Abigail

Going back to your original question. Yeah, TWI needs to be good. If TWI is to live up to its claims that it had the "rightly divided word" or at least more of the rightly divided word than any other ministry on earth - then Yes, it has to be good. There is no logic or reason to the notion that the only ministry with the rightly divided word was lead by a man who committed adultery and rape. There is no logic or reason behind the notion that an all loving, all knowing, all powerful God would subect those who are truly searching for Him to that. I don't buy that VPW was the only man on earth, or even the best man at that time, to bring us all this information that had been "hidden" or "lost" for years. That is just plain crap. I don't buy that there weren't other men or women living in VPW's day, who were hungry for God and who would never for a second consider rape or adultery as acceptable behavior. Some of you can sit back and say "yes, but I got this good thing from TWI - I learned all this really cool stuff." And while you were sitting back and learning all that cool stuff, your sisters were being raped. Not just by VPW, but by others in the ministry as well. The only way it makes sense, is that it wasn't from God at all and if it wasn't from God at all, then people like John and Jean would have to sit down and rethink their belief systems. They would have to acknowledge they were conned. It is much much easier (and lazier) to dismiss those who were abused as liars - to minimize the damage done to their sisters, to pull peole like David out of context and say see, David sinned (never mind that David didn't claim to be THE MAN OF GOD FOR OUR DAY AND TIME - that David didn't claim to be the only person with the "rightly divided word.") They minimize, rationalize and justify because it is the lazy and easy way out - intelectually, emotionally, and spiritually lazy.

Was - was when? his whole entire life? even when he took Bathsheba and had her husband killed? Even when he allowed his daughter to be raped by his son? Well, I suppose if that is the God you chose to worship, that is your free choice. I have no desire to worship a God who cannot find a better way to teach me about him - who would have me endure rape in order to know him. My God is sooo much bigger and better than that. The entire notion that we were lead to a ministry where we would be abused and raped, because a ministry that abuses and rapes is the ONLY place where we could get the rightly divided word is insane.

Apparently not, as several expressed surprise. As for how God judges David, I am sure God will judge David with justice tempered with mercy. But this isn't about eternal life, this isn't about enteral judgement. This is about allowing people to express and work through the pain the endured as the result of a man. Do you think if you deny their pain, if you tell call them liars, seducers, etc. Do you think if you tell them the man that hurt them also did good, you are helping them? Or are you only preserving your own possibly idolatrous (sp) view of the man? this is about whether or not VPW was the "real deal" - which I don't think has really even been specifically defined. Was he a prophet? I'd say, hell no. Was he a teacher? Yeah, he taught. Was what he taught, taught out of love? out of concern? I can't speak with any certainty as to what his motives were in the begining. I can only speak to the result of his ministry - that I am knowledgeable about. I think the few who suffered little were very fortuanate indeed. Sadly, there were many many more who suffered greatly.

Because WE make him a hero of the scriptures. Because we gloss over or ignore entirely what David did. Because in Sunday school we were taught David was a hero and slew Goliath and as adults we cannot reconcile the hero David with the man he eventually became. Because we continue to desire to follow man, to have a man teach us - instead of following God, allowing God to teach us. So we worship the patriarchs, we worship the apostles and we ignore the wrongs that were done. Not unlike those who would continue to ignore the wrongs VPW did. Oh - and the part about for David's sake? God promised David, when he was still young and a hero, that a decendent of David would always sit on the throne of Israel. So, for David's sake - for the sake of the promise made to David, God tolerated much. But eventually, even He could not continue to tolerate and so eventually there was no longer an heir of David to sit on his throne. The Christians believe Jesus was eventually that heir in God's promise to David. The Jews believe that the messiah who has yet to come, will be a decendant of David. I do not know what the Muslim's believe, but it would be interesting to find out.

I sent Kathy a PM, and she has asked/given permission for me to post it here. For reasons of my own, I will not post the entire message, but I will put forth excerpts and I will put forth some other parts with changes. Understanding such a dark mind won't help you heal - it will simply repulse you. The dark mind of a predator will not help you heal, because he will continue to heap the blame on you. He will continue to refer to you as the one who was the aggressor, you as the one who failed somehow, as the one who deserves the shame. He will reinforce what you already wrongfully believe somewhere inside of you. He cannot take responsibility upon himself - how could he? How could a mind allow itself to comprehend the damage he had selfishless and willingly inflicted on an innocent child? It can't - so it blames instead. In a sense, the blaming of the victim is the predators built in self-defense mechanism - it's survival instinct. The predator doesn't see his victim as a real human being, he sees his victim as an object, a thing. He has to, in order for his mind to allow him to do what he does and not be repulsed by who he is. Hearing he too was abused as a child still won't help you heal - it will only further play on your emotions. Yes, it is very likely he was abused as a child in some form or fashion. Yes that is a terrible, terrible, thing. Unfortunately, knowing that does not fix the dark and twisty places of his mind. Knowing that does not heal him. Knowing most likely won't even heal you. Your predator usually choses you out of convenience - he has access to you. It could just as easily been another child, it had nothing to do with who you were, and everything to do with being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Everything to do with access. You were more readily accessable than some other child. It is hard to let go of that mindset, no? Hard to write it off as "wrong place, wrong time". Hard to see it as something random that could have happened to another child instead of you. I think, in some sense, probably because we so desperately need to make sense out of something that is so senseless, we have to own the responsiblity as our own. We have to accep the blame somehow, because if we have no blame - if we have no responsiblity in being a victim as a child - then we have no control. If we can chose to be the victim, it gives us some sense of control. For those of us who were repeat victims, into adulthood - I will also share this though it may not apply to everyone, I think it will apply to some. . . It was the loss of personal boundaries as a child, that made you such easy prey as an adult. Your boundaries were destroyed as a child. There was a loss of a true sense of self too. And then there was the blame the predatory heaped on us. A blame we continue to accept into adulthood because it does give us some sense of control, it in weird sort of way. If it weren't for those things, you would NEVER as an adult, have tolerated what you did. As an adult, you play a role it what goes on. You allow it, therefore, on some level, you too are responsible. You too are a "part of the dance." I am not saying you deserve it - on the contrary, no one deserves such treatment and no one should put up with it. To heal, you have to find all the hidden places and thoughts that tell you, you do deserve it, you should put up with it, etc. and eliminate them. You make statements about being a "used for sex" by men all your life. That is your personal image of yourself. That image is part of why you allow it. When YOU no longer see yourself that way, you will no longer tolerate such horrible treatment. When you can instead say - these men wrongfully abused me, instead of I was their sex toy then you will begin to change your self-image and you will see your entire life change, really. I know, sounds simple, but in practice it is harder.

Very helpful information there, FullCircle. Thank you. I will be rereading it again in a while.

I have not heard that particular story, but I have heard many like it. But it is autism, not Downs syndrome, that you are referring to. Downs syndrome is a genetic disorder, it is one that can be predicted in the womb. Autism MAY also be a genetic disorder, but that is still a theory. Another theory is that the mercury used as a preservative in the vaccinations causes autism. I don't think that theory has been proven either.

Over and over again, God told Israel not to intermarry with "strangers". The definition of strangers seems to change throught the OT, but the theme remained. Over and over again, Israel intermarried with strangers, ignoring this commandment of God. Sometimes there were horrendous consequences for this. Often, there was hypocrasy as well. For instance, Moses was married do a Midianite, yet later killed a man and his wife, because he married a Midianite. Yet, if you trace the lineage of Jesus, you will find that there were a number of "strangers" in his geneology. Is there a lesson to be learned from that?

Satori, What do you think it does inside the adults here who were molested as a children, when they read a pedophile's words about "sexually aggressive children", when they see the pedophile once again blaming the child? Do you think such words can in any way help them heal? Or does it send them right back to that place where they lived as a child? To that place of self blame, guilt, shame? Do you have any idea how many years, how much work it takes to overcome those thoughts and feelings of guilt and shame? Do you have any idea how hard you have to fight on a daily basis not to fall right back into that place of guilt and shame? Are you so sure this guy doesn't understand, probably better than you, how to push someone right back into that place? Are you sure this guy wasn't trying to do just that - to revictimize the victims? I suspect, this guy who knew how to work his way into a 9 year old girls life is smart enough not to show his hand so early in the game. Smart enough to know the words he chose "sexually agressive" only "fondled her", she was only "a little embarassed" - I suspect he knew those words would show his hand. I suspect, he didn't care that it would show his hand. I suspect he gets off on it.

And doesn't that sum it up right there.

That sounds all nice and clinical Satori, but personally I already understand all too well how such a dark and twisted mind works, how it justifies, rationalizes and blames. None of that information, that view and understanding of the insanity inside such a mind, has helped me heal. Nor has it helped me protect my kids. You want to protect your children? Educate them. Teach them boundaries, teach them how to maintain their boundaries. Talk to them ALOT. With that, supervise, supervise, supervise. Think long and hard about who you leave them with when you aren't there to supervise. Listen to what your instincts tell you about them - if necessary do a background check. Better to offend someone by NOT leaving your child with them, than risk having your child injured. You think a background check is going to far? paranoid? My son had a friend whose mom seemed okay, but her boyfriend creeped me out. I did a background check, he was a registered sex offender. The mom knew!!!!! and let this man around her children. My child - never ever will he play at their house. My children also know how to say no to adults. Teacher's, parents, any adult. They understand they listen to their parents. They understand they listen to other adults only within certain boundaries. They understand mom will back them up if they say no to another adult in the proper context (and that includes some circumstances outside the sexual arena as well.) None of that is a guarantee - there are no guarantees. But it is a damned good starting place. As for healing . . . again it is boundaries. When you are molested as a child, as you said, your boundaries are destroyed. Someone has to teach you boundaries, you have to learn boundaries. When you finally reach that place inside, where you know where your boundaries are, where you learn it is okay to protect your boundaries, when you learn HOW to protect your boundaries - then the healing can occur. Then you can come to understand what happened wasn't your fault, that you bear no shame, that what the other person did was their horrendous shame, not yours.

Ruth is a Hebrew name? Interesting. Though it is possible her real name was something else and it was translated Ruth in Hebrew, or that she was given a Hebrew name at some point after her marriage. Also, think about HOW Ruth became part of the lineage of David and Jesus - She seduced her second husband. Crafty on one hand, and yet for a woman in those days, marriage was of the utmost importance because a woman had no money or property of her own.

I have just finished reading a great book that covers a lot of interesting material on women in the Bible, particularly some of the lesser known ones. It also covers some interesting "inconsistencies/contradictions." I thought I would share some bits and pieces and see if anyone was interested in offering some feedback. The book is called "The Harlot by the Side of the Road" and was written by Jonathan Kirsch. If my memory is correct, he also wrote "And Sarah Laughed" - another fantastic read. The first chapter deals with Lot and his daughers. You may recall that after Lot's wife died and they fled to the mountains, Lot's daughers devised a plan to sleep with Lot. It is written that their reason for doing this was, they thought they were the only people left alive on earth. Yet, the story also tells us Lot convinced the angesl to spare Zoar when they destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. This leaves several possibilities a) the angles killed all the people but left the town standing, b) the daughters knew there were other people alive, thus the reasoning for their actions was added to the tale to soften their actions c) the story could have been passed down in somewhat different versions over time and the author combined them somehow? d) something I haven't thought of yet :) In any case, it is interesting to note that the sons of Lot and his daughters grew up into two nations, Ammon and Moab. God told the Israelites to spare these two nations when they came into the promised land and eventually they become enemies of Israel. In Deuteronomy, God tells Israel that an intermarriage between an Israelite and an Edomite or Egyptian might be admitted to the nation of Israel in the third generation, but the offspring of a marriage with an Ammonite or Moabite is forever excluded. Despite this, Ruth, a direct ancestor of David, is a Moabite. This would also mean David, and thus Jesus, are also decendents of Lot and one of his daughters. They are likewise decendants of the Moabite, who God said would forever be excluded from Israel.

Well, I spent about 3 hours making home cooked food for the dogs today. I made one batch with burger, oatmeal, liver, green beans, carrots, and peas. The other batch was eggs (with crushed shells), rice, chicken, green beans, carrots and peas. I figure the cost was right around $30 - $35 for all of it (I was able to buy a bunch of whole chickens on sale - burger was on sale too). I will see how long it lasts - I'm still not entirely sure how much to give them per feeding. I'm hoping it will last 2 - 3 weeks, I put a lot in the freezer. I also bought the brewers yeast with garlic to supplement their food. Any advice on quantities? One is about 65 lbs, the other about 30.

Context Jean - there was a time when he was a man after God's own heart. Then he turned away from God and the result was horrendous.

What could he say to his son, after what he himself had done?

I am sure this wasn't taught in TWI, so you probably will dismiss it, but I will say it for anyone else who might be interested. In the Torah, Chronicles is not considered to be part of the Prophets (which includes Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, etc.). Chronicles is in that category known as "the rest of the writings." In the Torah, Chronicles is the last book, it does not sit next to Kings. The Hebrew scholars believe Chronicles may have been written by the same person who authored Deuterotomy. A studied read will show significant differences in Deuteronomy and Leviticus - as they will between Kings and Chronicles. The author of both Deuteronomy and Chronicles was very very concerned with the laws, the building of the temple, and you will note he or she left out many, many, many of the sordid details regarding David's reign as king. Many of the Hebrew scholars refer to him or her as a "revisionist". The author(s) of Judges, Samuel and Kings was a historian. They were less interested in the laws and rituals and more interested in documenting the facts as they occured. The verse you quoted is actually in II Chronicals 8, BTW, John. The context (remember context???) is the building of the temple by Solomon. It was Solomon who set up the "priests to their service, and the Levites to their charges," as Solomon was instructed by his father, David, to do it. David WAS a man of God, I never questioned that. But, he didn't teach, preach, prophesy, etc. He wasn't a levite. He was a King. He united the two kingdoms, he led men in battle, he ruled a nation in the political realm. And because he didn't follow the laws, because he "took" Bethsheba and had her husband killed, because he allowed his eldest son to rape his only daughter, the kingdom ended up in civil war and the 12 tribes were never again united as one nation. So, you can hold David up as your shining example against VPW all you want. It really is more fitting than you realized. David wasn't a teacher of god's word, he wasn't a prophet - he didn't hold forth the word and he didn't live his life according to the word. Neither did VPW. As a result of David's failings an entire nation suffered. As a result of VPW's failings, many, many people also suffered.

I think I will be buying a lot of chicken, burger, and rice this weekend. We just dodged the bullet and I mean barely. I bought some Old Roy dog treats last weekend. We hadn't really used them - a couple, but not many and the dogs seem fine, but I won't give them any more. It just turned out that we had some meat trimmings left over from some roast and we had been giving them that instead. What I'm concerned about is figuring out how much to feed them. With the dry food we just left it out all day and they graze as they want. Any suggestions/help here? Nicki is a husky and weighs about 65 lbs. Buster is a Beagle/Russell mix and probably ways about 30. How much and how often should I feed them? I don't think I can leave home cooked food out all day, it will get yucky. Not only that, but I'm guessing they will scarf it all down right away anyhow.

I wanted to revisit this again. I am still waiting to see where the Bible says anything about men viewing David as a spiritual leader and not a king. Samuel and Nathan, yes. David was a military leader - not a self-proclaimed prophet or a God proclaimed prophet. Using David to justify VPW doesn't hold up when you examine it with critical thinking.

Yes, Jesus said some very "hard hearted, unloving" things to the Pharassees who were hard hearted and unloving. To the poor, the wounded, those who suffered - he was gentle and kind.

You know John - I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I still remember our conversations on other topics, where you tried to help me with something I was trying to figure out. but 90% of what comes out of your keyboard on these forums is just vile and nasty. It is hard for me to reconcile the two, but after a while, I think I would be stupid to think the 10% revealed more about you than the 90% does.

I'm betting you don't know nearly as much as you think you do. If your sole source of research is PFAL, you have a long ways to go.

Kathy, you have a strong voice inside you, it comes through in these forums. In time, I pray you may figure out how to use it in the real world too.

Aye, there is that too. And yet, I think, as we start to let go of that hope and accept that there will be no resolution - we begin to find that which we have been looking for all along. What we are looking for, we will ultimately only find within ourselves first.