Abigail

I just have to jump off topic long enough to say Roy, I am really enjoying your sense of humor. I hope you will show us more of it.

One of the differences between Judaism and Christianity (at least more fundamental branches of Christianity) is that Judaism teaches that all people are God's. Christianity (at least fundamental branches of Christianity) teach that only those "born again" or "in the body" are God's.

Here's the thing though. I was able to do what I did because I was mad, I was amused, and I was afraid. I was mad because at that point I was pretty darned sure I had been had. I don't like being conned, not out of money and most definitely not out of 10 years of my life. I was amused, because I knew they would be afraid. They lied, liars are always afraid. And I too was afraid. I had that little nagging doubt, pestering me, "what if they were right and I was wrong?" I had to face that fear and find out. I couldn't spend the rest of my life with that fear eating away at me.

I am Jewish, teachme. And I am not messianic. Does that sum it up? I tossed all that spirit stuff. My fruit is good. That isn't bragging, those who know me would say the same. I am a good person. Yet, I have friends who are Christian, their fruit is good also. Hence my questions to you regarding who is in and who is out and how do you tell.

Not too long after I left, I foisted a close encounter upon them. They were telling people I had taken a break and was coming back. The branch coordinators even told a friend of mine I had been invited to their son's open house and would likely attend. Of course, I never received my invitation, but seen as how I heard it had been extended, I decided to show up. The fear on their faces was worth the trip. :) They knew that I knew, they knew I had been on the internet. They were terrified I'd take others out with me. I didn't have to, they managed to do that all on their own. :) My twig coordinators' had a son same age as my oldest. Both boys played soccer on different teams. One night the two teams were playing each other and there they were, acting like they didn't see me. I walked up and said hello, asked them how they were. They squirmed. Never saw them at a game after that, even though the two teams played several more against each other. Of course, that was all a long time ago. I haven't run into anyone still in TWI in probably 8 years now. Not sure if TWI even has anyone left in this area.

You think so? Am I in or out?

Yup. The entire thing was designed to keep us in submission and keep the money rolling in. Now, I refuse to pay homage to any man. Submission did not come naturally to me back then and now I just don't do it at all.

is anybody else is the body? How do you decide who is in and who is out?

Who are the teachers and preachers of the body? Who are the body?

I have seen those studies too, Waysider! TWI took everything to extremes. The Bible says things should be in moderation, but there was absolutely no moderation in TWI.

Soul Searcher, There is no one right way. Everyone has to find their own way.

Not everything TWI taught was wrong or bad. In fact, I would say they had a lot of principals for living a good and decent life right. Where they really, really blew it was in how they applied those principals, in how rigid they became. For instance, take the law of believing. The basic concept isn't bad. There is nothing wrong with picturing yourself accomplishing something and then taking action to meet that goal. However, there is something very wrong with condemning someone for no "believing big enough" to get healed without the help of a doctor. Speaking in tongues. Well, basically harmless as long as it isn't interfering with your ability to function in life. Personally, I no longer pratice it and I am not convinvced it is genuine, but still . . . harmless if it isn't hurting anything or anyone. So, some find their way to new churches. Some become agnostic, some athiest. Some re-research what they were taught, keep some things and toss others.

For some, going to church is a wonderful thing. It offers community, a place to worship, a place to study, a place to give. However, I don't believe there is anything in the Bible that requires one to attend church. I go to the synagogue when I am moved to do so. I am far more centered around my family, my immediate community and my friends. I am not particularly comfortable with joining a religious organization. Been there, done that. I have no desire to build my sense of community, my friendships, etc. upon little more than a common belief system. I want more common ground with my community. I want more diversity in my life. I want exposure to vastly differing opinions and beliefs. I also do not want to feel contrained to a particular doctrine. I do not want to fear expressing a differing point of view regarding God, morals, ethics, rituals, etc. That said, when I first left TWI, I attended a Vinyard Church for a time. I chose it specifically because I had already met the minister and he knew of TWI, what they were about, what they taught, etc. I was somewhat comfortable there, because I didn't have to explain my background, it was already understood. It was a very peaceful experience for me and I met some very kind people.

Truly to be pittied, if it weren't all so harmful to the lives of those who get sucked in. Which is why I have been so outspoken where our friend Mr. Trimm is concerned. Normally, I tend to be too empathatic and careful of other people's feelings. I'm sure James is a human being not entirely different from most of us. I have seen he has a sense of humor. I am sure he has feelings and they can be hurt. I would assume there are people who care about him and who he probably cares about in return. At this point, maybe he even does believe his own schtick. But, none of that changes the fact that what he is doing is potentially hurtful to a great many people, if they too buy his schtick. Not because I have doctrinal differences with him. I have doctrinal differences with most of my friends. It is harmful because he puts himself out as someone who can lead, yet he lacks integrity, honesty, etc.

Not to completely derail your thread, but the whole renewed mind is a cult tactic. It was used to get us to do things (or not do things) even when everything inside us screamed it was wrong. It was a way to convince us we needed to ignore that still small voice inside of us, no matter how loud it got. When did Martidale remove the in the household part? That must have happened after I left. Many of their definitions were twisted beyond comprehension. Again, a cult tactic. What exactly does it mean to love someone in the renewed mind in manifestation? It is a bunch of gobbly gook invented so we would have to rely on THEM to tell us what it meant.

Sad, what happens to the con man when he buys his own con. You think that is how Martindale sees it too?

Cool.

Yeah, yeah yeah, and just because VPW raped people it didn't guarantee his work was flawed. We've heard these arguments before too James. You are going to have to come up with something more original. I lost interest in your research claim when it became apparent you were selling it. When it became apparent you weren't interested in having a discussion with anyone, because you already knew it all. I called you out on your legalism in the doctrinal forum and in response you decided you weren't going to discuss doctrine there anymore. I called you out by contradicting your claim that Jewish people were required to go to the Synagogue every sabbath.

Okay, well forwarned is forearmed, etc. Nevermind that he calls himself Rabbi. Nevermind that he is another huckster with a "doctorate" from a non-accredited college. Nevermind that he calls his "academic journal" peer reviewed when in fact it has not been reviewed by anyone. Nevermind that he has appointed himself the 16th president of the Nazarenes (a sect that hasn't exited in 1,864 years give or take), much like Vic was going to teach us the word like it hadn't been taught since the first century). Nevermind that he and two of his buddies claim to be running a Yeshiva (Jewish School) even though he never even graduated from a Jewish Seminary. Is any of this starting to sound familiar to you Lovematters? The fact that he has had a run-in with TWI does not mean he is full of honesty and integrity. And yes, he is free to talk about whatever he wants to talk about. And I am free to expose his con for what it is, unless the moderators decide to tell me otherwise. And you are free to think of James how you choose to. You are free to look at the links that readily expose his con and dismiss them or you are free to ignore them altogether.

Perhaps, James, it is because you lie and manipulate? It isn't your doctrine that is in question, it is your integrity. If you lack integrity in promoting your work, odds are you lacked integrity when you were doing your work. Thus, odds are very, very good that your work is flawed. Simimlarly, if you lack integrity your doctrine is also flawed. And because they are both dealing with religion they are to some extent intertwined.

Oh, don't be too shocked, Twinky. Afterall, it isn't any different from what VPW claimed when he said he was going to teach us The Word like it hadn't been taught since the first century. I'm sure somewhere out there are a bunch of very gullible and somewhat misdirected teenagers who will swallow James' b.s. too. Although, VPW did have an advantage in that the internet didn't yet exist when he started his little cult. James is going to have a difficult time overcoming that part. Especially given the ever growing wealth of information out there exposing his con. My bad. That's right you started your first cult in 1996, got kicked out and then started this one in 2007. Hard to keep up with all the cons you've pulled James.

That it might be, James. But at what cost? If sticking TWI in the eye means participating in the dishonesty and manipulation you have perpetrated here and elsewhere on the internet . . . . well I'd call that jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Well, at least he finally admits he is operating outside the academic realm, despite his frequent claims otherwise. He likewise admits HE (and his two buddies) decided they were the successors. Gee. . . . if I decide to appoint myself as the successor of the Apostles, does it make it so? Also, I think the date is interesting. 1996 was when he and his buddies "reorganized" the Beit Din. That just so happens to be the same year the previous Beit Din he built got sick of him and disfellowshipped him. See James, I can do research too. :D

Well, I'm good thanks. I just didn't want you to take it too personally if some of the skepticism bled over onto you. If my memory is correct you have been around the cafe off and on for some time now. Some people may not know that and may assume you are trying to help James with his con job. I would just like to point out, for those who don't generally go to the 'About the Way' section, that James has now acknowledged that his "academic journal" has not been peer reviewed. If you want more information on that, go read his thread on his "G'MIR" in the About the Way section.