Abigail

Okay, am going back to Rom 3:19 and ff for context. I may play with some different translations through the links you provided, Cman. NIV: 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify The Complete Jewish Bible: 19 Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment. 20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteousn on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. 21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well - 22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile, Okay, now I will break it down a bit, for those who have the patience to read the entire post The Complete Jewish Bible: 19 Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment. and 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. These two verses esentially say the same thing, IF you understand the teachings of Judaism. Judaism teaches that ALL people are children of God, both Jews and non-Jews. However, the Jews swore an oath to follow the laws of Torah whereas everyone else is only bound to the Noatic laws. So, what this is saying is that the Torah was given to the Jews (those living within its framework) for the specific purpose of silencing ALL people by showing them they all DESERVE God's adverse judgment. In other words, no one could live up it it perfectly! See, the law was good in that it taught us two things 1) right from wrong and 2) that we are all imperfect. Unfortunately, the religious leaders of Jesus' time, forgot or ignored the fact that they too were imperfect, forgot that in condemning others they were also condemning themselves. Jesus was considered heretical because he threw that in their faces, so to speak. 20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteousn on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. 21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well - 22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile, I like the longer translations, because I think they are more clear. Legalist observance of the Torah lacks the depth of understanding and heart. It is done out of compulsion instead of out of love. The result is that instead of focusing on God's love they become focused on their own shortcomings, and eventually they are no longer focused on god at all, but only on themselves or on the sins of others (which is usually a result of trying to make oneself feel better by putting down others). It goes on to say God's way of making peole righteous has been made clear - that it (righteousness) comes from God as the Torah (law) and prophets have been a witness too (again, the information has been there all along, but people missed it).

WearWord, I am wondering who you studied Kabbalah under and/or if you've been searching it on your own. The reason I ask is there is a lot of stuff, especially on the net and in the New Age section of the bookstores that sell themselves as Kabbalah, but are not. They may be close, they may have some of it - but they miss a lot too. I have studied some Kabbalah, a lot of it still goes over my head. I have to digest it in very tiny portions. My experience has been that a foundation in Judaism is helpful in understanding it. Also, to study it with the Jews you will get more accurate information. The site I enjoy the most is chabad.org. They are an ultraorthdox group and I am not disciplined enough to practice as they do, but I thoroughly enjoy most of their teachings and have learned much from them. One of the beauties of the teaching of the Chabads is that, despite their strict discpline and practice, they do not follow the "letter of the law" but rather the spirit. In other words, they do what they do out of a depth of understanding and out of love, as opposed to out of legalism. I have read through a number of your posts and I am somewhat amused by the dialogue that has taken place here. I have a suspicion (though I am as yet not completely certain) that you and many of the others are saying the same things but in very different ways. You still use a lot of the terminology from TWI, and especially for those who were with TWI in the later years under Martindale - those words translate very differently than you may intend them to. In a sense, it seems to me as if you are speaking one language and a number of other people speak an entirely different one - but if there was a translator you would be saying very similar things. CMan, thanks a bunch for the links!!!!! I am going to thoroughly enjoy those websites! :)

I wish I had a bible in front of me so I could pull out the rest of the verse and context. In any case, I wanted to share something I saw with that one sentence you quoted. What if the idea behind this statement isn't as we were taught in PFAL - that the law in and of itself is bad (remember Jesus said through the flesh it was made weak - i.e. because of people) What if, instead Paul is saying that we will never be justified by the law, because by the law we are aware of sin. So, our justification comes else where, yes. BUT, the law is still good in that it teaches us right from wrong. Another way, we all screw up - none of us will ever be perfect, and with that knowledge of imperfection it is really easy to condemn ourselves and believe we are not "justified". However, the laws are also still useful in that they teach us something and without that understanding one could walk around thinking it was okay to rape people, thinking it was okay to steal, etc. etc. Mark you summed it up very well here: I believe that was always the intent with the law too - but people messed it all up, just as they do even today.

Remember, Jesus, Paul, all of them were Jews. Most especially Jesus and Paul were well versed in the teachings of Judaism. I haven't completed my research, but what I have done so far would indicate pretty much everything they taught was already and still is taught within Judaism's various branches. Forgiveness did exist in O.T. times. Jesus was a "heretic" because he confronted the hard-hearted, fanatical, fundamental Jewish leaders who knew the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law (i.e. the heart of the law - the reasons for it, the intent) and thus caused hardship for the people. It is not so different today even in some branches of Christianity, is it? Same with Paul - the weakness in the law wasn't the law itself but what PEOPLE did to the law - just as today, the "weakness" within Christianity is often not what Jesus and/or the apostles taught, but what PEOPLE do with their teachings. Same s h i t, different day.

God doesn't change. Forgiveness was ALWAYS available. The law wasn't weak in that it could not love - PEOPLE were weak in that they DID NOT love. God's love is within the laws, but when people chose to use the laws not for love, but for their own selfish motivations, people couldn't FIND God within the laws. Edited to add - consider this, Neither Jesus, Peter, Paul or any of the other apostles taught any new thing, really. It was all there from the begining for those who were willing to see.

I love my crockpot. It is great in the winter - throw stuff in it, turn it on, come home from work and dinner is done. Also, if you slow cook a corned beef roast in one - the meat comes out so tender and juicy it almost falls apart. It is as good as anything you can find in a real Jewish deli!

Happiest of birthdays to you!

Well, when you have snooty pans, you often also need to have the right sponge to clean them with. So, in that spirit, Sushi also got some Sponge Bob Hot Pants He was kind enough to model them for all of us who made it to Shellon's

He didn't REALLY through it out the window - he said that for Shellon's benefit. It was actually pretty amusing from my perspective because I KNEW the pan was a gag gift and Sushi didn't realize it at first. So there he was, trying to be very polite and thankful while I am standing there knowing he will NEVER cook food in that pan because it isn't snooty enough for him He is very particular about his cookware. Me, I always bought the cheapy stuff, used it til I ruined it or no longer liked it and then bought more cheapy stuff. When Sushi and I moved in together, one of the first things he did was throw away all my post and pans and replace them with his snooty pans. Then there were the new kitchen knives. The silverware that reminded him of the silverware he had growing up. And oh yes, no more grape vine dishes, only rainbow colors are good enough for my Sushi ;) :)

Will keep you in my prayers ((((Mo))))

A young guy from North Dakota moves to Florida and goes to a big "everything under one roof" department store looking for a job. The Manager says, "Do you have any sales experience?" The kid says "Yeah. I was a vacuum salesman back in North Dakota." Well, the boss was unsure, but he liked the kid and figured he'd give him a shot, so he gave him the job. "You start tomorrow. I'll come down after we close and see how you did." His first day on the job was rough, but he got through it. After the store was locked up, the boss came down to the sales floor. "How many customers bought something from you today?" The kid frowns and looks at the floor and mutters, "One". The boss says "Just one?!!? Our sales people average sales to 20 to 30 customers a day. That will have to change, and soon, if you'd like to continue your employment here. We have very strict standards for our sales force here in Florida. One sale a day might have been acceptable in North Dakota, but you're not on the farm anymore, son." The kid took his beating, but continued to look at his shoes, so the boss felt kinda bad for chewing him out on his first day. He asked (semi-sarcastically), "So, how much was your one sale for?" The kid looks up at his boss and says "$101, 237.65". The boss, astonished, says "$101,237.65?!? What the heck did you sell?" The kid says, "Well, first, I sold him some new fish hooks. Then I sold him a new fishing rod to go with his new hook. Then I asked him where he was going fishing and he said down the coast, so I told him he was going to need a boat, so we went down to the boat department and I sold him a twin engine Chris Craft. Then he said he didn't think his Honda Civic would pull it, so I took him down to the automotive department and sold him that 4x4 Expedition." The boss said "A guy came in here to buy a fish hook and you sold him a boat and a TRUCK!?" The kid said "No, the guy came in here to buy tampons for his wife, and I said, 'Dude, your weekend's shot, you should go fishing.........'"

Interesting, Mark. It is too bad we don't know the cause and therefore the cure for this problem.

I had regular weekly babysitting jobs from 11 - 15. At 15 I spent a summer working for the school district in their printing operations during the day and doing telephone sales for another company at night. At 17 I got a job in a fast food joint and moved out of my parents house.

Take the test HERE My results: Outcome C - The Scientist. Based on the descriptions you chose, you have quite a unique mind. You are creative, introverted, and find it hard to meet new people. You are constantly looking for new methods and ideas, and find excitement in learning.

To what extent have you been brainwashed? You have overcome most brainwashing! Way to go! You don't trust many people and you don't care about what other people think of you. And you use logic when making decisions.

:o

If so, I'd be happy to take care of that for you, Sushi

Hap, I like my version better if for no other reason than it has completely turned my son off to that particular fad! Krys the kids wear uniforms at the school my boys go to - it didn't stop them from trying this particular fashion statement out though. In response, our superintendent bought suspenders and any kid caught with his pants sagging had to wear these goofy looking suspenders for the rest of the day. The superintendent would take their picture with suspenders on and hang it outside the office door. The kids like him - they think he is funny, but they respect him also, and his plan worked well. :) Batcave - that is very very funny!!

Men in prison wear their pants hanging low (sagging) to let other male prisoner's know they are "available".

Midland. I guess I don't talk like a Yooper anymore. I should retake the test after my trip to Escanaba.

Apparently a town in Louisianna is considering banning the sagging pants. The story is HERE They are considering a $500 fine and/or 6 months in jail. Personally, I think it is the most stupid "fashion trend" I have ever seen. One day walking I saw a man with two pair of boxer shorts - worn in such a fashion so that you could see the band from both pairs, and pants sagging under his behind. It took everything I had not to burst out laughing as I imagined the time it took him to get those boxers on, just so, and belt those pants just so, so they sagged at just the right place. Aaron tried to wear his pants like that once. I told him how the fad got started and he has never tried it again. :lol:

Wait a minute!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shellon, I was KIDDING when I offered the kids up as a sacrafice to our gathering!

I could never narrow it to one song, but I can pick a few artists Kate Bush Tori Amos The Fray Pearl Jam Aerosmith (yeah, I know, what a mix - ha! its never boring that way)

Well I can tell you the kind he WON'T want for his "precious" (hehehehe) and even this isn't right . . . . On the other hand, he may really appreciate this one . . .

It was four score and . . . . oh wait, that's not it It was 20 years ago today . . . . uh, no, that's not right either . . . Well, anyway . . . . . .