Abigail

Bingo!!! T-bone gets the door prize!!!! Moving the boundaries a couple inches at a time. Before you know it, no one even bats an eye in surprise when a man takes a woman's hand and places it "on his pants" because he is so happy he has an erection. Much of what went on in TWI involved inching personal boundary lines back until someone could eventually jump right over them and no one would even notice. In fact it is interesting, if you follow people's stories regarding their experiences with TWI (and it doesn't seem to matter what years they were involved) many will say the first 3 - 5 were great and then things started getting weirder and weirder. I wonder if that is because it took 3 - 5 years to move boundaries back to the place where they could then be jumped without the recipient putting up much resistance. BTW, someone, mentioned in this thread that he/she was "molested" in their late teens. There are studies that show, many of the people who have been sexually assaulted sufer from boundary issues afterwards. The younger you are the more likely and more severely this will occur. Just food for thought. Healthy boundaries are crucial to healthy living, IMO.

ROFLOL I had a hinky (hell if I know either) the first time I ever saw LCM teach live. Too bad I didn't listen to that hinky.

From the same thread re: Christian Family and Sex and a man who got "healed" during the class. By Raf (the weatherman : )

I tend to agree with these concepts. I think we create our own hell via the consequences of our own actions. Or we can live in paradise on earth via the same.

Perhaps you are, perhaps you are not, Larry. In the end, only JohnIAm can clarify that. But again, what was the point of relaying the story itself? Would it not have been sufficient to say a man took the class and was healed of impotence? Was it really necessary to tell us about how he put this woman's hand on his pants so she could take note of his erection? I've known JohnIAm as he presents himself around these forums for a long time now. I've also exchanged some rather pleasant and helpful emails with him in the past. One thing I am pretty certain of, he knew the reaction he would get by posting the story with the detail he did.

Oh yeah, I'm sure it would be very long indeed. Nor was I necessarily meaning YOU should do the whole thing. Was just thinking it would look interesting all layed (sp?) out together.

Really, Larry, I have to go with Raf on this one. I cannot think of one excuse, short of dementia, that would explain how this could possibly simply be innocent and thoughtless. It shouldn't require thought at 70 years old, it should just be ingrained by then that such behavior is not appropriate. I know, it sounds harsh and judgmental, and I certainly have no way of knowing the heart and mind of the man in question, but the entire scenario is simply beyond me. Add to that, I cannot imagine ANYONE getting healed by that class. I know, I am not God and do not always understand His ways, so I can leave open the notion that it is possible, I simply can't imagine it.

Very interesting stuff, Cman. It would really fit well with some of the things I've been reading by Anthony Buzzard. I could be interesting to toss in verses regarding Heaven and Resurrection to the mix and see what jumps out then as well. :)

ROFLOL!!! I have to get Sushi to come down here and tell some of his jokes! He has some great ones, but unfortunately I can never remember them. Of course, this works well for him because he can tell them to me over and over again and always get a laugh.

Thanks, Dan, but honestly it is simply a matter of having been around this place for nearly 7 years and therefore having plenty of time to get to know the "regulars," a number of which I have also gotten to know via PM and emails, and a growing handful of which I have even had the pleasure of meeting face to face. For me this place is a godsend. With a husband, two young boys, and a job, I simply don't have a lot of left over time for going out for coffee a few times a week with friends, etc. Add to that my skittishness of organized religion and my loathing of gossip and it becomes very difficult to find people who are willing to have discussions of this nature on a regular basis. Here I have nearly the best of it all. The availability to come and visit during times that fit my lifestyle. The freedom to learn at my own pace without compulsion, and a group of people who may not all believe as I do (which is great, IMO) but are still interested in learning. The only downside is that I haven't gotten to meet more people face to face and I don't get to see those I have met as often as I would like to.

Well, accuse me of being in the dark ages, but I think there is NOTHING perfectly innocent about a man behaving in such an inappropriate manner with a woman who is not his wife or even his girlfriend in a public setting. Heck, I would have found it inappropriate even if the woman HAD been his wife and it was in a public settting. I wonder Johniam, if you would have found it so perfectly beautiful if the woman had been your wife? I wonder how your wife would have felt had she been the woman? I dunno, maybe both of you would have been fine with that, I sure as hell would not have been.

That's a lot of IFs, really. Honestly, I don't know if I would have stayed IF re: VPW. He was gone before I ever got involved. He never directly harmed my life. Indirectly? That's another question. IF VPW had been all of those things, would there have been an LCM? Would LCM have become the man he did? Would so many have been spared the hurt they experienced?

I will add this, too Sky. I get what you are saying about the "danger" of Calvinism, in terms of the notion of the election and that Calvin says it doesn't matter what we do with our lives here on earth (if that is in fact what he says). However, I think there is equal danger in the hellfire and brimstone teachings of eternal damnation. Both teachings serve to discourage people from seeking. Afterall, what is the point in seeking God if he has already determined you will or will not receive "salvation", "eternal life" whatever you want to call it. Likewise, if we are somehow supposed to live our lives perfectly, avoid every land mine that is placed before us, in order to receive those things, then again I say why bother trying? It was the very notion, instilled in me as a young girl, that I was already and forever outside of God's love that played such a large role in my "eat, drink and be merry" attitude during my teens and very early 20's. An attitude that caused more hurt and destructive behaviors than I care to share in such a public forum. I was the "dirty Jew" in a very small, very Christian town. I don't recall my parents ever teaching me much of anything about God or Judaism, yet even as a very very young child I believed in God. I was a lonely kid so I talked to God a lot when I was very young. But at some point, or most likely numerous points in time, I picked up on what the varous churches taught regarding hellfire and damnation. At some point I came to believe that because I wasn't born a Christian, because of certain other events that happened when I was still quite young, I was hellbound and all heaven couldn't stop me. From that point and for many many years to follow, I simply figured why bother? There's nothing I can do to change it, it makes no difference what I do. I hurt a lot of people during those years. I hurt myself too, perhaps even most of all. That was one of the big draws to TWI for me, the acceptence, the notion that God not only loved me, but forgave me for all my sins (some of which I now recognize weren't even my sins - but as a child I thought they were). You mentioned pedophiles in one of your posts and said something to the effect of "what could possibly be left to save?" Not an exact quote but a paraphrase. Have you ever known one? I mean really, really known one? I haven't. BUT I do know women who were molested by their fathers when they were children. I know those women, as much as they may hate what their father did to them, as much as they hate that part of their father that made him capable of doing that to them, they still love their fathers too. They still see within their fathers things of value, things that are good. We all carry within us some bad and some good. We all do some things that are bad and some things that are good. Really, in the end, it is all a matter of degree. Now, I would be one of the first in line to vote for the death penalty for the Dalmer's of this world. I believe as humans, as a society at the very least, we do not yet have what it takes to heal such people and therefore the only thing we can do is protect ourselves and our society from them. But I am not so bold or arrogant as to think that just because we have not yet found a way to heal them, that God cannot. Perhaps, for whatever reasons, He doesn't do that while they are living in this life, but I firmly believe there is more to come after this one and I firmly believe God is able to purify those souls, to remove the sickness and restore them whole.

Sky, I will go back and look over what you said some more and I may have some additional comments, but this is what comes to mind first and foremost. The notion that we must do a), b, and c) and must not do e), f), and g) lest we find ourselves cut off and condemned to eternal damnation, eternal separation, the second death, the lake of fire - whatever negative eternal consequence you want to toss into the mix, smacks of fear motivation to me. Fear motivation just doesn't work for me on oh so many levels. Been there, done that in the 90s of TWI. It sucks. Nothing is done for love then, it is done for legalism. Fear is the food of legalism. Were you around for LCM's teachings on "abundant sharing"? How God wouldn't even spit in your direction if you weren't at least abundantly sharing/tithing? (I can't recall at the moment which it was, but the point was, if you aren't sending TWI your money, God won't cover you with his hedge of protection, God won't teach you, God won't even notice you). That about did me right in on givng TWI money. From that point onward, I could NOT give money to TWI out of love, because from that point on I did it out of fear. Sucked the joy right out of the entire thing. Perfect love casts out fear, no? But hellfire and damnation instills fear and therefore cannot, in my mind, be perfect love.

Thanks Dan. I did find that site earlier today, but somehow missed the search engine, and thus could not find the information pertinent to our conversation. :) I have since noticed the search engine and am now working my way through a rather lengthy article. It may take me some time to process it - I think I am reaching information overload in this thread - lol lol. I'll go back to reading for a bit anyway. :)

Dan this has caught my interest and I started to google Anthony Buzzard, but I am almost out of time for the moment. I have to leave soon and go pick the boys up from day camp. I will come back to this later tonight when I have time. I get the impression Anthony Buzzard has a lot of dissenters (?sp?) and I would prefer to start with a sight that tells me what HE said, as opposed to a site where others are quoting and possibly misquoting what he said.

And I do buy it, Oldies. At the same time, I will add, that as with all things there is a balance to be found. I can look at the life of Jeffrey Dalmer and I may be able to find good things that he did at some point in time in his life. I may even be able to empathize with him for the horrid childhood he endured (if that were so, I really have no idea) but at the same time, I can recognize that his life took a wrong turn somewhere and he would be a danger to society if we simply let him loose on the people again. I also recognize the analogy doesn't fit, in that VPW is dead. In any case, I guess I don't really expect you to answer the questions Oldies. I think I was thinking out loud more than anything. Believe it or not, I do try to see the valid arguments on all sides of this issue. I never knew the man, he never directly hurt me personally. That doesn't mean I can simply turn a blind eye to the people I know were hurt by him. I can't just "invalidate" them by seeing only the good and ignoring the bad. Nor do I wish to see only the bad and ignore the good.

Ha, Dan! See, I knew you were going to be a great addition to this place!! And your St. Peter jokes are killing me!!!! :) And yes, I suppose there are "innies" in many many walks of life. For myself, I don't like to speculate on someone else's "standing" with God, so to speak. I am not God to know such a thing, nor does it make any difference to me in the grander scheme of things. Love your enemy? I see that as love everyone. Treat everyone with as much respect and love as you can muster. Not saying I come anywhere close to doing that, but it is at least a worthy endeavor. Roy is a fantastic example in that category. People can be very cruel to him and he never returns fire. Sometimes I think he no longer even has the urge to return fire, though obviously I don't really know that. Me, I not only have the urge, but I still take the action at least some of the time.

I really have little direct knowledge of what the various offshoots do, I've never been involved in one. But it is my understanding that the woman who covered for LCM (who was picked by VPW and seems to have followed in his foot steps in all the wrong ways) is now president of TWI. To me, that is a huge red flag. I was thinking about this as well, Oldies, how did VPW even come by such films? I am not sure, by it is my guess videos involving beastiality would be illegal in the U.S. even to this day. I'm thinking it is even more likely they were illegal back then. It's not like he could have just stopped into your friendly video store, browsed the "back room" and picked one out, is it? Myabe I am the niave one here - Sheesh! So then WHO did he have to know to get ahold of such a thing? And what about copyright issues? Even if it were legal, I am assuming he would have to have permission to use it in a class he is being paid to teach, no? And given what we know about sexuality today, it all makes me a bit nauseous to be sure. Think about it, men in particular are by and large VISUALLY stimulated sexually. Women - to a lesser degree. So lets get a bunch of men and women together in a class and show them pornographic videos under the guise of Christianity? Under the guise of "a witnessing tool?" So they won't be shocked?? Again, I go back to my question - out of all the people who took that class and watched those videos, and then went witnessing - how many of them do you think actually drew on something they learned by watching pornographic videos to help them lead someone else to God?? What percentage of them came across even one human being who confessed to them they were "into" bestiality?

Theoretically, philosophically even, you may be correct. But what about the legacy of abuse that also lives on via LCM and those members of the BOD who KNEW and COVERED such things, and God only knows who else? THAT legacy needs to be stopped, no? Did you ever take LCM's Believer's Family Class, the legacy of CFS? Oh I know, one can argue VPW is not responsible for the actions of LCM and in some sense that is a valid argument. But one can also argue VPW IS responsible if he taught LCM such erronious and incredibly hurtful practices are acdeptable and that argument is also valid.

The roach may be dead, but there is concern his legacy lives on. LCM's actions were really not much different than his predessessors, could it be he was taught such behavior was okay? Could VPW have taught others the same error? Could LCM have taught others the same error? I think that is why you still see the outcry. Not because anyone thinks there is a need to stop a deadman from hurting other women, but because people want to stop those who likewise think such behavior is acceptable from hurting other women. And too, I am sure there is a degree of venting that comes from the pain of one's experiences. I think Dooj said it well in one of her posts on a thread somewhere - it took her 10 years to get over her mother's death?? Something like that. Venting is a part of the healing process sometimes. Expressing one's pain can be healthy. Sure it can go too far and become unhealthy as well. But I have met Rascal face to face and am very aware that what you see of her here on the cafe is one dimensional. You don't see the entire woman. Just like I am certain what I see of you here is somewhat one dimensional and I don't see the whole man. That is why I try to offer you the benefit of the doubt, that is why I try to hold my tongue when you say something that angers me - to wait until I can respond from a kinder place.

Okay, I can buy that Oldies. I can understand the concept of wanting to see the good in people, really. I generally tend toward that view too - despite the fact that the result has been to be "taken in" a time or two in the process. I wonder though, can you offer that same benefit of the doubt to others here? Can you look at someone, like say Rascal, and understand that she speaks out because she loves people and genuinely wants to help them? That from her POV, VPW hurt people and she wants to protect other people from experiencing similar hurt? I am not saying you have to AGREE with her POV that VPW hurt people, even. I am just wondering if you can see her heart and intent as something good, even though you disagree with her opinion? Just curious.

p.s. you're not late for dinner yet, but you are late for breakfast. :)