Abigail

I've only ever bought one bottle of it. It doesn't work anywhere near as well as those pink little tablets they used to give us in elementary school. It didn't really encourage the kids to brush better either, the "cool factor" wore off after about the 3rd time they used it. Waste of money, if you ask me.

Thanks, Eyes, that does explain a lot. The Jewish translation indicates Sarah caught Ishmael molesting Isaac, but who knows what the heck really happened. Perhaps as I go through this book, what we will really discover is that the blood of Ishmael and the blood of Isaac was very mingled. Personally, I think we are all related and find the who fight between the two religious sides to be very very sad.

This is the product they have been marketing for children. Apparently it is contaminated with "micro-organisms" - whatever exactly that means. HERE is the link.

Zipporah Very little attention has been paid to Zipporah. We know she was Moses wife, but we know little about who she was as an individual. One of the few verses that mentions her is below. Exodus 4:24ff "At a night encampent on the way, the Lord encountered him [Moses[ and sought to kill him. So Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched his legs with it, saying, "You are truly a bridgeroom of blood to me!" and when He let him alone, she added, "A bridegroom of bllod because of teh circumcision." It is a very difficult verse, both the sages of old and the more conteporary scholars have a difficult time knowing what to do with this verse. God trying to kill Moses!?! I know, TWI would have attributed that to the Devil, via idiom of permission. Judaism does not believe in the devil. Even if there were a devil, Judaism would never grant him the power to supercede God's will. The traditional explanation is that God sought to kill Moses because he failed to keep the covenant by circumcising his son. Zipporah is said to be a Midianite (there is a later reference regarding Moses having a wife who is a Cudange - whether this second reference is to Zipporah or another wife is unclear). Circumcision was a ritual that was not specific only to the Jewish people. Midianites also circumcised their children, as did Egyptians and some of the people of Canaan - but not at such a young age. There is an old oral tradition that says Moses and his father-in-law struck a deal regarding how the children would be raised and when they would be circumcised. Another theory links these verses to the Goddess Isis. Isis was the wife and sister of Osiris, who was killed by his jealous brother, Seth, who tricked him into lying down inside a wooden chest then sealed the chest and placed it in the Nile. Seth later dismembers Osiris' body and scatters the pieces. Isis manages to track down all of the remains of Osiris, but one, his penis. One argument in the Midrash suggests there is a link between circumcision and the practice of sacrificing children that once existed. As the Israelites put the blood of a lamb on their doorposts on the evening of Passover, when the first born of the Egyptians were killed, so the ritual of circumcision is something of a blood offering to God. But anyway you look at it, it was Zipporah who saved Moses' life that night. In fact, throughout his life, time and time again he was spared by women. First, his sister, then Pharoh's daughter, and here Zipporah.

Some would argue Christianity has its Goddess as well, either in the form of Mary for the Catholics, or Holy Spirit for some of the other denominations. I think, when you get right down to it, man craves that female figure in a God, to balance the male. Me, I read my bible and I have no doubt there are other spiritual beings besides God. It is NOT a King James "ism", though I do think that is what TWI taught. The plural usages are in the various Torah translations as well. The Kabbalah says of these verse, that God was conversing with the angels/spirit beings. This is a somewhat simplified explanation, but it could take all day to write it all out. :) Judaism does not believe in a devil in the same manner Christians do. There are verses that refer to idols from other religions as "gods that are not gods," however, that does not eliminate the idea that other cultures may have worshipped other spiritual beings, nor does it mean other spiritual beings (other gods) do not exist. Or it could be that we have all always worshipped the same God in different ways. Yes. They have practices that would be frowned upon by many of the feminists, but when you examine the great heart behind those practices and the high regard they have for women, it doesn't strike me as chuavanistic (sp) at all. In many ways, they have more respect for women than is often found in the secular realm.

As for letting anyone take their classes - again, I do not know for a certainty, but I think many would be open to it, particularly if you were to inquire at a Reform synagogue. Here, you can take classes at the Synagogue and there are also free seminars on the college campus. Chabad has on-line classes. I've never taken one, but I somehow doubt they would limit them to only Jewish people. Learning is very much encouraged, converstion is less encouraged. The Jewish people see it this way - - We are all, Jew or not, God's children.

Eyes, do you know if the Moslem's believe in "original sin" and a messiah? And if they do believe in a messiah, is it a spiritual one or a worldly king? Also, I am curious as to their take on Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac and the reason why Sarah was so adamant that Hagar and Ishmael leave. :) Not that I have any questions or anything - HA Oh sure. The shabbat service is just one part of the entire "community" of Judaism. There is great emphasis on education, whatever area interests you. Plus, as I said, there are volumes upon volumes of oral traditions and rabbinical arguments debating what it all means. It isn't intended to restrictive - it is really more methodical. A way of working your way through all of it. And, it is kind of cool to think that all over the world, on the same evening, Jewish people everywhere are reading the same section, pondering its meaning, lighting candles, etc.

Very good, Roy, I would agree and so would the author of the book. One of the conclusions he draws in the book is that the idea of relgious "tolerance" is there in the Bible - that there were times of intolerance, yes, but also times of tolerance. Eyes explained the Zoar section in very similar fashion to what the author did, as well. Jonathan Kirsch takes some lierary liberties though, and imagines that when Lot and his family reached Zoar, the town was still standing, but had been abandonded by the inhabitants, perhaps because they saw what occured in Sodom and Gomorrah. His reasoning for this, is that he is trying to understand why Lot and his daughters eventually fled to the mountains, after succesfully negotiating for permission to go to Zoar instead. I don't know if the book is available in a download or not. I picked it up at a local bookstore. I would think it would be available at the library as well. Good to see you. :)

I'm really glad you enjoyed the articles. That website is run by a Chassidic Jews, they are ultra-orthodox, which means they practice very strictly. They also have a deeply spiritual side and are the only group of Jews that proselytizes (sp). I have a lot of respect for them and have learned a great deal from them. I would be very interested in learning more about the Koran. I had a number of Moslem friends growing up, but back then we were more interested in the cute boys and latest fashion trends. They have all since grown up, of course, and most of them have gone back to their birth countries. It refers to gossip and slander, negative speech. I am not 100% certain, but I think "Inner Bible" is sort of a figure of speech specific to that article. I think it is simply a reference to the women in the Bible who have gotten so little attention over many generations of a dominated society. It is a way to remind both men and women, that women are equally important. There are Rabbi's, wise men (sometimes referred to as sages) and women who are looked up to for their scholarly knowledge, good deeds, etc. How much emphasis is placed upon them, how much would be taught about them would, probably depend on what specific subject you are researching. We do not do weekly teachings in the same way TWI or many churches do. Rather, we work our way through the O.T. over and over again, one week at a time. It is a cycle, so that every year it starts over again. This Friday, we will read the same verses that were read a year ago this Friday. Teaching, studying, etc., is a separate thing from the Sabbath services. You can join study groups, you can study on your own, you can study on-line. The temples often offer various classes that you are free to take or not as you choose. It is truly a no pressure atmosphere, with lots of room for debate and discussion. Jewish people are often very proud of their equal treatment of women, and it is something to be proud of. But, if you take an honest look at O.T. laws, you will find they do not always play in a woman's favor so well. That being said, there are a number of scholars who would say historically, the Jewish people were often "ahead of their time" in this area. (i.e. even though the O.T. laws make women seem a bit like property, they still offered women more protections than women had in other cultures during that period of time). We continue to make strides in this area, with teachings such as the ones I linked you too, that remind us that although the O.T. appears very patriarchal, those partriarchs would have been in a heap of trouble if it weren't for the women who were their mothers, sisters and wives. I find the Shechina studies very fascinating. The Chassidics, who are the only ones who really publicly and openly teach anything in depth about it (as part of Kabbalah - sp), do not view it as godess worship or polytheism. They simply view the Shechina as a female aspect of a many faceted God. Some of the Jewish groups outside of the Chassidics view this as something that borders on, if not crosses the line into goddess worship. Yet, despite this, they also sing a welcoming song to her every Friday night in the temple, often without even being fully aware of what they are doing or what the song means - although I think this too is begninning to change, thanks to the internet. :) That being said, it is clear from the O.T. that the Jewish people did believe in many Gods and Goddesses, hence they repeatedly got in trouble for worshipping them, so it is not surprising to see those teachings still prevelant within Judaism in some form or fashion. Also, it is entirely likely that a number of the rituals, traditions, and O.T. stories came from cultures that worshipped other gods, cultures that the people of the O.T. assimilated into throughout the ages. This can perhaps be seen in Genesis where God says "let US make man in OUR image" and "lest man become like US".

Thanks for continuing to watch and update us on this Belle. Thankfully, we do not consume a lot of wheat products, unless I make them myself from flour - I am concerned about the wheat flour, though the bag I have right now predates this mess. Cereal and bread pretty much covers it. We will be switching to rice and oat cereals that are wheat and gluten free and continuing with the Passover tradition of matzahs instead of bread for a while longer.

Well, here I was, trying to decide which section of the book to pick from next and then I saw your post. :) I'm going to reorganize your post, in my resopnse, and handle the easier questions first. Yes I am Jewish and no I am not offended by your questions, nor do you need to apologize. The primary Jewish religious book is basically the same as the Christian OT Bible. It is arranged in a somewhat different order, and the one I am reading out of has some slightly different translations, numbering for verses, etc., but essentially it is the same. The Torah is the first five books of the O.T. The Talmud is the enitre O.T. Then there are the Midrash, which are hundreds and hundres of years of Rabinical arguments about what it all means and 'oral traditions' that never made it into the Talmud. Some of those oral traditions (which can now be found in written format) are not referred to in the Bible at all, others expound upon biblical stories. CLICK HERE is a link that will give you some information on Miriam. I will add a few exercpts below: Miriam was a prophetess, as the Torah states clearly (Exod. 15:20). Our Sages tell us that the spirit of prophecy came to her when she was still a child. Her earliest prophecy was that her mother was going to give birth to a son who would free the Jewish people from Egyptian bondage. This is one of the reasons why she was also called Puah, meaning "Whisperer," for she was whispering words of prophecy Miriam's Well," as it became known - a rolling rock that accompanied the Jewish people on their wanderings - provided fresh water in the desert, not only for the people, but also for their cattle and sheep. It also made the desert bloom with green pastures and beautifully scented flowers. Small wonder the people loved and respected this wise, G-d fearing and saintly prophetess. Needless to say, the G-d fearing mother and daughter risked their lives in doing what they did, and they were to be rewarded with the two most distinguished "houses" (dynasties) of the Jewish people: that of Kehunah (Priesthood) --bestowed upon Yocheved's son Aaron, and that of Royalty, bestowed upon David, who was a descendant of Miriam. Miriam was only five years old when she became her mother's helper in delivering Jewish babies, but she was already quite competent(Exod. R. 1:17). Miriam was the wife of Hur, a leading nobleman of the tribe of Judah. Together with Aaron, Hur was appointed to the leadership of the people, while Mosheh went up Mount Sinai for forty days to receive the Torah and bring down G-d's Tablets. Hur was murdered by the worshippers of the Golden Calf when he opposed them and tried to prevent them from committing that grievous sin. Hur and Miriam were the grand-parents of Betzalel, the chief architect of the Sanctuary (Mishkan). And CLICK HERE is another article that briefly mentions a number of women in the bible. I really like the author's closing sentences about Miriam: In her merit, we were redeemed from slavery. And in the merit of women of faith today, the entire world will be redeemed of its darkness.

Yeah, I did too. Poor baby. I wonder how much any of these guys really care about her, and how much of their interest has to do with how much money she is worth. The whole thing is tragic. I feel awful for Stern. If he really loves that baby, its gonna break his heart to give her up.

He does not mentiona Miriam. Although he mentions some of the more well-known women of the bible, his forcus was more on the lesser known women. However, Miriam has been incorporated into the Seder Supper for Passover. We have a cup called Miriam's cup, in memory of her role in saving Moses' life. Did you have a particular question regarding her?

No need to apologize - I was just clarifying, in case there was a misunderstanding. Beyond that, I would agree it is unlikely someone with that disorder could turn it off or on. I think sociopath would be the closest call, if I were to guess at a label. :)

I wasn't trying to imply VPW was schizophrenic, it was meant as a figure of speech.

I think you made perfect sense. They are a precious gift and should be guarded with our lives. Make sure they receive the love and affection they need at home. Make sure they get the attention they need at home. Make sure they are secure in the knowledge they can come to you with anything. Make sure they are watched over, and secure in the knowledge that they are watched over. If you do those 4 things, you have already greatly reduced the risk they will become a victim. Then, don't just teach them stranger danger - stranger danger is something of a myth. Your child is more likely to be molested by someone who knows them, than by a stranger. Instead, teach them about appropriate and inappropriate touch. Teach them it is okay to say no to someone who makes them uncomfortable. Teach them to tell you when someone makes them uncomfortable. Teach them that if they are ever separated from you in a gathering, they should first look for a woman with children to ask for help (no guarantees, but statistically the least likely person to prey on a child they don't know).

Say it ain't so!! We couldn't possibly agree on something!

Some great thoughts there. I am thinking, that is probably what Paul had in mind too, when they went from house to house. Not some "tree" with "limbs" and "branches". In Judaism it is the family unit first. Then the family works in the community. They may do community work through a temple or they may go out in the community in a different area. There is no one leader. Sure, there are Rabbi's, but the Rabbi holds no real power over you - they don't excommunicate you or demand obedience. (unless you get involved with an ultra orthodox group, then you may see some of this.) There is room to debate - in fact, debate is encouraged. There are books upon books filled with debates between different Rabbis regarding what it all means and how it is to be practiced. The individual studies and decides for him/herself. I imagine there are Christian organizations that operate this way too, particularly among the more mainstream churches. You go to church because it is part of your community, not because you will always get the "rightly divided word". You may get something akin to that sometimes, but ultimately is it the churches job to teach you, really? Or is it up to you and God for you to study and learn? Perhaps that is where we dropped the ball regarding churches when we joined TWI. We were looking for someone to give us all the answers when we really should have been looking for a community we could share with/give to/and even go to when we had a need. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity . . .

roflmao!!!!! That is just too damned funny. Aaron, my 10 year old, was asking me last week when Easter was coming. I was teasing him and saying "We're Jewish, we don't celebrate Easter" [We do - well we do the basket part, it isn't a religious holiday for us]. So then he asked what religion Easter was for and what it was all about, so I explained to him that it was a Christian holiday in celebration of the day Jesus rose. He gave me this very puzzled look - he, like many I am sure, just could not figure out how the Easter Bunny played into that. Of course from there, he needed to know how Santa fit into Christmas. I have no idea how accurate this is, but I told him those things were just ways to make the holidays more fun for children, sort of the way we hide a matzoh on Passover for the kids to find.

Thanks, Kathy. I think this conversation we've been having has been a good thing. :)

Its okay. Reply, don't reply. I'll keep the dialogue going as long as you want, and I'll drop it when you want.

I am not a Christian, John. Nor did I say TWI NEEDS to be bad, it simply IS bad - there is a difference. BTW, are you saying VPW was IN Christ Jesus when he was raping young women? I'm not arguing about whether or not he was born again - that I will leave to him and God. But TWI taught that being IN Christ Jesus meant you were in fellowship, not sinning, doing The Word. Likewise, being born again was no guarantee you would walk with God, according to TWI - walking with God required a person deciding to renew their mind. Was the, VPW acting with the renewed mind when he did those things? Sounds a bit schizophrenic to me - the whole thing does. One minute he is one person, walking with the renewed mind and In Christ, the next he is raping someone.

No, but if I were looking for someone (and I am not) I would be looking for someone with enough self control, enough concern for his sisters to NOT rape them. Oh, and I burned my orange book years ago.

You are fine just the way you are Danny.

No not too much. Because we are going to get here eventually, aren't we? It is the part few ever discuss publicly, but at some point, it does need to be discussed, it does need to be acknowledged. I cannot say for a certainty what you mean by "personal desires", but I can speak on this from my own experience and some observations. Young teenaged girls, as they develop a womanly body and discover they are sexually attractive, learn that there is power in their sexuality. Horny teenaged boys would do just about anything to get a piece, sadly, so would far too many adult men. They begin to experiment with that power, not understanding the full effect of it. Some wind up in very very bad situations as a result, others are luckier. Eventually most figure out that such power is not to be abused - that there are serious consequences to abusing such power, not just for the male, but probably even more so for the girl. Some girls are lucky enough to have mothers who will openly and honestly discuss this power with them, will set boundaries for them and teach them how to set boundaries for themselves. But for a girl who has been sexually abused - especially when that sexual abuse took place over a long period of time, reining in such power is very difficult, because we feel as if it is the only power we have. We view ourselves not as well rounded people but as a sexual being, a sexual object. And in the end, doesn't it feel better to be in a position to say "yes", than to be taken by force? If we have already been taught our only option is to agree or be forced, then the only option - the only way to take back some control, is to say yes. And how much more control do we have, if we pick first? If we chose the man before one can choose us? And then there are the feelings of guilt and shame that are intermingled with our natural desire to have sex. Feelings that were instilled in us as young children, in part for some - because they were to young to understand what was going on - because they felt pleasure from the experience and are ashamed of that pleasure. So guilt and shame ultimately become tangled with sexual desire. How does one then learn to feel sexual desire without feeling guilty and ashamed? Without feeling slutty? Our bodies were designed to feel pleasure from sexual stimulation - there is no shame in that, it is something that was also beyond our control. So yeah, our natural desire for sex gets all tangled together with feelings regarding power, control, guilt, and shame. Heavy duty stuff - not easily unravelled.