Abigail

I'll start a thread in the doctrinal section - probably the most appropriate place for it. We'll see how it goes, if it stays peaceful, GREAT! If it turns into fighting I'll restart it in decaf. :)

Revvel, I very much enjoyed your last post. :) A time of awakening, a time of introspection as well. Peace

For whoever may be interested, and I know there is at least one person because she and I conversed about it a tiny bit in chat last night: We are entering into the 10 days of awe that precede Yom Kippur. During this time the Jewish people make time for introspection. They make time to apologize and to the degree possible, make reparations for wrongs against others. I understand from my conversation that there are also some Christians who practice this as well. It might be interesting to find a few people who are interested in sort of having a group introspection. A time where we might share some of the things we are discovering within ourselves over the next 10 days - as opposed to the mote we see in our brother's eyes. Again - I say this not with a view towards expecting people to observe this. We are all at different places, have different needs, etc. etc. I just toss it out there for those who are interested, and somehow it struck me that this thread might be a good place for it.

I dunno, I always tell my kids it takes two to have an argument. There is always a choice, respond in anger and argue or be quiet and say nothing. Walk away. I guess I can't look at this thread and think the path it has gone down is all the "fault" of one person. I can't read what is here and think only one person has responded with "TWI" tactics. I can't remember who said it, but someone made a statement about how there are those who come here pushing and fighting and arguing for how great PFAL was and you have those who argue equally passionately against it. Both sides are pushing their own agenda with equal force and neither side is really listening to what the other is saying.

My mom died of breast cancer also. Such a sad way to die and sometimes so completely unnecessary. An ounce of prevention, yada yada. She put off going in for the tests and by the time she went, it was too late.

Thanks, Larry. You're a good guy. Sometime we just have to talk things out to clarify what is being said so that we aren't misunderstanding each other. :)

Well that might be what they were saying during your tenure with TWI. It may even be what VPW taught in PFAL (its been too long for me to really remember) but it was not what was taught or practiced during my time with TWI. We were taught obey, obey, obey your leadership!!! We were told the MOG certainly had a better understanding of "The Word" than any of us twiggies could ever possibly have - that he had forgotten more than we ever learned, etc. etc. I did my time as a rebel in that regard too, for a time. Though I rebelled more in terms of what I saw as "practical error" than doctrinal error. As the kids came and the pressures increased within myself, my home, my fellowship, and TWI as a whole, I eventually stopped rebelling, stopped speaking up. I became desperate to keep my family intact and to protect my children, it all became very crazy, again, in my own mind, in my home, my fellowship, and TWI as a whole. I say these things because I think it is very important to remember, as we interact here, that we all spent different time periods within TWI. That our experiences may be vastly different. I guess I think it is an inaccurate "blanket statement" to assume or infer that many of us were simply "spell-bound" by leadership. For many of us it was much more complicated than that. There were issues regarding obeying spouses and how that was to be properly applied (which was about as clear as mud in TWI). There were issues regarding obeying leadership (which became so twisted and off the word!!!). There was fear of being marked and avoided and having your family ripped apart. Etc., etc.

I think that is a fairly accurate statement, Larry. But from my own POV, my own "reasoning", it wasn't that I intentionally worshipped leadership. It wasn't even that I was out to impress them. It was simply that when leadership said something that didn't make sense to me, that I couldn't "see" in the Bible, I assumed (as I had been taught to assume) that the error was in MY UNDERSTANDING no in THEIR TEACHING. :)

Go get it done, RG!!!!!!! I always think of it this way - I have been pregnant with two big boys. I had c-sections with both of them. Many of you went even further and did it the hard way (natural delivery). If you can do that, you can surely handle this!

CLICK HERE FOR A LAUGH AND REMINDER

Very well said!!

I think part of the problem, in sorting this out, is separating out what was taught in PFAL, vs what was taught in fellowships and SNS teachings, vs how things were put into practice. It all becomes very jumbled and mixed up!!! So, do PFAL make my life meaningful? No, I did that. But PFAL did give me some meaningful direction. Did PFAL help me over come SOME worries and fears, yes. Unfortunately TWI went on to instill new ones. :blink: Did PFAL promote prosperity and health in my life? I'd have to say no. Did PFAL explain apparent bible contradictions? Well it did offer SOME explanations for SOME apparent Bible contradictions. Whether those explanations are accurate is debatable. Did PFAL install harmony in my home? I think for a time it helped, but again other teachings and practices within TWI ultimately undid that. Did PFAL enable me to separate truth from error? Nope. It did, however, instill in me a desire to continue reading and studying, as opposed to my prior feeling that understanding the Bible was hopeless and I would never be able to do it. Did PFAL discipline my mind by believing? No. I don't think that can be accomplished simply by taking a class, ANY class. Did PFAL teach me how to pray effectively? Again, not really. I think my prayers were "effective" to the degree that prayers are, prior to PFAL.

Mike, Nice to see you are alive and you appear to be doing well. You already know I very much disagree with much of what you said. I don't see the point in debating it with you, neither of us is likely to change our positions much. Peace and have a good day.

T-bone, I have no issue with Tonto. I was simply stating what I was working on, for whoever it might help or in some way benefit. I also realize, as I said earlier and you correctly restated, some of the fighting is a part of the healing process. I most certainly agree with you regarding honest feedback. But honest feedback can be worded in tactful ways that are meant to help or hurtful ways that are really more an expression of our own anger and frustration. Both can be useful, they just serve different purposes. I guess, what I have been trying to do in this thread is show both sides of the coin. The healing that comes with the venting and the healing that can come with the soft answer. No absolute rights or wrongs. :)

Oh come on now, Garth! You don't really expect me and Sushi to take ALL the blame, do you? ;)

I've been working on "a soft answer turneth away wrath." I've no where near perfected it yet, but I am working on it. Sometimes people come in here and come across offensive for reasons we don't even begin to know. But if we respond softly, if we give them some room and some time, we may find they are really good people afterall. On the other hand, if we respond in kind, by being offensive, well, it may be our loss in that we may never get to know them, never get to see their softer side, never get to discover what great contributions they may be able to add.

Funny, Mike. Are you then God? Because based on what you have posted, one could easily infer you KNOW that the Jews have rejected God and the implication is that any expression of devotion to God by a Jew is simply phony. Hmmmm OMG if that isn't the most arrogant bunch of hogwash I have read in such a very very long time. Funny, because Christian doctrine as I understand it, would lead one to believe Jesus was the best at agape, yet he never even took PFAL. Mike, true agape leads little room for arrogance.

Larry, Larry, Larry, what makes you think LCM referred to the Bible for his doctrine??? He was the MOG, he said it, that settled it!!! ;) You left TWI to early, you didn't stick around for the REAL fun. ;)

Well I won't ignore you Larry, and you can ask me all the questions you want. I can't promise I'll have an answer, but you can ask. :)

Most of them, but I miss one now and again. Actually I was thinking of something from the Epistles. Something about when the Gentiles do by nature that which is good . . . maybe I'll have to dig a NT out and find it. :)

Sky, even your New Testament speaks of the unbelievers who do that which is right, while the believers do not. I can't remember the exact verse and wording - if you'd like I'll find it for you. But the point is, don't be so sure that your Wicans can't have as many reedmable qualities as your bible believing Christians. Even your Bible says that isn't so. Or perhaps you need to define "redeeming qualities"?

Larry, I think you make some valid points here. There are many who have a deep aversion to TWI. There are a few who probably do not. The many can at times leave a person feeling unwelcomed. But, there are also those who could care less what someone else thinks of TWI. And there are those with a deep aversion to TWI who you would have other things in common with. This place is huge, there are a LOT of people here. And I'll walk out on a ledge a bit here and suggest that even many of those with a deep aversion for TWI, who at times seem to really intesensly dislike those who don't, would offer a hand of friendship to those who don't under the right circumstances - would feed them if that was the need, etc. etc. This place can be very one dimensional at times. We see some angry words on a screen and we are left with the impression that that is the sum and substance of who the person is, when in fact it is not! That is why I am enjoying Dan's interview threads so much, it gives us an opportunity to add a few dimensions to the picture. :) Lately, as I read some of the intenesely emotional posts that have come up around here, I keep thinking "a soft answer turneth away wrath." I am trying to practice this more and more, trying to simply say nothing if I can't give a soft answer. Maybe come back later and respond when I can. But I know for others, giving that harsher answer is also a part of the process. It is a part of how we learn how to speak up for ourselves again, or maybe for the first time, after so many years of silence within TWI.

I dunno. On the one hand, I get the "tired of the same old conversations and debates" thing - really!!! On the other hand, we were all newbies at some point in time, no?

(((George))) Really, this was a very timely thread for me. Next week is the Jewish New Year, followed by the 10 days of introspection and then Yom Kippur. It is good for me to think on these things :)