Abigail

Bluz, you make a very valid point. While I don't think it justifies some of the harsher responses here, it does make them more understandable. Thank you for pointing that out.

Oldies, while you are correct that Jewish theology in general teachesthe same and does not BAN abortions, abortions are not in any way encouraged either, unless it is to save the life of the mother.

Sure, WhiteDove - everyone who needs a therapist is in bondage because they aren't getting the help they need from from the Sky Giant. Is that because they aren't believing big enough? Sure Jonny. And believing iin a God guarantees one is moral and upright and never parties or engages in multiple relations with the opposite or even same sex. :blink:

LOL - Okay, twist my arm! hehehehe I'm not giving up my OT studies, though someone suggested a thread doing some comparisons between Christianity and Judaism. I've been thinking about taking a peek at the gospels in that light anyway. But I don't want to derail this thread, so onward we go. :D

Not so Rascal. LCM taught it as well. I don't recall now if it was the Believers Family Class or Advanced Class now, but he taught it. BTW, that was me earlier, I posed under Sushi's name by accident.

Very cool CMan. I just may have to dig out a NT and start reading again :)

I know you didn't ask me, George, but I have to say, I most certainly am.

So true, Bramble. But I really hope WTH sticks around - he is such a shining example of what is wrong with TWI

You know, JohnIAM, I can't help but wonder just how godly you would think VPW's ministry was if you had been raped by him. Imagine a man you trust and respect, one you think has opened God's Word to you, suddenly pins you down and starts kissing you. You can smell the stale alcohol on his breath. Imagine yourself struggling, telling him no as you forces himself into your body. No, I don't think you are truly capable of imagining such a thing. See, I don't have to imagine it. My perp wasn't VPW, but that makes little difference because VPW was a perpetrator to more than one woman. However, if you were capable of truly imagining that - of truly putting yourself in that place, of feeling the shock, horror, revulsion, betrayal, confusion and shame, you might be singing a different tune. Yes, good things came out of TWI. But no, VPW doesn't deserve credit for them.

Actually, I did acknowledge he must have had redeeming qualities. What I said I could not give him credit for is having a godly ministry. In other words, I don't give VPW credit for the good people got out of TWI. That credit belongs to God and to many of the participants within TWI - people like Rascal, Suda, ExC - people who were honest and good from the get go and stayed honest and good. VPW doesn't fall under that unbrella in my opinion and therefore VPW does not get credit for anything good that came out of TWI.

But perhaps that is exactly the beauty of it. It's about you and God in your own unique relationship first, then your relationship with others. It's about my own unique relationship with God and others, it's about Cman's own unique relationship . . .

Sushi, my love, I wouldn't recommend sitting on the fence. It tends to give one a splinters in the tushy! :o

It is exactly for that reason that I have not posted on this thread. There are too many wonderful people for me to name them all and I would rather not name any one individual than miss any one individual who has been so helpful along my journey.

Suda, on one level I agree with you. It is said, within Judaism, that every person has some redeeming qualities, regardless of how many heinous qualities they also have. I can get behind that notion. However, knowing what rape does to a woman, I am too biased in my heart to give any credit to VPW in regard to "his ministry." I am sure you are correct, the man must have had some redeeming qualities. But I cannot give him credit for having a godly ministry, in light of how he used that ministry to hurt women.

No, Johniam (or Jean, whichever one of you wrote this). First, I am not a robot - I prayed to God and asked for His guidance and direction. I do believe he led me to a group of people who could and did help me tremendously. I also believe I blew it by not getting out when His still small voice told me to. Yes, I believe some of the people played a role in my getting healed, but the ultimate credit goes to God. Yes, I am thankful for those people (VPW was dead and gone before I ever came to TWI, he does not get credit as one of those people. VPW used God's Word to hurt people and God took that weapon and turned it to good to help people, so again VPW does not get credit). I don't believe in your devil Johniam. One of my big contentions with the teachings of TWI is how much power they give to the devil. At least by the time I left, it seemed that according to TWI the devil had far more power than God does. Shame on them!! They used the devil to instill fear instead of teaching God to instill peace!!!

I tend to agree with you, Rascal. I think the good that came out of TWI came because of God, not VPW. I believe God was able to work to heal people INSPITE of VPW and LCM, not BECAUSE of them. I have the same opinion regarding PFAL. God worked inspite of them, not because of them. God worked because of US, not because of VPW or LCM. VPW and LCM used God's Word as a weapon against people and God turned that weapon around and used it to heal some. Why some were more hurt than others, I cannot say for certain. I think some of it had to do with the closer you were to those of the ilk of VPW and LCM, the more likely you were to get burned. So, while I can honestly say I was healed of certain things while in TWI, I would not give credit for that healing to anyone but God.

Thanks for sharing that.

I was just sort of wondering if that was the "active" part of renewing your mind. When Paul says to be transformed by the renewing of your mind was he referring to that concept. That we are transformed (at least in part) by our time studying (exercising our intellect) so that we can understand and then act, with a fully persuaded heart. (Recognizing also that our passive part is God directing our steps and working in our hearts as we exercise our intellect). As opposed to what it became in TWI, that being we had to grin and bear it, act without understanding on things, even when they were in direct opposition to what was in our hearts. Ha, looking at the above it almost seems a no-brainer to me now. But having 10 years of the TWI version drilled into my head - well it has taken me some time to "see it" in this light. Start a thread!!! I'm game. :) I agree, the renewed mind as it was taught and applied by TWI during my time was extremely damaging. It made it darned near impossible to make a confident decision about anything. My mind telling me whatever the "present truth" was and my heart screaming it was wrong. Who to listen to, the mind or heart? Well I am supposed to renew my mind, not my heart right? Except that is so totally wrong. The mind and heart need to be in agreement!! And as I said, it really opened the door wide for all the legalism.

ROFLOL - you would get along beautifully with my husband. ;) When I was going to school I 4 pointed all my papers, in part because he corrected my grammer and spelling. And that was what we discussed and at times debated in other threads. Active v Passive. I would point you to them but I couldn't even begin to guess where they are or what they were called. It's also possible they aren't even on this version of the Cafe - they may have occured on the previous version. TWI's teaching on the renewed mind (at least during my tenure with them) sort of turned us into these "split personality" people. It also opened the door for all of the legalism. We no longer did things because we were persuaded in our hearts it was God's will, but because we had to "renew our minds" and do them. Thus saith the false Lord known as LCM.

Wow, Clay! That is really cool. I think I have been on the verge of seeing that for a couple years now, but missed it - getting caught up in the "return" theory. Appear - very very cool :)

I know what TWI taught, which ultimately meant we were supposed to grin and bear it or we were supposed to do mental gymnastics until we at least mentally ascended to whatever the demand of the day (read present truth) was. I think we have also had several discussions about WHO it was who did the transforming, the individual? God? Jesus? Anyway, as I was begining the new section of articles on this week's Torah portion, I read THIS ARTICLE first and it reminded my of that verse by Paul. Here are a couple of excerpts:

ROFLOL - welcome to the cafe Faint. I hope you enjoy the coffee and will stick around a while.

No, I didn't think you had implied that, but I've seen that issue come up in similar threads so I wanted to make my POV clear on that score, lest someone accuse me of implying that.

Having ascended to heaven is he now limited to heaven? Or did he appear to Paul? Or perhaps not, as has been implied in the Paulism thread. Hey, he hasn't appeared to me visually either, nor do I know many who would make that claim. But maybe the appearing isn't necessarily or always a visual appearing. Maybe it is an appearing in the heart, in the mind, via sound, maybe it is different for every individual. Maybe he did appear and the individual didn't recognize what they saw and someday that appearing will click in their mind and heart and it will all fall together and make sense. I don't know, Larry. I am speculating, thinking through ideas and possibilities. I still have the blinders of the teachings of TWI stuck in my brain when it comes to a lot of this NT stuff. I have a difficult time seeing past those teachings to consider other possiblities. Perhaps that is why I enjoy the OT so much - because TWI spent so little time there.

Ah yes, but what is the bigger point? Where did these values come from? Did they come from some evolution of mankind? Did they come from some athiest or agnostic philosopher? Did they come from religion? I think that is the point Def is making (Good to see you again, Def how are ya???) I would tend to think they come from the latter. However, I by no means take that to imply athiests or agnositcs are categorically immoral any more than I would assume religions people are categorically moral.