Abigail

I can't tell you what is balance enough for your life, only you can decide that. But again, I go back to the notion that a) we aren't gods and b) it is possible to forgive, love, empathize and still maintain the necessary boundaries to protect your self, to take care of yourself. Some will never recognize and accept the boundaries you set for yourself. There will always be people who want to move your boundries. If you hold them fast, those people will be hurt, angry, they will blame you, instead of respecting and understanding you. From my perspective, when someone pushes me after I have politely asked them to respect my boundaries, it tells me they have no care or concern for me - that their wants and needs are selfish and will mostly likely cause me harm. That is one of my first flags to walk away from the person. That doesn't mean I don't care about them, it simply means I care enough about myself to take care of myself. Another side to that is, I know my limits. I know there are some people I am not qualified or able to help. I do them a disservice if I lead them to think I can offer them assitance, healing, whatever, when I cannot.

I think, in telling the story over again, it helps reduce the sting, it starts to have less power in your life. It also can help you gain perspective and understanding, particularly if you are discussing it with other people who have had similar experiences and there is a give and take dialogue going on. Beyond that, in this particular forum - because it played such a huge and traumatic role in the lives of so many who were involved in TWI, we often draw on our experience to explain why we have a particular point of view.

I am glad you have stepped away from the roof. I am using your post, but this is to Rainbow too. It isn't about becoming hard, giving up compassion or empathy. It is about healthy boundaries - about loving yourself too. When you truly love yourself, you put boundaries in place regarding what you will and will not allow in your life. You put boundaries in place with respect to how you expect people to treat you, how you expect people to behave in your home, how you expect people to behave in your presence. You draw a line in the sand and you love yourself enough to not allow someone else to cross that line. That doesn't mean you stop loving other people, it simply means you love yourself too. For instance, would I be loving myself, taking care of myself, if I allowed someone to bring drugs in my home possibly jeapordizing my freedom, my right to raise my children? If I set a boundary and I say no, you can't do that, does that have to equate with "I don't love you, I don't empathize with you, I have on compassion for you?" Would I be loving myself/taking care of myself, if I allowed someone else's problem to consume me so totally that I didn't have the time/mental or emotional ability to take care of the things I need to take care of for myself? I would really recommend you do some google researches on healthy boundaries. Not every person has the same boundaries, but it is important to know what your boundaries are and be able to hold them firm.

I can't help but wonder why you would want to accomodate an abuser, Kathy. Really. Okay, someone who was a drunk and physically abused his spouse, but no longer drinks, no longer behaves violently, who is HONESTLY remorseful for his behavior - I think such a person could be accomodated. Someone who was a leader in TWI - who kicked people out for violating the whimsical and often changing doctrine of TWI, who gave face meltings etc., but who has apologized and is truly remorseful and changed - again I think such a person could be and has been accomodated. Rapists and pedophiles are in another category all by themselves. They have illnesses that our society and our professionals do not know how to treat. They are dangerous people. Part of what makes them so dangerous is because they know exactly how to play on the emotions of people just like you, Kathy. People who have already have issues knowing and keeping their own boundaries (not an accusation, simply a restatement of what you said earlier). There is not a single person at the cafe, IMO, who is qualified to help a rapist or pedophile. There are, however, a number of people here who could easily become the victim of one, and a number who already have been. If this place exists at all to help people, then let us help those we are actually capable of helping. Lets not further expose people to the very abuses and abusers who may have already caused them so much pain. .

Also true, Pond. But I will not pretend I understand or know anything much about another poster's boundaries or lack thereof, beyond what I may observe in this oftentimes one dimensional forum. On the other hand, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that someone who will molest a child will encroach upon another person's boundaries.

I am not certain there is a set rule for these forums regarding an abuser - I guess Paw or one of the mods would have to speak to that. Likewise there are different types, levels, and definitions of abuse. This is the first time in all my years at greasespot I have seen a confession of this nature. I don't even know if any of this was prompted by the mods and/or if they have told Anoth he cannot come back.

This isn't about outrage and hurt for me as a victim of abuse, you are reading into it or I am not communicating clearly. This is about healthy boundaries.This isn't about heaping shame on the mentally ill, you know very well I have loved ones who are mentally ill. This is about healthy boundaries. No, no one expects me to invite this pedophile over for dinner. No, this person cannot hurt me or my children directly in any way shape or form. But this is NOT the proper forum, this place which is so full of people who have issues stemming from sexual abuse, this place so full of people who have boundary issues stemming from years in TWI. I will not participate in any way shape or form in watching a predator be given free reign and open access to prey on people under the guise of love and forgiveness. This isn't about love and forgiveness, it is about healthy boundaries. Imagine this, Oen, imagine just one of our loving, compassionate and empathetic posters allows this man into their life. They buy his story, they forgive him. Slowly, over months, maybe even a year or two, this man gains their trust and eventually entry to their physical life. Imagine this poster has children . . . even if he didn't molest one of their children, many states now have laws about "failure to protect". In other words, if a poster here allowed this man to have contact with their child, depending on what state they live in, said poster could lose custody of their child for failing to protect them from a known sex offender. You know why such laws exist? Because our government expects parents to do their job and protect their children from such people. Our state also recognizes some people, for many many reasons, fail to protect their children from known sex offenders. by his own words, his courage to make these steps was cooerced. Someone, be it a Greasespot administrator, a probation officer, or some other law enforcement official REQUIRED that he post his crime if he were to be allowed to remain here.

You assume Lucifer is the Devil because TWI said it was so. Hebrew scholars would tell you differently. Perhaps a good subject for the doctrinal form sometime.

You don't have to be hardened, I am not. On the contrary, over the years I have been told by people I need to toughen up. I have had people tell me I am very empathetic. There is a difference between being hardened and drawing hard and firm boundary when a situation requires you too. It isn't that I couldn't sympathize or empathize (though honestly this guy's posts are so riddled with excuses and justifications that I don't feel that for him), it is that I will not allow sympathy or empathy toward one person to override wisdome and safety for another. Boundaries, Kathy, that is what it is about. Healthy boundaries require us to not allow certain people access to our lives. I view pedophelia as mental illness. Some people who are mentally ill, either only mildly or who are receiving proper treatment, are okay to allow into our lives. Some people who are mentally ill are not safe to allow into our lives. We had an issue at our school a few weeks back where a parent physically attacked a teacher, the dean of students, and our superintendent. She threw the teacher to the ground and proceeded to kick the living you know what out of her, right in front of her children, my children, and countless other children. The parent is mentally ill and after being arrested was involuntarily committed for a time. Her children are living with a relative and temporarily under the supervision of protective services. Our school took out a no tresspass order as a result of this incident, so the woman cannot come back on our grounds even if she does regain custody of her children. One of the board members suggested we should reach out to this parent - should somehow find a way to improve relations with her, find a way to work with her. I vehemently opposed this idea. This woman is mentally ill, I can sympathize with her, I can empathize with her. I can hope she gets well and I can pray for her. But NO WAY will I expose my children or anyone else's children to the possiblity that they may have to witnsssss such actions again, or worse yet, be the victim of them. It is the same in this instance. I will not give room in my life to a person who has hurt a child and then justifies it by minimizing and blaming. Nor am I qualified to assist such a person. They used to refer to such people as criminally insane. Now we just feel sorry for them and unleash them back into our society to hurt more people.

Boundary hoppers and predators. Here is what I have learned from my first hand experience with a sexual predator, along with my reading on how to protect my children. 1. First and foremost, they are boundary jumpers. Not all boundary jumpers are sexual predators, but all sexual predators are boundary jumpers. Anytime someone pushes your boundaries/fails to respect your boundaries, you are dealing with someone, who in that circumstance, is far more interested in their own want/need/desire than they are in who you are as a person. If you allow your boundary to be moved, you have just informed them that they can test the waters and push them back even further. Many will continue to slowly move your boundaries back further and further unless and until you finally very firmly put your foot down. Not entirely different from the way a child will test the rules and limits you set for them. 2. Predators are often appealing, at least initially. They can be charming and charismatic, they may play on your sympathies and other emotions. One thing most predators have in common, they are very very good at reading people - finding their weak spots and using them to their advantage. [Hence - I aplogize to those of you who suffered sexual abuse, even at the hands of VPW. Hence - I am writing this because my conscience compells me to . . . . and yet later he acknowledged he posted this information because someone else compelled him to.] 3. Predators blame their victims. [Hence sexually aggressive children] 4. Predators downplay their crime. 5. Predators maximize their own suffering . If you think I am wrong about those markers - do your own research, see for yourselves. This guy still shows all the markers of a predator. If you want to welcome him into your lives, that is your choice. Personally, I will walk away from this forum and never come back before I will allow such an individual to have access to my life.

That would be between him and God, I suppose. But from where I am sitting, a website that is frequented by women who were sexually abused by clergy and leadership as young adults and/or teens is NOT the forum for it. thanks, Eyes, but trust me, on this issue I am NOT emotionally vulnerable. I have spoken out against this person's presence here, and will continue to do so for as long as necessary. This is one issue where banning would definitely be the only way to silence me. Yes and no, Kathy. I know both of you well enough to be pretty confident you wouldn't give out your names and phone numbers - that you are capable of drawing a line in the sand and refusing to let someone cross it. But there are others here, I don't know so well. Others here who may appear less vulnerable than they really are. Rainbow - I wanted to say, I have not ignored your post about your daughter. I have simply been at a loss for words. That you and your daughter could even have such a conversation breaks my heart - yet that the two of you have a relationship such that you are capable of such a conversation is a beautiful thing.

No, it never is in the beginning. But predators know how to take a small crack in the door and slowly push that door open wider and wider. IF there had been something akin to genuine remorse in the initial post, IF said predator had accepted full responsibility, instead of blaming "sexually aggressive children", IF said predator had minimized his own suffering via a legal sentence instead of minimizing the pain he may have caused a child . . . THEN maybe there could be a very very narrow margin for dialogue. But that is not what happened here. You might feel differently if you had a child who had been molested by a pedophile. Yes, while blaming the victim at the same time. Do you think you can heal him of what countless professionals still don't know how to effectively treat? His story doesn't make a difference. Many people who were physically, mentally, sexually abused did not grow up to be pedophiles. Some do. Others who never suffered abuse also sometimes become pedophiles. Do you think hearing of how he suffered as a child, was beaten by his father, etc. will heal those here who were sexually abused? Or will it perhaps only further their natural instinct to empathize, leaving them even more suseptible to further abuse by a known predator? Personally, if I want to understand the mind of a pedophile (and I've already come as close to understanding the twisted thoughts of such as I ever want to) I will look to professionals who have studied the issue in depth, not the story of one who still justifies and minimizes his crimes. Feel sorry for them. Don't hate them. Forgive them if you can and/or need to. But don't give them entry into your life again! Not ever, not in person, not here, not an inch.

Yeah, I have unresolved issues. I will continue to have unresolved issues for as long as our legal system continues to allow pedophiles back out on the streets where they can continue to victimize more innocent children. Actually, I am suprised you are even allowed internet access, but only a little. I also have unresolved issues toward pedophiles who blame children for being "sexually aggressive", who minimize the crime they committed and the hurt it may have caused. Your confession was laden with excuses - THAT is what I have issues with.

You can recover, but you are also changed. Beyond that, Kathy, while I have my ideals, I am also realistic. Reality, no matter how much we may dislike, is that at this juncture in our society, people who commit sex crimes against children are very very likely to repeat those crimes. So again, for me it isn't even an issue of forgiveness, it is an issue of boundaries and safety. No, it is NOT calling God a liar. Whether God choses to forgive or heal is God's business. Whether I chose to forgive is mine. I don't have the power to heal such a person. While I understand your feelings in this regard, please understand that I just have absolutely no concern at all for what those in TWI think of me or Greasespot. Beyond that, they will think badly of this place regardless of how we behave. Again, I would agree with you regarding this i probably 99% of the time. However, this guy doesn't LOOK like an abuser, he IS an abuser or at the very least was. From his posts, I'm betting on is. This will sound very arrogant I am sure. But it is because so many of you are quick to offer empathy and sympathy that I "lunge" in the manner I have on this thread. I can't protect any of you - you are all adults who have to make your own decisions. However, I can point out what is written in black and white. That this guy downpays his crime, minimizes the hurt he caused his victim, makes statements that could lead one to conclude it is quite possible there was more than one victim, and in the process plays his own "victim card." You all can chose to ignore those huge red flags, you're adults, its your life. But I feel compelled to point them out so at least you are making an informed choice.

Isn't that so lovely - he had plenty of opportunity to sexually abuse before his original offese, by children who were sexually aggressive - it was THEIR fault, not his. Oh, and obviously you DID break down that boundary - or are you saying it was the 9 year old girl who broke down that boundary? that it was HER fault you "only" fondled her? Original offense - tends to imply there was more than one. Yes, be armed with information to protect your kids. There are some great books out there. I strongly recommend "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin De Becker. He is a former FBI agent and has much experience in this area. A child molester can be your brother, a police officer, a rabbi, a priest. He will help you look for clues - starting with those who push the boundaries of others. His book will help you teach your children what they need to know, without filling them with fear. Be armed with the facts . . . Statisically, child molesters are NOT cured, they DO repeat their offenses. Statistically, by the time one has been caught, he has already victimized many children. Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out.

Not a problem, Kathy and I am in no way upset with you. But like you, I am passionate about this victim business, and even more passtionate about boundary issues. Let me do a better job of pointing out to you what I mean by the perp claiming victim status and about selfishness . . . First, I would point out that I went through Antho's posts from 2003 and in addition to his probabtion for molesting a child, according to his own posts, he also did time for robbery. But what stands out most of all to me are the following statements: These words do not strike me as the words of someone who is truly remorseful for their actions - they strike me as words to justify and downplay the seriousness of the offense. ONLY fondled her. I wonder if the little girl thinks of it that way? She is only a "little embarrassed"? How would he even begin to know how she feels or what she things? He can only guess, or tell himself this to again downplay what he has done. He speaks of his own humiliation for having to register as a sex offender as if it is far worse the what the little girl suffered. Note also: "only fondled her. But that was enough to be what is considered crossing the line" He doesn't say HE considers it as crossing the line, he merely acknowledges that the courts or our society considered it so. I cannot even begin to guess why this person put this confession on this forum. I cannot even say for certainty this person is telling an ounce of truth or not. But I can say, these words do not strike me one little bit as words of remorse for hurt caused to others.

Well I too have been a victim and I wear no badge because of it. But it did allow me an up close and intimate view of how at least one perpetrator thought and justified his behavior. So, I do not cry poor me, but I will not offer a poor you to a perp either. Especially in light of the post here. Start with the thread name "hard for ME to come clean" then move through the post . . . ' Is he concerned about anyone else here? Or simply his own conscience? Does he care that merely his presence here could hurt others, leave others afraid to post? The point? Would any of us think another human being doesn't have sexual desires? Its a justification, a rationalization. I did it because I am a man - I did it because I had a desire. .... - lots of people have desires - lots of men have desires but they don't force themselves on unwilling people, they don't molest children. Sound a bit like a victim card to me? What about the girl who was molested? He says simply he "hears she is doing well" as if that makes it all okay. ..... Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. Either way, his remorse sounds more like an "I am sorry I got in trouble for this" than an "I am sorry I hurt someone". He got three years probation, she had her innocense stolen, perhaps for life. One major trait that will allow an offender to be an offender is selfishness/an overly high focus on self, a lack of concern for the victim. Something to think about Kathy, and I speak boldly to you because we are friends and I care . . . people who have been victims of abuse, sexual or otherwise, often become overly empathetic with other people. Their boundary lines are blurred. Predators who see that empathy in you will take advantage of it. Is Antho still a predator? I can't say for a certainty that he is. But I also can't say for a certainty that he isn't either. I realize this is the internet and he can't jump through his computer and "get" me, you, our children, or anyone else if he is never allowed access to our lives outside this forum. But answer me this, would you leave him alone with your daughter? I know I wouldn't. Nor would I invite him into my home or give him any information even remotely personal. Nor would I even give him room in my emotions to feel sorry for him. Why? Because it is all too easy to allow someone who is adquately skilled at it, to play upon your emotions and slowly gain more and more access to your life. In TWI, many probably most of us allowed the leadership to move our boundaries back further and further. Sexual predators do the same thing. A forum full of ex-wayfers is just ripe for a predator who knows how to play on your sympathies. It isn't about forgiveness. Antho has done nothing to me and needs no forgiveness from me. It is about healthy boundaries. It is about not allowing a known predator into my life.

Sorry, but I'm not buying. If I were a moderator here I would have banned you as soon as I saw this post. I may get jumped on for being heartless or unforgiving but there are many men in this world - women too - who have sexual desires and do not cross the line. Being a man, having sexual desires - sounds like you are making excuses, pathetic ones at that. I have no idea if some or any of your story is true. I have no idea what goes on in the mind of a sexual predator, beyond that they find ways to justify their vile behavior to themselves somehow. If you had touched one of my children. . . nope, sorry but I just can't offer forgiveness or understanding. I believe sexual predators are mentally ill, to be sure. I also know most of them are never cured of their mental illness. Some, yes, but most no. No way would I risk allowing one into my life on the small chance they might have truly changed.

Then God in his foreknowledge also knew Paul would repent and change. Saul, btw, paid a steep price for his sins. Yes we all sin, yes God is just and merciful in forgiving our sins. However, we are people, not Gods. Do we do eachother a service if we allow rapist to run free because they may be born again and then forgiven? Obviously, VPW is dead and gone, he cannot rape, take advantage of, or otherwise abuse others. However, his legacy lives on and has been passed down, via his teachings and examples to the inner circle, as evidenced by LCM himself, as evidenced by teachings that eventually became more public and widely acceptable regarding a woman's body and a man's need. Those teachings and the actions that were taken because of them need to be exposed so they are not repeated.

Why "certainly the men who followed him . . . regarded him as a spiritual leader"? I am not sure the Bible says that. I would think the people who followed him thought of him as their king, not their priest or Rabbi. Particularly because David was not a Levite. In any case, I would say no amount of knowledge erases hurting "God's children." Knowledge puffeth up, yes? I am not saying VPW was evil incarnate. I am not even saying everything he taught was wrong. But whatever things he taught accurately, whatever good he did, that does not erase the hurt either. The people who were hurt by him never had a chance for true closure, never received an apology, never had an opportunity to see the man be remorseful for the hurt he caused them. Greasespot is one of the few places they can go, where they can let out that hurt and anger and be comforted and understood by people who understand what they've been through. You may see us as miserable comforters, that is fine and you have a right to your opinion. Other people come here, who have suffered different hurts by others in TWI, and again, this is the place where they can express their pain and anger and be understood. None of that means their whole life is consumed by hurt and anger, regardless of how it may come across in this one dimensional view we often get of each other here on the forums. Just like your stance in these threads does not represent the entire person you are. I know how your husband comes across in these forums sometimes. I have also conversed with him on non-two topics, allowing me to see another aspect of who he is. Regardless of whether you view your TWI experience as mostly bad or mostly good, one common thread most of us share is that our TWI experience was unique. That means, people who didn't experience it will have a difficult time relating to it. This is a place where there are others who can relate to our experiences. I am guessing you are no longer involved with TWI for a reason. Maybe your reasons are very different from mine, but obviously somewhere along the line something went wrong. Like you, I never met VPW. He was dead and gone before I ever even heard of TWI. Judge the man, don't jude the man, makes no difference to me either way. But I can't help but wonder why you would judge so harshly others whom you have also never met, who say they were hurt by him? To offer comfort, understanding, empathy to someone who says VPW hurt them does not mean you have to toss out your entire belief system. If you believe you were taught and are practicing the Word of God, give the glory to God, not Victor Paul Weirwille. It is entirely possible to offer comfort and understanding to those who were hurt, while still holding on to the truthes you believe you received while in TWI. Or do we continue to say "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos?"

from one strongly opinionated person to another, I would hate to see the two Iam's go. I may vehemently disagree with them on some things. I have even read posts by Mr. Iam that really really ticked me off. However, I have also seen the other side. Call them deceived, say they are in denial, whatever. I don't agree with them either. But they aren't evil.

posted in the wrong thread, sorry.

WTH - it always amazes me how much glory and power you attribute to demons and devils, and how little to God. "A patient of the war?" Gimme a break, there is no war. If there is a devil, then said being is still subject to the will of God. God gave MAN free will - I do not see where God gave such to the spirit realm. Does God not say by their fruits you shall know them? Did not VPW himself teach that every lie has some truth? What truthes I have, that may be similar or the same to what VPW taught, did not come from VPW, but God. Maybe you should be asking yourself why place the man on a pedestal. Why follow after man, rather than God. If you got some truth from VPW's teachings, then praise God, not VPW.