Abigail

Yes, I can see how such videos would be useful for outreach, in retrospect. How many men here have said they initially got involved with TWI because they were attracked to some cute girl? :blink: How many doors did you knock on, only to find the person inside praising you for helping them be healed of their desire to have sex with animals? :blink: Oh, and I'm certain the "homo purges"of the 90's that LCM instituted healed many a "deviant" :blink: Oldies, sometimes I think you are very niave. :) Larry, yes the world is most certainly changing. Ever watch the cartoon network??? Lordy!!!

OMG, Larry!!!! Well, like I said, there is some crazy stuff at college campuses these days. As a parent, I would never spend tuition money for one of my kids to take such a course!!!! Nor, again, do I see the necesity of it. I am not against sex education courses, but I don't think the Yale example is a necessary version of one. I took sex ed in high school. Not the usual videos of elementary school days, and not a one or two day "seminar". A full semester, credit earning class. We did not watch any graphic movies or look at graphic pictures. There was no need for it. We did have plenty of very open and honest discussions and debates about sexuality that covered a range of topics from abstinence to homosexuality. We discussed various means of birth control, we discussed gender roles and gender differences. It really was a very good class. But again, there was no need for graphic images of any kind.

I have no problem with that, as long as it's Starbucks!!!!

Well I never took any college courses that had graphic depictions of sexual behavior. Nor can I think of why a course would have need of such. I spent 6 years on a college campus while my mother studied psychology, I don't recall ever hearing of such a course. I live right next to that town now and have a cousin attending that college, still haven't heard of it. Does it mean it doesn't exist? heck no - there is some weird stuff on college campuses these days!!! But again, I would question the need for such. I don't think the 13 year old girl who took the class when I did had that option. I have a suspicion her parents would not have allowed her to. Likewise, while I could have walked out, I am pretty sure I would have experienced the wrath of God, so to speak, from my leadership and husband if I had.

Well for the life of me, I fail to see why one has to watch even 1 second of a video like that to be aware that such things go on in the world. And personally, I think being shocked by that is a healthy response that one should retain!!!! When I took CFS in the early 90's, I was very uncomfortable with all of the nude pictures, etc. Not because I am ashamed of the human body, but because I think there is a proper setting and context for nudity. Add to that, I was sitting in a class with a 13 year old child, who was quite painfully embarassed by the class. Add to that, the coordinator of the class seemed to think it was perfectly appropriate to position two nude barbie dolls in a "69" position on top of the television, even with the 13 year old child in the class.

Shifra, I am glad you are home safe and sound. I am also glad our home remained safe. We have lost over 28,000 acres of forrest land in our beautiful Upper Penninsula and the fire rages on. One of our posters here has a beautiful piece of land, on a lake with a cabin, that I believe is still outside the permiter of the fire. On that land is a white pine that if I recall correctly, they managed to spare from the loggers and is now over 200 years old. Such a loss that would be, if it were to burn now. On the other hand, as destructive as forrest fires are, they are also a part of the life cycle. The loss of vegitation and animals from such a fire will lead to new birth, new growth, in years to come.

Wrds and Dan, those were both beautiful and moving pieces you posted!!!!! One of the things that drew me to Judaism (beyond an interest in my heritage) was my loathing (sp?) of the "us v them" mentality within so many Christian denominations. Oh, don't misunderstand, it still exists within Judaism to some extent here and there too. But it isn't so much a doctrinal issue within Judaism as it is a reaction to WWII and other historical persecutions. I see it within my cousin from time to time, as he closes the curtains before begining a Seder Supper, etc., I hear in in subtle remarks he makes. But I can brush it off a bit more easily because I don't believe he has been taught that fear doctrinally, but rather it was passed down to him through his parents who were both concentration camp survivors. I still don't like it, but I understand where it comes from. I have checked out a Unitarian church a time or two, and who knows maybe I will give it a try again someday. However, my impression was that they were more of a political church than a seeking church. I come from a politically active family, and I am also politically active in my own areas of interest and in my own way, but that isn't what I go to church for. Dan, I am curious, why could you not "sit still" at a UU service?

I understand what you are getting at Sky. I can't help but wonder though, people who believe their actions make no difference - people who believe once they are born again they can do whatever they want because they are going to heaven and all hell can't stop them, people who believe they are predistined for heaven so they can behave as badly as they'd like . . . . . What do they do with all of the verses in the OT, Gospels, and NT that tell them this just isn't so??? Okay, I get how they dismissed the OT (for our learning, yada yada yada). If one is a staunch believer in administrations I suppose one could even argue we no longer have to love our neighbors, etc. etc. But even within the Epistles there are plenty of verses about not stealing, about adultery and idolotry, about taking care of widows, and so on. So in the end it all comes down to picking out one or two verses that fits their own brand of theology and ignoring the rest. Sure, people may follow and get caught up in that for a time too. But I go back to the idea that if one is sincerely seeking, one will find. God will eventually show them that they are missing much of the picture. On the other side, and in light of your overall point here, I think it is good to make known out such potentially harmful doctrine, as you have done here. It is good to hone critical thinking skills as we discuss various doctrins as well. :) That is one of the things I love about the doctrinal section here. I know of no other place where I can share what I am working through in my heart and mind, AND learn what others are working through in their hearts and minds - with no requirement that we all agree all of the time AND a large amount of respect for each other throughout the process.

If an unhealthy germ is a devil spirit because it has life of its own, are all the healthy germs that crawl in and on us every moment of the day angel spirits? If so, how come no one in TWI ever taught us about them?

Okay, let me see if I am understanding this right. One side says you cannot be a member of the elect (those "predestined" for "heaven") without faith. The other side (Calvin) says God has already "predistined" you for "heaven" regardless of whether or not you have faith. Am I following? If so, I would say it is a silly argument because God knows whether or not you will have faith anyway, in his foreknowledge, so the point is moot. But even that is sort of misleading in terms of what I personally believe. I believe one way or another we will all come to know God. I don't know all the ins and outs of how, but I believe that is how it is, even the Hilters and Dalmers of this world. I don't believe someone wakes up one day and thinks "gee, I think I'll go out and kill millions of people today" or "gee, I'm hungry, perhaps I can find someone to carve up and eat." I think those people have a sickness. Maybe it is biological, something wrong with their brain or chemistry. Maybe it is emotional, scarring on their hearts and minds because of suffering they endured. Maybe it is spiritual. I don't know. But I believe God can and will heal them in His own way and His own time. And yet, despite all of that, I also firmly believe it does matter what we do with the gift of life as a human being on this planet.

Dan, I would love it if you would start that thread someday, when you have the time and inclination. :) Me too Evan. It is much better that condemning yourself or twisting yourself in knots to try to be perfect so nothing bad ever happens again. It is also, IMO, better than just blaming God and giving up.

I have re-read this entire thread 3 or 4 times now, there is so much here - - the original question and many possible and wonderful tangents. Cman, I had to re-read your initial post a few times to really get what you were saying, but I think you offered a number of valid points. 1. Sky points out that "pure" (for lack of a better term at the moment) Calvanists (?) believe God "elects" (?) certain people who are then predestined (?) for heaven no matter what they do in this life and others for hell. I think Cman, you were saying this is not so and to think this way is to throw God's grace back in his face? Like you, I think in the end we will all have our place with God. Even the Hitler's and Jeffrey Dalmers of this world. At the same time, I do think what we do here and now matters as well. Not because (as twi taught) we will get rewards (which would, ironically, require works, no?) but because it is all part of the process of becoming. Becoming what? I don't have an answer to that, but it is something even better than we are now. I don't know how the Htlers and Dalmers of this world will complete the process of getting there (wherever exactly there is), but I'd bet money on it that God does. I think all of our lives have a purpose, really a multitude of purposes. And the ultimate purpose may be one we aren't even aware of until the next life.

Man there is so much stuff in this thread!!! You know, I didn't think this would be a thread that would catch my interest overly much, seemed a bit too intellectual/scholarly to me, but now I am interested!!!!! Sky I will write some responses in bold within your post. BTW, it is nice to see you again! Sorry I was so rude to you earlier.

The Sabbath is a wonderful time of resting and renewing so we can start the new week fresh and ready. We don't do it perfectly around my house either, nor do we do it particularly formally. I have two very active and energetic young boys and when dinner is on the table they are READY TO EAT!!! So, we eat dinner before sunset and light the candles afterwards. That way everyone is relaxed and peaceful. See, the sabbath is for us, it is OUR rest. I don't think we have to strain at gnats either. You know, its funny, in all my studies I somehow missed the blessing for the children. (I suck at the details within the rituals - lol- mostly I focus on the intent behind them). That is truly a beautiful thing and a great reminder for the sabbath. After a long week of working, taking care of the home, rushing kids to and from various events, it is easy to get cranky and become lax in reminding them of how much we love them, how precious they are to us, and how much joy they bring to our lives. I sort of did this in the Calvin thread, but I will toss it in here too. Perhaps others would like to offer insight as well - which I always appreciate. :) I've been giving a lot of thought to some of Cman's posts regarding being born again and it being a process. I think SirG may have said something along the same lines in the past, but I never really "got it" before. In TWI we were taught a formula. We do Romans 10:9 and 10 and poof we were magically born again. All the bad was washed away and we started out new and fresh. If we made in mistakes from that point on we simply asked for forgiveness and all was new and fresh again. We could do that over and over and over again. It didn't even really require much thought, introspection, or even self honesty. Nice, easy, and quick. But is birth quick, easy and simple? It is a process, it requires effort mentally, physically and emotionally. It doesn't happen in an instant, it takes time. For humans it takes 9 months. For some animals the gestational period is shorter and for some longer. So maybe the same is true of becoming born again. Maybe it is a process that occurs over time. It may start with a hunger to know God, it may start with an acceptance of Jesus' teachings, I don't really know what the exact point of conception is. The concept of rebirth being a process instead of a simple easy formula would also fit with Judaism and Kabbalah. In that sense, all of life could be taken as the birthing process. Or perhaps some portion of life is the birthing process, some point is toddlerhood, then adolecense. I don't know, I'm still mulling it over.

Ya know - this is probably more doctrinal than About the Wayish, but I have to say Oldies, I think they were fearfully and wonderfully made in the womb by God. What they chose to do with their lives after they were born is another thing entirely. Just my opinion for the two cents or so it may be worth.

I am not sure if this is the right thread for this or not, but I thought I would toss this in anyway. I've been giving a lot of thought to some of Cman's posts regarding being born again and it being a process. I think SirG may have said something along the same lines in the past, but I never really "got it" before. In TWI we were taught a formula. We do Romans 10:9 and 10 and poof we were magically born again. All the bad was washed away and we started out new and fresh. If we made in mistakes from that point on we simply asked for forgiveness and all was new and fresh again. We could do that over and over and over again. It didn't even really require much thought, introspection, or even self honesty. Nice, easy, and quick. But is birth quick, easy and simple? Ha, if you have ever given birth to a child, I'm betting you would say NOOOOO!!! It is a process, it requires effort mentally, physically and emotionally. It doesn't happen in an instant, it takes time. For humans it takes 9 months. For some animals the gestational period is shorter and for some longer. So maybe the same is true of becoming born again. Maybe it is a process that occurs over time. It may start with a hunger to know God, it may start with an acceptance of Jesus' teachings, I don't know what the exact point of conception is. What does this have to do with grace? Well I imagine we require God's grace before we begin the process and throughout the process. I imagine we may very well require God's grace after the birth has taken place too. But I think there is a verse somewhere that talks about using God's grace as an excuse to justify bad behavior. I don't believe that was God's intent in offering us grace. Grace is there to help us through the birthing process, like the ambilical cord that supplies the fetus with nutrients. Something like that.

You ask some very good questions here, Rascal. Why not ask the "Household" to pray for VPW's healing?

Hi Sky, okay I will see if I can offer anything useful. I guess the way your posts here and in The Way Forums read to me, it seemed like you had your mind pretty made up and I didn't want to fight with you. :) I think in all things there is a balance, a moderation. If one is truly seeking God, it doesn't matter if you believe it is all "grace without works" or "works without grace" because either way you will be actively doing the best you know how to be pleasing unto God and will therefore be doing some good things. Likewise, because we are all human, we will do some bad things along the way too. Anything can be taken to an extreme. One can say it is all grace and therefore I can do whatever I want to, no matter how evil or hurtful, and I will still go to heaven. Therefore, I'm going to grab all the cookies for myself and it doesn't matter who I have to step on to get them. One can also say it is all works and no grace and work themselves or those around them into a fear and doubt filled frenzy as they spend a miserable life bending themselves over backwards and twisting themselves in knots to try and please God. So, rather than trying to figure out if it is all grace or it is all works, I simply do my best to do those things which I believe are good and helpful and I do my best to avoid those things which I think are hurtful and destructive. I trust God to know my human failings and forgive me when I get it wrong. I am also wondering exactly how you define a cult. That too might be useful in this thread.

I'll play, Dan. :)

You seem to have your opinion pretty firmly set, so I'm not sure I see the profit in commenting. :)

Perhaps there is a lesson in reverse psychology here. Hound your kids to go into the corps and they may actually rebell and decide to go to college instead!

Will keep you in my prayers Shifra.

I had similar thoughts PMosh and thought you said it much more diplomatically that I could have - which is why I held my tongue.

Actually Spot, I can and did say it regarding myself in this thread somewhere. I want to point that out because I do think it is at the very least entirely likely god led me to TWI. I did receive some wonderful healing of the heart and mind during my early days with TWI. I think God also let me know when it was time to leave and my mistake was in not listening to that still small voice at that time. I have also said I could not speak for anyone else and whether or not they were led to TWI. And none of the above is meant as a defense for VPW, LCM or any of the other higher ups who played a role in hurting the men and women who were involved with TWI. I never met VPW, LCM or any of the other higher ups. The credit for healing I received during those early days of TWI goes to God, then to those people who were in my fellowship who were so loving and patient with me, and I get some of the credit too, because I did the work. :)