Abigail

No offense taken, Gomer. It takes a bit to get your feet wet here - I was just trying to point you in the direction of a context.

Welcome Gomer, sit down and have a cuppa Java. While you are enjoying your coffee, you might want to peruse the thread called "The Facts". There you will find documents (as opposed to gossip or opinion) from which you can form your own decision. Included among them are prophesies made about Elizabeth L, a letter from Mark G, a letter from John L and a committee meeting document.

I'm an Elmo too - I think I'm going to have to commit suicide now OY too many years with little ones around to think being elmo is good :blink: lol

he has tons of stuff on youtube - we can't get enough of him around here

I like your definition George, in that truths according to your definition, cannot really be debated or argued. The grass is green. We could perhaps debate the exact shade, but there is no debating that it is green. Usually, when I discuss something I believe about God, I state it that way - it is my belief.

I think the title explains itself. "Private" messages. To me, that indicates an understanding that the message is intended to be private. I find the notion that we would need to have a "rule" about this sort of . . . well I can't even come up with a word for it. Now, that being said, I can also understand, even if I don't agree, how someone might be inclined to make a private message public if they feel that the message was threatening or overly aggressive.

That is very sad and frustrating Vegan. Yet, it seems new names are showing up in these threads every day, so someone must be reading, someone must be interested. How many of those someone's are active in CES, I have no idea. I sure hope some are. I also hope they aren't put off from reading the documents and some of the very good posts within these threads, by all of the fighting and mudslinging that is also contained within these threads.

No flaming Y, just some questions. I agree there are figures of speech in the Bible. I have also noticed there is a great amount of disagreement among Christians over which verses are literal and which are figures of speech. How does one determine who has the truth and who doesn't then? Likewise, there are many many people who still read their Bibles, and yet again you will stiff find a large amount of disagreement among them over what it says in numerous places. I tend to think many, probably most of those people who are still reading their Bibles do so because they want to understand, they want to know God, they want to do God's will. So again, how does one determine which group has the truth and which group does not?

I came across this, this morning. It struck me that it might be appropriate for this thread: “Where love rules, there is no will to power; and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.” -Carl Jung In other words, if someone is pushing, manipulating, coercing you to do something, it isn't coming from a place of love and it isn't coming from God.

Not necessarily so, Notta. If I understand Oldies perspective right, the color of my eyes would be factual, not a truth. That was kind of the point of this thread. Language can be a tricky thing, even when we all more or less speak the same one. Certain words have one connotation to one person, and an entirely different connotation to someone else. Words can also change meaning over time, like the word bad meaning good. From a socialogical point of view, the words we use effect the way we think, the way we perceive, because most people think with words (I say most, because some people are visual thinkers - but that is most frequently found among people on the autism spectrum). So, for instance, when we were in TWI we had certain words we never used, other words that had one meaning to us and an entirely different meaning to those outside of TWI. I would guess, CES probably has a bit of its own vernacular as well. Is that correct Oldies?

roflol Lindy

Yeah, you too Oldies. I may disagree with you alot, but that doesn't make you evil incarnate in my eyes. Okay - group hug - lol lol

thanks you guys, you truly are wonderful.

If I may, I got to thinking about what it might feel like to be in JustPassing's shoes right now. The way I see it, there are two possibilities: 1) he/she is committed to CES and is very hurt by all of this, and feels her ministry is under attack or 2) he/she has read all of this and is now starting to question what she was taught, which can be an even more frightening process. So maybe, we could all step back and relax. Start over again. I know I can come on strong sometimes, even when I don't mean to.

It's relative, Raf. It depends on your overhead. It is not like CES is handing out money to the needy, or to science, etc. I understand they do have some giveaways, but they are by no means a non-profit charity either. If I were running a non-profit out of my home, for instance (and I am not saying that CES is operated out of a home), even if I were giving a way free magazines and tapes, $720,000 would buy me some damned nice clothing!

Sorry, Oldies. I really wasn't trying to be tricky. I was simply looking for your point of view. If you reread my opening post, I offered several theories/definitions on truth, with a link to more. I really am curious about how various people understand this word. Here I'll tell you my understanding. I think truth is a relative thing, a matter of perspective. It is fact mixed with how our brain processes the fact, how it mixes it with our past experiences. Not sure that communicates well, but it is the best I can do at the moment.

Sure they do, Hammeroni, because religion is a big money making business. I seem to recall in one of the documents Captain Crunch posted, that CES was getting roughly $60,000 a MONTH from their followers. That's a lotta doe rae me! Hell, my whole family could live comfortably for a year off what they are given in one month!!!!!

Can anything outside of God's Word be Truth, Oldies? My eyes are brown, is that truth or simply fact. If God game me revelation about something, is that truth or fact? If I receive a personal prophesy for someone, is that truth or fact?

Some of you might also find THIS DISCUSSION interesting. Apparently the topic of personal prophesy came up here about a year and a half ago. Also, I can't help but wonder if CES didn't go with this whole personal prophesy business after they saw how much money and attention the GateKeepers were getting from it. Marketing at its finest. :blink:

Thanks Raf. Interesting that is is a reproof Espistle. Interesting that part of the reproof is about the fact that they ALL wanted to be prophets, they ALL had something to say. What is even more interesting however, is that they completely leave out the context, which is "therefore if the whole church is assembled together" not "wherefore if the prophetic advisory committee is assembled together" or not "wherefore when you have a dream, write it down and send it the the prophetic advisory committee". Also, it says, let them speak by two or three, not by 5s and 10s. It goes one to say that the purpose/fruit is to cause one who is unlearned or unbelieving to fall down on his face and worship god. Seems to me the fruit of CES is to slander and lead people away from God Sorry, I am still not buying what CES is selling as personal prophesy.

Okay, thanks Raf. I saw a bunch of scriptural references to old testament prophets and how to determine the true from the false. But I have seen nothing regarding a council of prophets, or a prophetic advisory commitee. My recollection and understanding of prophets was that they were individuals (not groups). In fact, I can only thing of one documented record where a prophet had an "associate" and that is Elija and Elisha. I can think of absolutely no instance where there was a council who spent time sorting through numerous prophesies trying to determine which were true and which were false. Well, I can, but in every instance they were practitioners of idolaty and were NOT working or speaking for God.

Sounds to me like someone in MG camp would like us to shut up, eh? Well, the Word tells us not to be ignorant of the wolves in sheeps clothing and it sounds to me like that is exactly who is running CES. Sounding the alarm is a godly thing, given the circumstances - a word fitly spoken, so to speak. BTW, I am still waiting for someone to show me, chapter and verse, where the Bible documents Prophetic Councils or a Prophetic Advisory Committee or for that matter, a committee who is supposed to sort through numerous prophesies to try to determine which are correct and which are error

No, the perfect meatloaf receipte is MY secret

Exactly!