Abigail

I think it is circular. When I look at Jewish history . . . periods of great love and enlightenment, followed by periods of pharisees seeking after the law and forgetting the reason for the law . . . back to periods of great love and enlightment and so forth. I suspect the same occurs in all religions. I like to hope, however, that with every cycle we grow a little better . . .a little closer to the light . . .even if we do take a half step backward for every step forward. Not so different from the child who moves away from his parents, but must return to them again to reassure himself that they are still there . . . still holding the boundaries in place . . . but slowly moving the boundaries too, as the child grows older and needs fewer and fewer of them.

Very well said, Sir!

All this talk of Jesus and who is saved and who isn't. It is one of the reasons I ultimately rejected Christianity and returned to the religion of my heritage. Judaism has no such teachings. The basic principals of Judaism all come down to how do we make this world a better place. What do we do to contribute to our community and society. Some sects don't even believe the Messiah prophesies are literal. Rather, they believe God's Kingdom will reign on this earth when humantity has evolved to a point where WE bring it to pass on this earth by how we choose to conduct our lives. There is only one sect of Judaism that seeks to "convert" on any level. And even they are really only asking non-observant Jews to become observant, although they will not reject a non-jew who wishes to make a covenant with God to follow the Jewish laws. Yes, there are zealots among the Jewish people. Zealots who would reject all non-jews and zealots who would reject those Jewish people who observe differently than they. But, the vast majority of the Jewish people do not believe or practice such things. Judaism teaches that we are all God's children. While the OT does speak of conquering lands and killing its inhabitants, it also has passages that teach us how to love and honor the "stranger" among us. To every season a time (or however it goes). That is what the Bible is . . . the story of the evolution of humanity. How we have grown from Adam and Eve, through child sacrifices, through animal sacrifices, to wherever we are here and now. Whatever/Whoever Jesus was. . . man, messiah, great rabbi . . . he came to teach peace and love. Yet, even his teachings have been used to for war and hate. So too have the teachings of Mohammad and Moses been used.

Which is why my dad is an athiest and sees all religions as evil. Sad testimony on behalf of God, no? Regardless of what name one worships Him by. What if there is never a "great fire event?" What if there is no "wake up call?" What if the two groups you refer to are on the path that is right for them, even if it isn't God's plan for you? What if it is you who ends up having the wake up call?

I think it is a matter of perspective, Socks. We may have differing names for God, we may have differing rituatls for worship, but in the end we all want similar things. Many Christians agree with this idea. Yet, there are also those who would like to see their specific doctrinal beliefs made rule of law for this country. Issues such as abortion, pornography, the death pentaly, welfare, marriage and divorce - they would see their religious beliefs become the rule of law on these issues. Similarly, there are many Jewish and Muslim people who would agree with foundational prinicipal of the Delcaration of Independence. Yet, there are also those Jews and Muslims who would like to see their particular doctrinal beliefs become the rule of law. Still, we cannot paint all Christians, all Muslims, or all Jews with one brush based upon what some would want. Thanksfully, at least for now, those who would force all to live by their own doctrinal beliefs are still the minority here. How sad for those who are stuck in a country where the brutality and might of the few force all to live a certain way.

Some would assume I should hate all Muslims. What people don't realize is that I grew up with many Muslims. They were my childhood friends and they were my neighbors. Some of them quite literally fed my family when we had no food to eat. I learned a tiny bit of their traditions. But what I learned mostly was that when it comes to what matters, they were not any different than the rest of us. They wanted food to eat, people to love, children to laugh with. Pretty Ironic, if you think about it. One of my best friends was raised Christian. Her mother used to call me that dirty jew girl. Should I then paint all Christians with the hurt and anger those terrible words created within me? Remeber too, even during WWII in Nazi Germany, there were Germans who opposed the regime. Germans who risked their lives to save a few of the Jews. What the Nazi's did to the Jews was a tragety to be remembered. But also to be remembered is that not all Germans were Nazis. Likewise, not all Muslims are terrorists. And we do share common history . . . Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Do we not all three worship the God of Abraham? Why then, would we have more fear of each other than even those who worship other gods? (And I am NOT suggesting we should fear them, either.) Did not God promise Hagar's son that like Isaac, he would be a great nation? Why then, do we fight, when we are brother nations? Should we be like Cain and Abel on a national level? So the Quoran has stories and passages that advocate violence. Well, the God of Abraham, in His Bible, also has stories and passages that advocate violence. Sometimes violence is a necessary evil. But most rational people (whether Muslim, Jew, or Christian) recognize violence should only be used as an absolute last resort in self defense. And, there are irrational Muslims, Christians, and Jews, who would advocate violence even when violence is not necessary.

I think it is a tragedy that there is so much anger and fear between these groups. They all have their foundation in the same place. I have a childhood friend who is Muslim. We went to middle school together while our parents attended college. He is now a surgeon living in Egypt. We talk about the current events and the tensions that have continued to rise since 9/11 via facebook. He said to me last night: "You remember the old days in Michigan, and how life was just nice and compare to now. There is recent mutation in thought in the last 20 years, but believe it is never Islam what you see or talk about, it is circle of misunderstanding as a result of some terrorists showed up I don't know where they came from. I feel down sad about what is going on, and dream things could return to the previous point one day, which I doubt!" The foundation of the conversation was a video clip he posted of a man he calls insane, who is a Jihadist. I responded by saying to him that what scares me more than anything about people like the man in the video is not so much what he has to say, but how allegedly rational people will react to him. How they will fear, hate and blame millions of people because of what a small percentage say and do. Then, the young Muslim men feel discrimated against and it just pushes them to join up with the insane people like the man in the video. It becomes a viscious cycle. All three of these religions are bound together by a common history. They are also bound together by a number of common doctrinal beliefs. Yet, we allow fear to rule and divide.

Would like to do a chat meet up tomorrow (Saturday) around 9 EST. I think Hap will be there and Sushi too if he can stay up that late. :) Maybe try to talk Shellon into coming if I can get in touch with her. Anyone interested?

thanks for posting that. It was absolutely beautiful!!! I think such counter protests should be staged everywhere they go!

Tom, of course you can call me Abi, just don't call me late to dinner!!! Scholarly input is most definitely valid! When I made reference to the scholars who think the feminine references indicate that goddess worship made it's way into Judaism, I guess I was just trying to present all the possibilities, not downgrade the validity of scholars. Contextually I was thinking more of those who simply see the Bible as something of a historical document and not so much the story of humanity and our relationship with God. In the end, it comes down to deciding which scholars make sense to you and which ones do not. Personally, I think there is validity to "goddess worship" in the sense that we recognize the feminine characteristics of God, although I am monotheistic. (I find it difficult enough to comprehend one God, trying to sort out multiple ones is just too confusing for me.) :D And I agree with you, God is probably neither male nor female but something that transcends gender. I too would be interested in what our Aramaic scholars have to say on the subject. I would guess that James Trimm is not hanging out here much anymore and that Robert has simply been busy with other things. But, that is just speculation on my part.

In Judaism, there is definite and necessary references to the feminine. It is found in reference to holy spirit. It is recognized every sabbath as the sabbath bride is welcomed in, it is most definitely recognized within the Jewish kaballah, which teaches of both the masculine and femine sides of God. Now, some scholars would say that those references simply indicate that paganism and the worship of a goddess or multiple gods made its way into Judaism. But, those who focus on the religious aspect (as opposed to merely a scholarly one) would say that is not so. In order for God to be complete, in order for man and woman to have been made in God's image, there has to be characteristics of both the masculine and feminine.

I am by no means a scholar in Aramaic, but James would be correct. From the Jewish perspective the holy spirit is referenced as a she.

I would start by asking you to define your terms. What is a non-believer? Is it someone whose doctrine differs from TWIs? differs from yours? Is non=Christian? How do you know if someone is "of God" or not? Does not God condone violence at times in the Bible? There were most certainly wars and the such documented there. David committed murder did he not? Was he a non-believer then?

Dooj I am so sorry for your loss. I cannot even begin to fathom what you and the rest of RumRunner's family must be going through.

(((Tom)))) Thanks!

Good night, teachme. I am off to sleep. I hope you think about what I said. I think there is a place for you here, we do get the TWI stuff. Not trying to chase you off, just hoping you will put some thought into what you are saying and why. Hoping you will spend some time listening to others as well. You might check out the About the Way Forums. You will learn a lot about how totally corrupt TWI is. How corrupt VPW was. He stole what he taught from others, he didn't get it by revelation. That might be a good place to start reading, some of the threads on the plagarizing VPW did. Those forums are also a good place to vent some of the hurt and anger you may feel because of what happened to you in TWI.

Even the name you have chosen to post under speaks volumes about how stuck you are in that spirit stuff of TWI. Why not TeachmeJesus, TeachmeChrist, TeachmeGod???? Why do you put a man first? Why do you want to follow an imperfect human being? I get it though, it is hard to undo the indoctrination of TWI. All of us have been there at some point in time. Your mistake is assuming we are still there. We aren't, you are. And that is okay, but it would be nice if you wouldn't put that upon the rest of us. You have found your way to one of the few places where there is a gathering of people who get the TWI experience. A place where you can find friends. But, part of that process includes being a friend. It includes honestly, humility, respect, etc. etc. We can share our experiences, our varied opinions, knowledge and wisdom. But I don't think any of us wants to lead the body you speak of, that would be overstepping boundaries.

You know next to nothing about me. There is nothing in the Bible, Old Testament or New Testament that "brings me down." What ticks me off, however, is the arrogance you display and the assumptions you make. You come in here first with posts that are so long and badly formatted (i.e. lacking paragraphs) that few can read tolerate trying to read them. Then you start talking about Pawtucket as if you know something about him. Rambling on about how he is going to bring the body together, rambling about how he has a secret, as if you know the first thing about him. Then you start a thread that appears to be little more than you making fun of Roy, as if you know something about him. Then you start talking as if you know something about what any one of us believes, with all of your talk about how we need to be free from the spirit stuff that you still cannot define. Now you want to speak as if you know something about me? Projection, teachmevp, that is what that is called. I think you do protest too much and that it is really you who needs to let go of that spirit stuff you keep rambling on and on about. Oh and btw, VPW and Martindale were NEVER the body's leaders. They were con artists, frauds, rapists, aduterers, but they were not the body's leaders. By your own bible the only head of the body is Christ. So why do you call someone else the body's leader??????

So you think we should give up that spirit stuff that you assume we believe, yet you cannot even define. And then what, should we follow you? Is that your point? That the only way is your way? You are going to teach us now?

WHAT spirit teaching stuff? Do you mean Christ in you the hope of glory? Do you mean the trinity? do you mean the tree spirits, sprites, angels, druids? Pretty much every person who posts here has different beliefs about different stuff. I tossed out darned near everything I was ever taught in TWI and started from scratch years and years ago. I am Jewish. Cman has beliefs that differ from mine. Sunesis has beliefs that differ from Cman and from mine. Roy (2027) has yet a different set of beliefs. We may have cross over areas where we agree, but we also have difference. And we offer each other respect for our differences and learn from each other because of our differences. You cannot presume to know what one of us believes without asking. You assume we believe something, but you are mistaken.

Oh please, come down off your self appointed pedestal already. What spirit stuff? Pretty damned vague when you think about it. Why do you ASSume any spirit stuff is important to anyone here? We are a diverse group with diverse beliefs. Most of us are long out and OVER TWI. You are the one who still seems to be stuck on Martindale and VPW, not us. And that's okay, everyone works through their stuff at their own speed. But don't project your issues on the rest of us.

While Paul may not spend a lot of time quoting the OT, he and Jesus both spent a lot of time discussing Jewish oral traditions that are not contained within the OT

You sound like you have a lot of stories you could tell. But, while I understand having respect and admiration for a person, you tend to come across as if you worship Ralph.

Pawtucket is not our leader. He is simply a kind man who runs a website. Ralph D. is not our leader. I don't know him very well, but from what I do know of him, I suspect he would not like the title. You are not our leader either. God is bigger than that and we do not need to follow men. Why do you think there is a mantle that needs to be passed? Martindale ran a multi-level marketing scheme or a cult (depending on your POV). That scheme was started by VPW. There is no mantle to pass. There never was.

I gave it up for lent I don't know whether what I was doing was genuine or not. I lean toward not. I remember as a child, playing with a childhood friend. We tricked a neighborhood boy into believing I was from another country. I pretended to speak in another language and my friend pretended she understood me. Was I speaking in tongues then and didn't know it? or was I doing what I did as a child when I spoke in tongues in TWI? I may never know. I certainly wasn't raised Christian, although I grew up in a small, predominantly Christian town. Picked up a few things. Even went to Catechism (have no idea how that is spelled) for a time, because my friends all got to go. :) Whatever, either way, now it just gives me the willies and reminds me too much of TWI. I tried doing it a few times when I couldn't sleep, because SIT always made me sleepy when I was in TWI. It doesn't work for me anymore, it doesn't even help me sleep.