Abigail

Apparently the rice was also imported from China. Fox story HERE Here's the most relevant part: The Pacoima, Calif., company said recent laboratory tests showed its recalled products contain melamine. Natural Balance believes the source of the contaminant was rice protein concentrate, which the company recently added to the dry venison formulas. A San Francisco company, Wilbur-Ellis Co., began importing the ingredient in July from a Chinese company, Futian Biology Technology Co. Ltd., according to Wilbur-Ellis president and chief executive John Thacher. It resold the ingredient to five pet food manufacturers, including Diamond Pet Foods Inc. of Meta, Mo. Diamond manufactured the dry dog and cat foods recalled by Natural Balance, Diamond Pet Foods spokesman Jim Fallon said. Thacher declined to identify his company's other four customers OH does that .... me off!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Dot. The article you posted said the newest recall was NOT linked to the overall recall, but the one I posted said it had the melanine in it too - OY. I bet in the end they find an entirely different culprit I have been switching them out with the homemade - beef/liver/oatmeal and chicken/rice/eggs - both with peas, carrots and greenbeans. Just trying to make sure I cover all the bases - lol. I don't know what I'm going to do about the store bought stuff yet. Honestly, I don't want to spend another $20 - $30 only to find out it is no good or they won't eat it. :( I can't return it either, I didn't keep the bag (we always dump the store bought stuff into a plastic container with a seal). At this point, I don't know if they are refusing to eat it because something is wrong with it, or if they just don't like it. I did mix it with homemade food to try to make the transition better and they still wouldn't eat it. I thought - well when they are hungry enough, they will eat. Nicki did, eventually pick at it - Buster wouldn't go near it. I finally caved last night and gave him straight homemade food. Then today, when I read the newest recall involving rice - I just dumped all the dry stuff in their bowls and made more homemade food for them.

Yeah, I am very worried. Dot, the dog food I bought wasn't NutrA, Sushi pointed it it was NutrO. Their wet food and pouched foods are made by Menu and are on the recall list. Their website says their dry food is not being recalled, is not made by Menu Foods and does not contain wheat gluten. The ingredients on the bag does not list any wheat products. However the dogs aren't eating it either. I"ve been mixing it with homemade food and they lick all the homemade stuff off the dry stuff and leave the dry behind. This morning, Buster didn't even come sniff the bowl!

How, exactly does one determine which group, religion, denomination, etc. has that one universal truth? Or is it not possible that all groups have parts of the universal truth and none have all of it? Or is it possible that many of us have the same truths but use different labels and terminology to describe them?

I've known some Christians who did some really terrible things too! Maybe we should stay away from all Christians and from Christianity, cause a couple of those dudes were really bad news! For that matter, I knew some white men who were just awful! Better stay away from them as well!!!

*nods nods* We still celebrate the new moon, though not in the same manner - it is the celebration of a new month. This is from Jewfaq.org The day after the moon appeared was a festival, announced with the sounding of the shofar, commemorated with solemn convocations, family festivities and special sacrifices. The importance of this holiday in ancient times should not be underestimated. The entire calendar was dependent upon these declarations; without the declarations, there would be no way of knowing when holidays were supposed to occur. In later days, however, the calendar was fixed by mathematical computation. After the destruction of the Temple, sacrifices were no longer available. Accordingly, the significance of this festival has substantially diminished. There are some slight changes to the liturgy for Rosh Chodesh, including the addition of part of Hallel after the Shemoneh Esrei, and some additional Torah readings, but that is about the only observance of Rosh Chodesh today. It remains a custom in some communities for women to refrain from work on Rosh Chodesh, as a reward for their refusal to participate in the incident of the Golden Calf. See The Role of Women.

Apparently, Abi used my computer whilst I was away from it. By the by, if you're a Star Wars fan, Joseph Campbell was a very direct influence on George Lucas, if he didn't actually work with him. The Star Wars saga is closely based on age old tales.

I left of my own choice. I was miserable and I had done enough of my own research and found enough errors in what was being taught in TWI, that I no longer believed they were the only ones with the truth or that they even had only truth. Realizing that alloed me to be open to researching what other people had written and studied, along with my own studies. I have learned a ton and I am still learning!!

Again interesting stuff. What the author talks about in the pbs link you posted is very similar to what the author of "Harlot by the Side of the Road" talks about. How things were changed and "redacted" over time to support existing belief systems or for political reasons. Here are the estimated dates according to Jonathan Kirsch 900 BC Author J, (who referred to God as Yahwist and is thought to have been a female) writes parts of Genesis 800 BC Author E (who referred to God as El, Elohiem, etc) writes parts of Genesis **This would have been roughly 300 years after the exodus from Egypt and after the laws were given to Moses - Y probably lived during the reign of David. 700 - 600 BC - Deuterotomy is written under the reign of King Josiah. It is believed that the Deuteronomist changed some of the laws in an attempt to please the very pious King Josiah. It is also believed that this person, along with several others may have collected the stories and edited them into what we now know as Joshua, Judges, I and II Samuel and I and II Kings. (thought to be a female) 500 BC - author known as P or "Pristly Source" is credited for most of Leviticus. 400 BC - Redactors (Most likely date for when the Five Books of Moses were recognized as Holy Writ) collected more of the oral traditions and assembled of the writings into the continuous narratives we have today. Also may have adjusted the stories to fit their own ideology and political aenda. 200 BC - Most likely date when the Prohpets were accepted as Holy Writ 250 - 100 BC - Bible translated from Hebrew into the Greek Septuagint 100 BC - earliest surviving Hebew texts of th bible were written (discovered in 1947 as Dead Sea Scrolls) 90 A.D. - Final canonization of the Hebrew bible 405 A.D. - First tanslation of teh Christian bible from Greek to Latin' 1526 - First translation of the bible into English When you look at how much time passed before these books were written and think about the hundreds of more years that passed before they were canonized, and then the various translations - there is no telling how much was adapted from other cultures, how much was changed and edited along the way-etc. Then there were the writings that were left out altogether, most of which have never been recovered. It is mind boggeling. I still find this subject interesting and would like to learn more about the role of the moon in pagan worship, as the Jewish calendar is based upon the lunar cycle to this day. I am absolutely fascinated by this!

Interesting theory, but how do we know Eve never heard the voice of God?In Judaism, it is taught that Eve disobeyed God and HER punishment was that SHE had to submit to Adam. However, it was not originally God's plan to make women submissive to men, they were to be equal partners. All women were not to be punished for Eve's mistake, but it did sort of work out that way. Over time, women began righting this mistake - God told Abraham to listen to his wife, Rebecca knew what Isaac did not about Jacob, etc. Interesting, I hadn't thought about that. He seems to be doing much better today, thanks. I think he is still a bit tender, but he is wagging his tail again, instead of keeping it tucked down.

Agreed and agreed. That is how Shechina (I think I misspelled that) is understood in Kabbalah. Interesting, my reading on it was always different. That it was a form of worship in honor of the Goddess, and something of a fertility rite, an honor to have a child in the goddesses name. And that is interesting too, isn't it. How the teachings and values we are taught as children are so deeply ingrained in us that it is hard to imagine someone else my have vastly different views.

Yup that is the one. I looked long and hard for it - had to go to two different pet stores before I found it. I hope it is a good one. It looked like a good one. :)

Yeah, the $35 worth of homecooked food I made last Saturday ran out this morning. :( Too expensive for my budget. So today I went to the pet store bought Nutra something - no wheat products, no fillers - chicken, rice, eggs, vegies, etc. I still made some more home food too - figured I'd do a mixture of both.

roflmao - that was exactly the reaction I had.

I am short on time so I will come back to your other posts, but I wanted to respond to this. Also, if you pray, please pray for our doggie, Buster. Someone opened our back gate this afternoon and let our dogs loose - I'm guessing they were trying to steal the bikes out of our garage and were scared off, but that is just a guess at this point. Anyway, we did manage to get them back, but they were on the loose for hours and it looks like Buster got hit by a car. He is not bleeding anywhere and is eating okay, but he appears to be very bruised and beat up - he is limping pretty badly. He has bad knees on the back end to begin with, was born that way, now he is limping on his front side too. Anyway, back on topic - the reason for the law was to protect the woman. Women were not allowed to own property and did not possess money of their own. They were entirely dependant upon their father, then their husband, and then one day their sons. If they did not have sons to inherit their husband's property, they were left destitute. So the point behind the law was to make sure the women were always provided for. I know, I know - the ick factor gets me too, so does the chauvanistic aspect - but I guess they were at least trying . . .

I'm not sure, but I think labs are bird dogs. Our beagle/mix comes home smelling something awful when he gets loose. Last time, I had to bath him twice and he still smelled awful. Our husky howels at the trains and sirens - I think it sounds cool!

Before we go too far amok - and I don't mind going amok at all - I wanted to mention the title of the book. (lest I forget - HA) Tamar was "the harlot by the side of the road". She was married to Judah's eldest son, who died before giving her children. Under the law, his next eldest son was to perform the duty of a husband and give her children. He didn't have to marry her, though he could if he wanted, but he did have to impregnate her. Judah's second son did not want to do this and spilled his seed on the ground to avoid it. He stood as heir to all of Judah's wealth after his older brother died, but if Tamar were to have sons, the son's would become heirs instead. Judah's second son also died, as a consequence of his refusal to fulfill the law. Judah sent Tamar back to her family, promising her he would send for her when his youngest son was old enough to fulfill the duty. He broke his promise. Eventually, Tamar "played the harlot" quite literally and Judah paid her for her services, not knowning who she was. She became pregnant by Judah - with twins. The modern religious world would find Tamar's behavior shocking and immoral - to play a whore and seduce her father-in-law! But one of her son's from her union with Judah is the ancestor of both David and Jesus. We tend, at times anyway, to view morality issues as black and white. It is either moral or it isn't. Yet time and time again in the bible there are examples of immoral behavior that ultimately lead to something good - that perhaps wasn't really so immoral afterall under the specific set of circumstances.

Eyes, I don't know. I am starting to wonder if the different names don't represent the different names various cultures used in Biblical times, as opposed to the aspect teaching of TWI. Perhaps in those days there was some understanding that "all the gods are one god." Perhaps the different names represent different authors and the name that particular author knew god by. That is one of the theories presented by a number of scholars and it explains some of the contradictions in the O.T. - such as those between Exodus and Deuteronomy. No, I do not think worshipping a goddess equates with idolotry. Is there a right god and a wrong god? Or are there simply different ways of recognizing and paying tribute to the one god? Do you think God really cares if we worship him by eating a piece of bread and drinking some wine on sunday vs lighting candles on Friday night vs the many other rituals used to recognize him/her? Very interesting stuff Eyes and I would love to hear more. Jewish people also have special prayers to honor the dead, as well as a baby naming ceremony, complete with a Hebrew name. What is even more interesting to me though, is the patriarchal stuff and the "fall of women" caused by chauvaanism. Like I said, O.T. treatment of women would be unacceptable in our day and time - in some ways they were treated like property. However, at the same time, there were protections in place to make sure she had a means of finacial support and security.

Thanks, Bramble! I used to have the all gods are one god as part of my tag line - I pulled it from "The Mists of Avalon" which is still one of my favorite books. I have read Joseph Campbell but not Ronadl Hutton. I think I will look for him at the library this weekend. The snake stuff is especially interesting to me also, because in that context it makes the creation account in Gensis, along with Jewish tradition fit very well.

ROFLMAOPMP Thanks FC, I needed a good laugh

Tell more, please, Bramble! I started to post this earlier and messed it all up. I will try again. The Jewish people worship the God YWHW or Yahweh. However, the God in the creation story is Elohim - which is a plural form for the Hebrew word God and and relates to the Let US make man in OUR image. This creation story is very similar to one originating in Mesopotamia. Which came first, I have no idea. The Canaanites highest God was called El and when Abraham received a blessing from the Canaanite king/priest, it was in the name of El Elyon "God Most High, Maker of heaven and earth". It wasn't until Moses that God became Yahweh, at which time God told Moses he was previously known to Abrham and Isaac as El Shaddai "God Almighty". The story of Noah may have originated from the even older Sumero-Babylonia story of Gilgamesh. Some of the passages found in Proverbs are almost word for word the same as passages found within ancient Egyptian texts. When the "sons of God" married daughters of men and gave birth to Nephilim - Hebrew scholars say a more accurate rendering would read the sons of the godS married duaghers of men. And again there is the Shekinah - the goddess aspect to Judaism. Mary and Holy Spirit within Christianity. And as it turns out - at least at some point in history there were Goddesses in the Arabian nations as well. Throughout the O.T., the Jewish people often worshipped goddesses, along side their God. It was only during the reign of King Josiah that goddess worship was really anihilated for a time, and returned again after the destruction of the Temple. All of this leaves me wondering if we all worship the same God, and simply call him by different names - or if there are many gods. [sorry George, if you are reading - but I simply cannot stick with the notion of no god at all, that is just too damned depressing to me. :) ] It also leaves me wondering who it was that finally succeeded in eliminating all but the faintest traces of goddess worship from the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity - and how and why.

I will have to look up the biblical references to the morning star again - it has been along time. I think Jewish tradition links them to a king, perhaps Babylonian? With regard to the two halves of fertility - my understanding of some of the ancient pagan rites would correspond with this. It is interesting to me, because Judaism does not follow the sun, but the moon. In the Jewish reckoning of time, a day starts when the sun sets. Likewise, the calendar follows the pattern of the moon, and does not follow the same cycle as our 12 month calendar. I have often wondered how many of the Jewish holidays have corresponding pagan ones. But for now, I must be off "Grey's Anatomy" will be on soon! This has been really interesting and fun Eyes - thank you. I will come back to it tomorrow or over the weekend. I can't promise my mind won't run amok in the interim though.

That is precisely what I was thinking. Before they ate, they were as babies. They knew no shame, no right from wrong, not good from evil. But at the same time, they knew no real boundaries either. If they wanted, like a child, they would take. That is also what Jewish tradition teaches. That they were supposed to wait until the Sabbath to eat. I sometimes wonder if something would have occured in the interim, or on the Sabbath day, that would have better prepared them to handle the knowledge they were to receive. This is where Christianity and Judaism begin to diverge. Most Jewish people do not believe in original sin, but I think both would agree that God did not want them to eat of the tree of life. Nor do Jewish people see the Messiah as a spiritual savior, forever sparing us from the wrath of God. Rather, we believe each man is accountable for his actions. Some Jewish people (me included) believe we were spiritual beings before we were born in human bodies. We were sent here to learn something, and we may return many times before we have learned what it is we need to know. Tradition has it that Ishy was 15 (that cracks me up, I have a friend who's nickname is Ishy because he was born in Ishpeming) and Isaac was 5.

The 12 Tribes of Ishmael from the Bible were: Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and kedmah. According to Josephus, the Arabian nations come from Nebaioth. Ezekiel 27:21 says of Kedar: "Arabia and all Kedar's chiefs were traders under your rule; they traded with you in lambs, rams, and goats. According to one article I found, they worshipped, among others (oh, you are going to LOVE this) "the morning star of heaven" [ring familiar from certain writings of the prophets - perhaps the morning star does not refer to a devil, but to the God that some of ishamael's decendent's worshipped. Religiously they were ruled by priestesses and also worshipped an evening star, as well as a sun god and a sky goddess known as Allat - who later became the God called Allah. The Kedarites are mentioned in several other places in the bible, including a psalm Psalm 120, Isaiah 42:11, Jeremiah 2:10, and Jeremiah 49:28. It would appear that not much is known about the remainder of the tribes. However, some hisotrians believe the decendants of Mibsam and Mishma intermarried with the Simeonites. This is based on I Chronicles 4:24ff "The sons of Simeon: Nemuel, Jamin, Jarib, Zerah, Shaul; his son Shallum, his son Misbam, his son Mishma.

Amok Amok - roflmao. I don't know that God excised anything from our memories. I think it is more likely that we just lost it along the way - forgot it or had it beaten out of us by over zealot relgious leaders who were more hungry for power than godliness. And yet, despite that, remnants of the godess has remained in some form or fashion. And while we are running amok amok amok - and who cares iif a thread stays perfectly on topic or strays and comes back anyway - right? Here's some more amok running for you . . In the Tanakh I am reading is says thusly ( ;) ) regarding Adam, Eve and the serpent: "The two of them were naked, the man and his wife, yet they felt no shame. Now the serpent was the shrewdset of wall the wild beasts . . ." That word naked, in Hebrew is 'arummim' and is a play on the word 'arum' which is translated shrewd. So, one could perhaps read that Adam and Eve were shrewd, but the serpent was more shrewd? They were shrewd and knew no shame, but AFTER they ate, they knew shame. There is a Jewish tradition that says God intended for them to eat - that it was a choice. They could remain shrewd and unashamed (and in a very real sense ignorant, dependant, and stuck in terms of growth) or they could eat and evolve. Okay, I'm off to do some research on the genealogy of Ishmael if I can find it . .. On that topic, you mght find it interesting to recall that what Abraham died, both Isaac and Ishmael buried him. Also, Ishmael, like Isaac, was the father of 12 tribes. Oh yeah, what Ishmael was doing to Isaac - My Tanakh says Sarah saw them playing, King James says Ishmael was mocking Isaac and one of the other translations says he made sport of him. The Hewbrew word is t'sahak. One of it's meanings is "laugh" and can be a play on Isaac's name. However, another meaning is "fondle". It is used again in Gen 26:8 of Isaac with Rebekah where it says, "Behold, Isaac was "sporting" with Rebekah his wife" - that word sport is also t'sahak. Perhaps we will never know for certain. Was Sarah really so jealous and petty as to toss them out into the wilderness over childish teasing? Or was Ishmael doing something else? I don't really know. The author of "Harlot by the Side of the Road" seems to argue pretty well that it was molestation. Even that is what took place, it is sad to see thousands of generations later, there is still bad blood because of it.