Abigail

Good to see you. Miss your words here and look forward to your return when things slow down for you.

Larry, I am very confused. No the words in red were not mine. What I said was that I had never really given any thought whatsoever as to whether or not JohnJ was justified. I guess in part because I am not entirely sure I understand your question. Is he justified by who? or what? God, man, himself? In the end, I am not sure that even if you answered those questions I would give it much thought. I just don't think in those terms. I am not sure I do that - do I? I have said that there were good and bad things that came out of TWI. I am not sure I have said one thing or another regarding VPW. I never met the man - yet his life did have an impact on mine. I don't know that I would give VPW the glory for helping people because I don't know that HE directly helped people. I know he started an organization. I know that there were people who were helped by that organization - but I don't know ifhe was directly involve in helping them - only indirectly via the starting of an organization. I do believe, based on what I have learned about his life, that he did directly hurt people. I do know that JohnJ started a website and his website helped people. I don't know of any testimonials where he directly and personally helped someone (doesn't mean he did, doesn't mean he didn't). As far as I know, he didn't directly hurt anyone either, beyond those hurts we all unintentially inflict upon one another over the course of life and is a part of being a NORMAL human being. I tend to give God the glory for the good in life. I also think that the people who play a role in that deserve some recognition as well. But as you pointed out - it can be easy to make an idol out of a man. Again though, that comes down to the individual. I can't say who has and has not idolized a person, place or thing, I can only say what I do with my own mind.

1. I have no opinion regarding John's "justification", really, I never even gave it a single thought. But yes, the work he has done has helped me and I suspect it has helped many others. The short version as best I can do it is that a minister I knew from another church (who may actually know John, now that I think back on it) brought me information from John's website long before I ever left TWI. At that time I sort of blew it off. But later, when things started to fall apart my mind went back to that information. When I was in the midst of making the decision to leave TWI back in 2000 and ultimately did decide to leave, John's website was one of the the links in a long chain of things that helped me come to that decision. There was information on his website that helped me put pieces of the puzzle together, helped me understand a bit of what I was experiencing and why.. That is about as much as I care to say publicly. If you have a question and want to PM me, that's fine - I can't promise I will answer, it depends on the question. 2. I don't know - who does get the praise? If John's site helps people heal is that a praisworthy event? Should God get praised for leading people to John's site and helping them be healed of hurts? Should John get less glory for how his websites heals people than VPW gets for "leading people to God"? I guess each individual must decide within themselves when and for what reasons to give glory to God or to give glory to an individual or both or neither.

I don't know Cman. There is still a boundary there. This is still the internet and people can appear honest and yet not be so. I am not referring to you or Dan here, just making a general statement. I think sometimes, because we all have that common background of TWI, that we slip into that mindset TWI once taught us, that we can leave our wallets with anyone in the auditorium (figuratively speaking) and all our money will still be there when we get it back. Dan, it has been a true pleasure meeting up with you in these forums and when you leave, I hope you will at least pop in from time to time to say hi. I will probably continue to hang out down here a bit more - I enjoy the exchange of information. But I keep learning over and over again that "sharing fully" as you put it, is a risky business when it comes to the great wide open internet and when you lose on such a gamle, you could potentially lose very big.

I don't know Larry, as someone who never knew VPW, but recognizes his life had an impact on mine, I find the information about RTHS interesting. Does it have an impact on how I live my life today - Nope, not at all. Nonetheless, I have spend some amount of time trying to figure out what was good and bad about TWI and how much of the bad was purely manipulation for selfish purposes based on the part of various leadership. Why do I care? I don't know beyond some part of me still wants to try and make sense of it all, it was 10 years of my life afterall - and the last 5 of them became pretty horrible. Even to this day I still deal with it, there are still "issues" stemming from my involvement. So such information is relavant in my mind.

I suppose there could be as many reasons as there are athiests. Why would a religious person want to discuss what atheists don't believe in? ;)

NIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How very very appropriate! and don't forget who their really God (money) is.

Very well said!

I guess from a scholarly, intellectual standpoint it could be interesting. But I have to wonder what bearing it has on how one lives their life today? I wonder the same thing about 2 v 4 crucified, does it really make a difference in the grander scheme of things? Will it cause me to change the way I think or behave?

No problem Out there. I came at you with both barrells and I know it. But the point I was trying to make is no where does it say these forums are for Christians only. Not once has this place ever been promoted as that. If I thought for one second GSC was for Christians only I probably wouldn't spend much time here. Not because I have a problem with Christians, but because it wouldn't necessarily be the appropriate site for me. There are people here from all over the spectrum - numerous branches of Christianity, pagan, jews, athiests and agnostics are the ones that come to mind. There may very well be others who aren't comfortable revealing that personal part of their lives. I came here because this was an EX-TWI website, not a Christian websit and not a non-Christian Website. Now you can argue Wayfers were Christian, but I suspect there are some who would argue in return that what TWI taught was not Christianity but was a made-up as it went along religion. My initial interest in this place had nothing to do with religion - it had to do with coming to understand that there were thousands of people who experienced something very similar to what I experienced while in TWI. It had to do with discovering I wasn't alone out here. My interest in doctrinal issues came later. Over my time here, which encompasses about 7 years and I think 3 different servers/versions of Greasespot, I have considered myself Christian, agnostic, pagan, and now I have returned to my roots of Judaism. I have no idea where my path will lead me down the road. Likewise no one, not even Seth, can say for a certainty what he will believe 10 years from now. Never, Ever, Ever do I want to see this place become one that is exclusive to one religion, one set of beliefs.

this aint the boy's scouts either, in case ya hadn't noticed :blink: Garth, there are also a lot of religious people around the forums who have been very respectful of your choice. It is possible to disagree with the notion of a God and even speak of such disagreement in a respectful manner. And honestly, do you really want to stoop the the level of the very people who have so offended you? How is that in any way better? Sheeesh, I feel like I am talking to my kids now. I am constantly reminding one of them that two wrongs don't make a right.

Gee Out there, as a non-Christian, I spend far more time in the doctrinal forum discussing God and Eternity than you do. In fact, I rarely see you down there. hmmmmmm So when is it you talk about God and Eternity? How is it your behavior on this thread is any better than Seth's?

Ya know, Seth, it is one thing to come here and say what you believe. It is another thing entirely to be rude and obnoxious to those who believe differently. Not much different than being in TWI, IMO. TWI liked to put down people who believed differently too, or did you forget that lesson?

What the H E L L????? This is NOT a Christian website. There are many posters here who are NOT Christian, including me and I have NEVER attempted to harass or provoke someone!!!!! If you can't handle that, perhap you are the one who should just NOT COME BACK HERE

RChild, I don't think what I said was so different from what RGirl said - we just used different terminology, different phrasing. To both of the "Girls" I'm going to be rather bold and plain here - it appears as if there is a disagreement between the two of you that goes beyond the philisophical (sp?) question of conditional or unconditional love. Sometimes, when are emotions are high, we tend towards feeling defensive of our position/point of view. When that occurs we don't always say things the way we intend to - strong emotions can (literally) make it difficult for a person to think. The other thing that occurs is that it can be difficult to see behind the words to the heart and intent. Sometimes we have to ask ourselves what is more important, winning the argument or preserving the relationship? Not a question I can even begin to answer in this circumstance, but one I pose for consideration across the board. I know nothing of specifics or circumstances, but the exchange here would indicate this is something deeper than it initially appeared to be.

Perhaps it is just as Cman said, the NT can be found within the OT too :)

I guess it depends on your pov Oldies. There are a number of things that are not permitted on the sabbath or certain holidays that are not expressly forbidden in the O.T. They are in the Midrash but based on the OT - they relate to things that fall into the category of work, for instance. Another way to look at it, doesn't Romans say somewhere that all things are permitted but not all things are not expedient? I guess that could be applied to abortion as well. One could argue based on that verse alone, that abortion is permitted. One could also argue, based on that verse alone, that an abortion may not be expedient. I am not arguing against abortion overall in this thread. I have made my opinion on abortion clear enough in the political forums and I am a pro choice person. But I would certainly say absolutely no one should ever, ever pressure a woman into such a huge decision.

Awwe, thanks RChild. Love for ourselves is a tricky thing, no? I sometimes think God forgives us more readily than we forgive ourselves, though sometimes it is reversed too. :) One question I ask myself when I have to make a tough decision is, can I look myself in the mirror and still like what I see if I do this or that? One of the reasons I am asking so many questions of you, is usually, when we have such a big question as yours, when we are searching so intently for such an important answer, it is because it is relevant to something that is currently going on in our lives. Okay, you asked for my opinion and I will give it. My opinion isn't so different from RGirl's post previous to this one. I might use slightly different terminology in that I differentiate between love and what I will allow in my life, but the overall intent and application is the same. I would say God loves us all unconditionally but he doesn't like the way we behave. I would say, based on the OT, that there have been times when God even "walked away" or "turned his back" when people were behaving especially evil. Then there is the flood - God killed or allowed the devil to kill (depending on your particular beliefs) the entire population of people minus Noah and his family, because of the evil they committed. I think God probably loved those people, but he had boundaries regarding what he would allow them to do - how far he would allow them to go in the evil they committed. I have similar boundaries in my own life. There was a time when someone I loved dearly was making choices that were hurtful to her life. Those choices also negatively affected my life to the degree I allowed her into my life. Eventually I had to draw a boundary and remove her from my life for a time. I still loved her, I still worried about her, but I couldn't help her and I couldn't fix her, because she had her own free will. The only thing I could do was stop her actions from negatively affecting my own life and pray for her. Thankfully, the natural consequences of her actions eventually caused her to recognize her own destructive choices and she learned to make better choices. At that point we were able to rebuild a relationship and today she is one of my best friends. So yes, I believe God loves us unconditionally. But I also believe God puts in place boundaries and natural consequences that we must endure when we behave badly. Sometimes those consquences are mild like the pain of a stubbed toe, sometimes those consequences are carried with us through the rest of our lives like a lost limb, sometimes those consequences can even be deadly.

One more question, Is your love for yourself conditional or unconditional?

Thanks for clarifying RChild. I understand your dilemna and I can offer my opinion, but that is all it would be, my opinion. So if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you some more questions. :) If God's love is conditional - will it change the way you behave, the choices you make? If God's love is unconditional - will it change the way you behave, the choices you make? See, in my mind, that is of utmost importance. If we use God's love to justify harmful behaviors (harmful to ourselves or others), then are we really being honest? Are we really loving God? Does it matter if we are honest or loving toward God? I guess, I am thinking that while in one sense your question is very important, in another it may be irrelevant. We can say God loves us conditionally and I already broke the conditions therefore it doesn't matter if I go out and do bad things. We can say God's love is unconditional, therefore it doesn't matter if I go out and do bad things. OR We can say God loves me (conditionally or unconditionally, it doesn't matter) and because I also love God, I am going to do my best to make good decisions in my life. I am going to do my best to make decisions that are good for me and/or good for those around me. Granted, that is very oversimpified, sometimes what is good for you is not so good (at least on the surface) for someone else. But I think for now, oversimplified will do. :)

Okay, back to the beginning, now that I know I am replying to one person in this post and another in the second post! LOL LOL What TWI taught was never very clear on many issues, RChild. They often said one thing and practiced another, at least on a leadership level. They also taught things with a twist so they could justify their own bad behavior - again on a leadership level. (I specify that because the vast majority of people were good honest people). What exactly is it you are trying to figure out - conditional love verses unconditional love? Can you define the terms? What those terms mean to you? Do you know why you are asking these questions at this time? Do you know what sits peacefully in your heart? We can debate all the verses and their various meanings, but I think you will be right back to, "I've seen both sides of the argument "proven" by using the same scriptures, so which way is it?" That is why I ask the questions I did. :)

Thank you for showing me that, Eyes, I missed that completely!!!!!

Wow Rainbow - there's a lot to respond to and I will try to come back to this. Edited for now

:P :wub:

Where does it say in Jewish law that abortion is permitted? Same question in reverse. Jewish law is based primarily on the O.T. From that Rabbi's for centuries upon centuries back have debated the meanings and applications of the laws of the O.T. Those debates are called Midrash. It is within the Midrash that you will find that abortion is generally only permitted to save the life of the mother. This is based upon OT scriptures which you are aware of via VPW/TWI and the commandment that we be fruitful and multiply. The reasoning is that having children is a Mitzvah. A fetus is a life, but not a SOUL life, until it takes it's first breath. That potential soul life, once conceived, should be preserved and brought into fruition whenever possible. However, because a couple can go on to conceive again provided the mother lives, but cannot conceive again once the SOUL life of the mother is lost, abortion is acceptable to save her life.