Abigail

I can't remember names, movies, or jokes. I can watch a movie, thoroughly enjoy it, and by the next day I won't remember what it was called or what it was about. Of course the good news is, I never mind it if someone rents a movie I've already seen. :D Likewise, Sushi can tell me the same jokes over and over again and I am never bothered by it, because I can't remember the punch line, no matter how many times I've heard it before. On the other hand, I can remember songs - the melody, the words, the voices. I can hear one or two words of a song and know who did it. I can even usually (and this would be the exception to the name thing) tell you who sings it.

I suspect you are correct. Traditionally, Judaism does not spend a lot of time and focus on esoteric/spiritual issues. The main focus is on how to live our lives in the here and now, how to make our community and world a better place. There are pockets that are more esoteric - the Chabad, for example. But even there, the moral values that come from the spiritualistic tales still come down to how we can practically work toward bettering our community and world. Perhaps that is one of the reasons it appeals to me so much. There is room to debate the esoteric, but most would agree we simply have opinions and no proven fact. I like the practical - and the freedom to decide what truly is or is not practical for my family.

Maybe. Or maybe nothing did. Maybe it is the point being made that is of import, not a literal understading. In Luke, perhaps the point is simply that we need to focus on how we are living our lives right now, and not get too caught up spending our time thinking about what will be in the next life. The question posed to Jesus in Luke, afterall was really meant to try and trip him up and does not come across as someone honestly searching for truth. In Romans, perhaps the point is simply that we are all God's children. Not necessarily a change or a contradiction - simply a different lesson.

I have known a number of people on welfare. I've never known any who were living in brand new apartments. I have known some who are very resourceful and have found ways to get nice clothing, computers, tv's etc. But they weren't cheating the system - they were simply doing what you, I, or any other person working or not could do. They found good bargains at the salvation armies in the wealthier districts. They utilized freecycle and took the things someone else simply wanted to get rid of. Again, I don't view that as cheating the system. Nor do I think someone should be penalized and live without nice things if they are offered for free by someone who no longer wants them, simply because they are poor. I have decent livingroom furniture for the first time in years, because someone else was giving it away for free and I happened to be fortunate enough to respond first to their offer. I now have a decent kitchen table via the same method. Likewise, I have been able to save lots of money in the past, and get very nice name brand clothing for my family, by waiting until the end of a season and buying the clearance items for 75% off. I just bought the boys two new winter coats for $10 each on clearance. One size too big now, but will fit them fine next winter. Now, I don't get welfare. But if I had managed to do such things while on welfare, I wouldn't call that cheating the system, I would call it spending wisely - something anyone can chose to do, or not.

I have been going over this thread, trying to find this post, because I've been wanting to respond. I don't doubt there are people who cheat the system, people who are dishonest. But I wanted to point something out with respect to collecting welfare and getting charity help from churches at the same time. First, I recognize the system is different from state to state, so I can only really speak to how things work in my state, because that is what I know. If you live in Michigan on welfare, you truly are subsisting at best. The allotted food stamps will not feed your family for a month, especially if you want to feed your family nutricious meals to keep them healthy, instead of processed high carb foods which will cause health problems down the road. So, food banks and such go a long way toward helping people who are on the welfare system. Likewise, if you receive cash assistance - unless you are living in subsidised housing (which usually has a waiting list of 1 - 2 years) you aren't receiving enough to pay the rent and utilities - so again, private organizations fill the gap. I don't see that as cheating the system, I see that as survival. It is not the same thing as not claiming wages or making money selling drugs while on welfare.

I believe it becomes generational, I think some lack the inspiration or gumption - because of our societal values. Our economic background determines social standing, not who we are as a person but how much money we or our parents make. It starts as a child in elementary school, when the kids who come from a higher socieo (sp) ecnomic background, who live in a better neighborhood, are not allowed to play with the poor kids who live in a not so good neighborhood. When not just parents, but even teachers (not all, but certainly some) will give more attention and praise to those who come from wealthier backgrounds. I faced those issues as a child. My children face them as well. One of the reasons I have kept them in an inner city school (charter, but still inner city) is because I wanted them to be exposed to and become friends with kids from all backgrounds. There is a price for that lesson as well, unfortunately. Those children who grow up "on the system" who are able to participate in scouts, mentoring programs, big brother big sisters, various afterschool programs, are less likely to repeat the cycle and turn it into a generational problem. Those kids who cannot, often end up lacking the educational assistance they need to get ahead. They lack the positive reinforcements they need to develop a good sense of self esteem. They lack the exposure (and by exposure I mean the opportunity to develop lasting friendships) to kids who will be successful. These are the kids who often end up, due to peer pressure, wasting their teen years stoned and drunk, thus making the opportunity for college and a way out even more difficult.

Quite possibly, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" is my favorite series of books.

Starbird, it is interesting that you view Judaism as the first religion and then move from that to Adam, Eve and Satan. You might be interested in knowing that Judaism does not believe in the Devil, even remotely. At least, not even remotely akin to how Christians believe in the Devil. The concept of Satan and the Devil is very much figurative in Judaism.

I know Belle, you are wonderful. :) And you really hit the nail on the head. It is, by and large, the catching up from being a single mom that has made this so difficult. It was using credit cards to put food on the table and buy clothing for my kids, during all those years of no child support, that left me with credit card debt I have never been able to get from underneath of - despite paying above the minimum payments whenever I could. I was finally reaching a place where I thought I was beginning to see the light of day when all of this occured and now I am right back to using credit cards to put food on the table and clothes on the kids. But, and perhaps this is the thing that some of you are talking about that angers you so much - unlike those who would abuse the system - we will find a way to get through without the system, because we simply have no choice. We will sell one of the cars, we will move to an apartment, we will give up some of the luxaries that even some of those on the system seem to manage to have and we will keep a roof over our heads and food on the table. If it bankrupts me - well at least then I will get a new start. But it does anger me - having paid into that system for so many years, to be unable to get help in return for a few months. In the end, my children will learn that there is more to life than a game system (something I have always refused to buy anyway) and they will learn that a family does what it has to in times of need. And, in the end, this too shall pass and there will be brighter days down the road.

Is this the post you were refering to that no one responded to? Because, quite obviously, although you do not see a need for this discussion, the number of people participating would indicate others do. Such a discussion could have many benefits. It could help someone who has been raped, it could help someone who is currently being raped. It could help us to think through what truly constitutes rape and maybe eventually help motivate a change in legislation. For instance, I think tagging a 17 or 18 year old boy for having consensual sex with a 15 or 16 year old as a sex offender, is criminal on the part of our legislators. It could help women think about the dangerous situations they have put themselves in, in the past - perhaps one or two will rethink their behavior and choices and make wiser decisions in the future. It could help women who have been raped or verbally, emotionally, and "spiritually" coerced into having sex with their spouse realize they are not alone in what they went through. It could help the men and women undertand the perspectives of the opposite sex a little bit better. I am wondering why this discussion seems to bother you so much?

Kathy, first and foremost I want to make it clear that from my perspective, our friendship is not threatened by this discussion nor what could be a difference of opinion within it. In fact, I would agree that getting married with the full intent of not having sex with your partner is very bizzar at best - unless the partner knows ahead of time that is what he/she is getting into. If the latter is the case there is mutual consent to that arrangement. However, it is my guess that few women go into a marriage not wanting to have sex with their partner. Those who do, may very well have issues that require the assistance of a psychologist or physician. Likewise, I agree with you regarding those who falsely accuse someone of rape - within or outside of a marriage. They do a great disservice not only to the men they have accused, but to the women who really have been raped. I initially stayed out of this discussion because it is such a personal and emotionally charged one for me, chosing instead to answer via PM to those I had something to say. However, the post of one particular person really moved me, because it was so much like my own experience. That person seemed to be getting little support or understanding, and so I decided to offer some of both publicly. Likewise, because TWI (at least in the latter years) shoved "due benevolence" and "your body is not your own" down the throats (and other organs) of women - it is really a trigger phrase - at least for me. The way those verses were used by leadership and SOME husbands was very very very damaging to SOME women and marriages. So yes, on one level I agree to go into a marriage knowing full well you don't want to have a sexual relationship with your spouse is a terrible thing to do, unless your spouse knows ahead of time that is the arrangment. However, to have sex out of guilt, duty, or obligation is also damaging not only to the person who is doing it, but to the person on the receiving end as well - because it will damage the overall relationship at some point in time. At least, that is my opinion. Perhaps I am wrong in that view - but I view sex as the most intimate and personal of acts between a man and a women. I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. Peace to you, my friend.

I think here, the question does need to be asked and discussed. Kathy, you know I think the world of you, but this whole due benevelonce thing makes me want to puke my guts out. TWI used it to shame and guilt women into sex. They used it to teach men they had a right to force himself on his wife (afterall, once married your body is not your own). I would think, if a marriage is good, neither "due benevelonce" or "your body is not your own" would ever be something that needed to be discussed. The sexual relationship (barring physical ailment) would be good. When 'due benevelonce' is not occuring, it is a symptom of a marital problem - whatever that problem is, needs to be fixed THEN the due benevelonce will be fixed too. It doesn't work the other way around. You can fake it - you can go through the motions, but you no longer having lovemaking. All you have is one, or maybe two, people getting their rocks off. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what the two people want, but I would think within the context of a marriage, people would want more than that - at least most of the time.

I don't think most women "withhold sex" from their husband for revenge. They may withhold sex because their husband has treated them badly, and thus they are not in the mood. They may withhold sex because they are exhausted from taking care of kids and home. They may withhold sex because the relationship is in trouble and they are not feeling romantically inclined. They may withhold sex for hundreds of other reasons, which I think may very well be valid. Women and men view sex very differently - and they are aroused by different things. Are there women who withhold sex for revenge? probably. But even that doesn't justify rape. Likewise, no, means no, means no - even if you are falling down drunk and half naked in a man's bedroom. That being said, one does hold some responsibility for their actions and it would be very very foolish to put yourself in such a situation. I'm not saying such a woman gets what she deserves, but she certainly wasn't very wise either.

The minimum wage must be very high where you live! A minimum wage job here would gross you about $204 a week. After the govenment takes their share your looking at about $174 a week. Certainly not enough to pay rent and utilities, transportation, and food! Heck even 2 full-time minimum wage jobs wouldn't support a family of 3 in our state. Maybe he was upset because he figures very soon he won't have a home to call his own.

When you work you also pay taxes, which may for welfare and social security disability benefits. The same logic then applies. I get the beef some have. I know there are people who take advantage of the systems. However, no one is getting rich by taking advantage of those systems. Living on welfare or social security disability is no way to life. I know somone who is disabled. He gets roughly $450 a month in disability. He lives on a campground because that was all he could afford. I have used welfare - food stamps for about 3 months, medicaide insurance for the kids for a year or so. My kids are now back on medicaide too and I don't feel guilty about it, I am relieved they are covered. I have worked since I was 15. I've never been unemployed for more than a month or two. Sushi has also always worked. Now he can no longer work in the field he has worked in for many years. He has no real transferable skills. He doesn't qualify for unemployement because he is physically unable to perform the job he had. He doesn't qualify for disability because although he is disabled from his current field of employment, he is not completely disabled. Michigan does not have programs for retraining (which would be the ideal way to get people out of the system). We do not qualify for any assistance other than the insurance for the kids - nothing for us adults, not even insurance. He has prescription medications, which we will have to figure out how to pay for. If he is very lucky, he will find a minimum wage job (the last job he applied for, had 400 other applicants) and will qualify for grants so he can go back to school or he will find a minimum wage job and stick with it for about a year until he is cleared to drive again - IF he is cleared to drive again. I have been robbing peter to pay paul, and will likely soon file bankruptcy - which means the citizens will pick up the tab, even though it won't be through the system my taxes have paid for for nearly 25 years. Those of you who get angry about those who abuse the system . . . Can you begin to imagine how angry I am, that I have paid for that system for 25 years, and now that I need to use it temporarily, I cannot?? Rocky is right on the money (ha). Help people go to school so they can get off the system, help them train for a job that will pay the bills. What if we required the CEO's who make billions of dollars to put something more into the system?? Or to at least pay their employees a living wage?

You will note, Hap, that I said a well placed swat on the butt, not a beating. I would rather have my 3 year old feel a swat on the behind than a car on his head. In general I would agree regarding why young children misbehave - tired, hungry, in need of attention. However, there are also times, when WHY they are behaving a certain way is not as important as being sure they are safe. Toddlers and young children do not understand the dangers our world presents. Nor do parents always have a free hand to hold them with. For instance, I remember when my older son was a toddler. The first word he ever spoke was "hot". I used to tell him "don't touch it's hot" regarding the stove, the tail pipe of a recently turned off car, whatever it was that caught is very very curious mind that was too hot to touch. One day, his father had just finished cutting the grass, and Aaron walked up to the lawnmower, curious as ever. His dad said, "don't touch it, it is hot." Well Aaron didn't really know what hot meant, and sure enough he touched it and learned the hard way. Second degree burn, painful but not life threatening. However, some things are life threatening and a swat on the butt is a much better consequence in such situations.

More insanity from our government. A child much over the age of 4 would rarely need a spanking. By 6 or 7 they are old enough that other consequences are often more effective. A child 4 and under, on the other hand, knows no reason. You can't take away their phone, tv, or computer privileges - well you can, but it will be meaningless to them. You can't "ground them" - again meaningless. It is precisely the age group they are banning spankings from that are most likely to benefit from a well placed swat on the behind.

You just HAD to tell me that, didn't ya Radar! I love eggplant - my family hates it. I was hoping with some of these new recipes I could encourage them to eat it more often. Now you go and tell me I shouldn't eat it more often.

I never watched an episode of American Idol until this season. I saw my first one, from beginning to end, last week. I must admit, I did get a really good laugh that brought tears to my eyes at one point. Of course I later felt guilty for laughing at those poor delusional people who think they are idol material when they so clearly are not. Overall, I'd say watching American Idol is like gawking at a really bad car accident. It is truly horrible and grotestque, yet you are compelled to look anyway. I can't wait until House returns to Tuesday nights!!!

Oh my! Poor Sushi. I say that because I'm picking up lots of eggplant next time I shop so I can try out these recipes!!!!!

Oh my, there you hit a sore spot for me, for sure! As a number of you know, for health reasons, Sushi is no longer able to drive a semi and is now looking for a new job. At this point, for us the salary isn't nearly as much of an issue as the medical benefits. He was trying for a factory job - the pay sucked, most certainly not anywhere near a living wage, nor near what he previously earned, but the benefits were great. There were approximately 400 people applying for this low paying job!!! No, we don't need to import more workers!!! And I say the argument that Americans won't do the low paying jobs is absolute BS!

I think socioeconomic background plays a much bigger role than race - though I do think Mo brought up some thought provoking points about heritage as well. I'd take it beyond socioeconomic though - to parental supervision. Sure, the rich kids are far less likely to join street gangs, but left to raise themselves they can be equally destrucive and dangerous. You just don't hear about it as often because the parents can afford to buy their kids out of trouble. I see the kids in school with my kids (elementary aged) and it isn't hard to predict which ones are more likely to end up going down bad roads and which ones are least likely too. Sure, no guarantees either way - but the odds go up or down exponentially depending on how involved the parents are in their lives - what the parents are teaching them.

I could be mistaken, but if CES is a non-profit, it seems to me the minutes from the board meeting would be subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Someone could simply write a letter requesting them under FOIA.

aw, thanks everyone.

.Yeah, what upset God is that He looked down into the kitchen and there was not a stew in the oven, and the spice rack was in disarray, and God said "I will smote them!" to paraphrase Lewis Black FOUND HERE if you want to hear it all.