Abigail

that was sweet DWW. And ya know, it's possible to do both. Well, instead of arguing with anger, simply present a perspective with respect. :)

:wub: Awwwe, thanks Larry. You're alright in my book too. I only take the position I do, because I know the many paths my quest has taken me on. I have traveled the road of TWI, agnosticsm, paganism, Native American religions, etc. etc. Currently I have found a home with my heritage. Who knows, one day maybe I will once again call myself Christian. I leave that in God's hands and trust He will direct my path.

Yes I see what you mean, I simply have a somewhat different perspective on it. Shifra, I apoligize for discussing you like this but am thankful that we are doing it in front of you and not behind your back. :) What I see is that Shifra saw things in Paul's writings that did not sit well in her heart and instead of trying to "force" herself to accept that which her heart does not accept, she is thinking through possible options. From that, she formed a theory that perhaps Paul was a spy. Now she is doing research to try to prove that theory. She is using a source you find questionable. Well, I would question the source too and I strongly suspect if Shifra has not yet questioned it, she will at some point down the road. I guess, in the end, I trust that Shifra's ultimate goal is to learn more about God and His will. I likewise trust that ultimately God will show her what she needs to see. I will add, it is also entirely possible that all of the arguments and possibilities presented by everyone in this thread is simply a part of that process.

Larry, I understand and agree with what you are saying. I likewise think Shifra is intelligent enough to see the same. I was not trying to imply that the writings of Barnabas are legitimate or illegitimate, I was simply trying to clarify to DWW the point Shifra was making. I am not Christian, ultimately it really makes no difference to me one way or another if Shifra's theory is proven to be correct or incorrect. What I do think is great is that she is questioning. That she is using the brain God gave her. That she is not limiting herself to a single source but is investigating multiple sources and will ultimately form her own conclusions as God works in her heart to do so. I know Roy in particular, also reads a lot of the writings from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other sources that never made it into the Christian bible. I think it is fantastic when he shares those bits and pieces that move and inspire him. Not because I necessarily agree or disagree, but because he is studying, learning, allowing God to show him things.

You are STILL missing the point, DWW and I don' t know how to say it any more clearly. The point was, Barnabas, who travelled with Paul, wrote that Jesus was NOT the Messiah. This would support Shifra's theory that Paul was a spy, a fraud. Your logic is somewhat fualty here: By that logic, how could Jesus be a son of David? Oh I know, through Mary. Okay, then likewise an Ismaelite messiah could be an Ishmaelite though the mother and still have the Y chromosone from God. Now I am not saying that is what occured or what would occur. I am simply saying it is equally possible. That is silly, DWW. You can do better than that!!! If someone write the words "Jesus is not the son of God" 16 trillion times, does that make it so?

DWW, I think you missed both my point, as well as Shifra's. If I understand correctly, Shifra wasn't trying to say Jesus wasn't the messiah or that the messiah would be a descendant of Ishmael. Shifra was simply pointing out that Paul's buddy, Barnabas said those things. That Barnabas believed the messiah would be a son of Ismael, not David. My point was that YOU believe Jesus was given a Y chromosone by God, because the gospels tell you Jesus was the son of God. Unfortunately, there is no scientific evidence to back up the notion that Jesus was the son of God or that God gave him the Y chromosone you speak of.

Jean, thanks for the response. Always through my TWI days I was confused regarding sin and sin consciousness. During my time with them it seemed the definitions were very muddied and fequently changed. Evan, I agree whole heartedly. Guilt (sin consciousness) is a useful emotion. Certainly, it can go to far and become condemnation (which I believe is useless), but guilt has a purpose. It tells us when we have done wrong and gives us an opportunity to correct the mistake. I see the laws in the same light. They serve a purpose, they teach us something. Certainly, they can be used improperly and result in destruction, bondage, etc. But when used properly, they teach us something about how to conduct our lives, proper respect for the planet we live on, and how to worship God.

How do you know the "Y chromosone" was placed in Jesus? Is there scientific evidence to support that theory?

I do not try to pursuade people to abandon their faith. I do try to share things that might add to their perspective or change their perspective, if they find it helpful. One of the things that occured to me over the years of posting here is that if you pull the rug out from under someone before they are ready, you can do them harm.

I hear ya Dot. Our house was broken into a couple of times last year (we know who did it, but of course cannot prove it in a courtroom). This year, someone came through and opened our back gate and let the dogs out of the yard while we were at work. Our yard is completely fenced in, most of it with privacy fencing. We now keep locks on the gates, the doors of course are locked. All first floor windows are locked except the two facing my neighbor's house. My neighbor watches over our place while we are at work and we watch his place while he is at work (he works nights we work days). So far, other than the one incident where someone opened the back gate this spring, it has been quiet (knock on wood). :) I will say this, my experience thus far is if you show no fear, you have fewer problems. I hold my head high and look them in the eye when we go by each other. I take my kids to the parks to play whether they are there or not. One of the kids who broke into my house last summer turns tail and runs when he see's me coming, because I made it very clear to him if he came near my house again he was likely to end up in a wheel chair.

BTW, if you can pick apart the Old Testament and say this prophet had this wrong and that prophet had the gods mixed up, etc., then why do you seem to take such great offense at Shifra for picking apart the New Testament and questioning Paul?

Because it never was ALL about the law. The law always was only PART. See, you sort of exemplify one of the problems I see with modern Christianity. You claim that the Torah is part of your Bible, but know so very very little about it. In addition, you have left out so much of the oral tradition that goes hand in hand with the Torah. It is like trying to run a race with a broken leg. BTW, what Lot did, he did in ignorance. He was drunk. The role his daughters played, though perhaps misguided, was still done with good intentions as well. If anything, your own example of Lot shows crystal clear that as I said, it never was ALL about the law. Forgiveness was ALWAYS available. God's love was ALWAYS available. and so on.

In many respects, I agree, Larry. I tend to view it as something of an evolutionary process. In the begninng, man was so stupid God had to explain to them that marriage was between a man and a woman, not a man and a donkey. God had to tell man about washing hands, how to prepare foods, what foods were healthy and what foods were not. Over time, man learned and evolved. People taught their children what they learned, those children learned even more and so had more to teach to their children, etc. etc. Okay, thanks for clarifying. If that is the case, I apologize DWW.

DWW, what I do in my responses - what you could do also if you want is this: 1. go into "reply mode" 2. scroll all the way down to the bottom of the page and you will see a link that says "review the complete topic" and click it. This will open a second window, separate from the window you are usiing for your reply. 3. In the "review window" highlight and copy the portion you want to quote and respond to. Then paste it into the reply window. 4. At the top of the reply window - 4 boxes to the right of the smily face are "quote" tags. highlight the section you just pasted and then click that button. That will wrap it in quotes so it will show up in the "white box" when you finally hit the "add reply" button after you have completed your post. 5. You can now add comments underneath the quote box 6. You can repeat this process as many times as you want, within the same "reply window" until you have said everything you want to say. Another option is to simply hit the "reply button" so that it quotes everything I wrote. Then within that quote you can write responses, highlight them, and hit the "b" on the upper left hand corner. This will cause your responses to be in bold and allow others to separate what you are saying from what was quoted. Thanks for explaining why you weren't responding. I hope that helps. :)

You are correct, many do not, though there are Messianic Jews who do. Likewise, there are those who believe he was a great Rabbi, well versed in not just Torah, but kabbalah as well. In fact, I would say it is the lack of underestanding of Kabbalah on the part of many modern Jews and Christians alike that gives rise to so much confusion regarding what Jesus taught. Not that I am by any means a scholar because I haven't even begun to scratch the surface, I've only studied enough to be fairly convinced there is a connection between what Jesus taught and what the mystical side of Judaism says.

There were also times when God told Israel to kill of nearly an entire generation of "Jews". There are places where God tells Israel to treat the "stranger" who comes among them very well, there are times when Jews and Gentiles dwelled among one another in peace and places when they did not. Understanding all of this requires a couple of "perception" changes. First, understand that the OT is seen on a number of levels, as God's blueprint of creation, God's instruction for how to live, a history of mankind and his relationship with each other and with God, etc. etc. Gee, DWW, that comes across as very condencending. It must be difficult to climb down from way up high where you reside to talk to us peons?

Here are some verses for you Larry: I guess the Jew and Gentile concept wasn't such a great mystery afterall, nor was it a "new teaching"

I am fairly sure there is not an OT verse that makes reference to "joint-heirs", but the OT says the Messiah will redeem the WORLD, that would incude everyone, not just Jewish people.

Which is an interesting concept, in and of itself because Judaism does not teach that Gentiles are excluded from God in the first place. Judaism teaches that EVERYONE, Jews and Gentiles alike, is a God's creation, God's child, etc. So why would that concept have even needed to be taught?

I cut and pasted this from the other thread. Figured it would keep things more on track within each thread and you were so kind as to start this one and all. :) The Old Testament God? That implies there is a New Testament God, then there is "the God of this World", I guess that makes a trinity Seriously though, how many gods do you believe in, DWW?

Well I for one am disappointed. DWW, I asked you what I thought were some very valid questions in this thread and the other thread and rather than taking time to answer them, you chose to engage in a battle of personalities, a battle of "he said, she said"/"he started it". The Old Testament God? That implies there is a New Testament God, then there is "the God of this World", I guess that makes a trinity Seriously though, how many gods do you believe in, DWW?

Perhaps this section from an article FOUND HERE will better state what I was trying to say.

Hiya Adios!! It is great to see you! How have you been? Where have you been? Haven't seen GingerTea or Mandii in ages and ages. CoolWaters isn't around anymore either.

The world conforms people via many methods, not just one. Law, religion, peer pressure, money, sex, promises of love, etc. etc. Who does the transforming, btw, in the verse you quoted? Become transformed by the renewing of the mind. What exactly does "renewing" mean? What exactly is "sin conciousness"? consciousness of whose sins? is that term "sin consciousness" even in the Bible?