the notion that we were going to find keys to the Bible that had long been lost. That we were going to find knowledge that others didn't have. That is pure ego. It is ego that wracked and ruined TWI and hurt so many of its followers, and it is ego that is wreaking havoc in CES and hurting its followers. I'm not saying any or all of us went into it out of ego. Some may have, I'm betting most did not. When I got involved with TWI, I was young, lost, bedraggeled, beaten, and shamed (emotionally and spiritually). I was looking for answers about God, I was looking for direction, I was looking for love, forgiveness, and acceptance. I thought I found all of those things rolled into one organization. However, over time ego did step in. I did begin to feel I was special, called out to God, filled with a knowledge and power that most of the world didn't know. At least, I felt that way for a time. Eventually, those with a "higher standing"/level of authority within the organization once again beat me down and shamed me. In many ways, what they did was far worse though, because they did it in God's name and they did it in much deeper and more harmful ways. The system was set up so that you basically had to climb over people, squash them, to climb the ladder. Those with the biggest egos, the loudest voices, and/or possession of greater charsima made it to the top, the rest were the rungs they climbed on their way up. The other premise, that crept in, if it wasn't there from the beginning, is the idea that we are to obey men rather than God. That those in leadership positions are somehow God's spokespeople and somehow know more about what is best for us than we do. It is a faulty and very dangerous premise. It is dangerous because it feeds into the ego of those who are leaders, and it is dangerous because it teaches the flock to obey men, instead of heeding what God is telling them. That is what I see in the prophesies made about Elizabeth. Ego through and through. How dare anyone think so much of themselves that they could do that to another human being!! There is not a single ounce of meekeness, love, or godliness in that. The same ego that drives the "prophetic council" is the same ego that drove LCM and so many other leaders, as they went on their witch hunt under the guise of "revelation" and "genuine spiritual suspicion". CES will never be a godly organization because faulty premises are promulgated and because it is driven by ego, not love or godliness. They are the same faulty premises of TWI. And no wonder, look where they learned them.

Tried doing that, Bluze, but the video went a little too fast for me. Also, didn't see the file about max users in my registry.