Abigail

Thank you. I responded in the other thread.

This is what I said to WhiteDove in the other thread - His refusal to acknowledge that even in a courtroom victims do not referr to the perpetrator or the crimes as "alleged," the completely cold and calloused responses and lack of regard for the pain he could be causing to someone who has already suffered more than enough - which is apparently not nearly as important to him as defending a dead man, really causes me to lose any respect I might have once had for him and actually does make me want to rethink my original position on this thread regarding banning.

I have stood up for your right to speak your opinion, but even in a courtroom the victim does not refer to the perpetrator as the "alleged perpetrator" and the victim does not refer to the crimes as "alleged crimes." When one is speaking of personal experience, and another comes along and calls their experience "alleged" they are in essence questioning that person's honesty and integrity and that is very personal.

can't put the book down Must work tomorrow

I didn't read them, I haven't even listened to the interview, though I am reading the book. I'm more of a reader than a listener -listening without visuals tends to put me to sleep. Anyway, I don't have an issue with the posts being deleted from that thread, but there is a big difference in deleting a couple ofp osts and banning someone. A number of posters here are sometimes "way over the top" in my opinion, including the person who started this thread. I too have gone "over the top" a time or two. If they were way over the top all the time, or even most of the time, that would be different. Most of the time they are respectful in their disagreements. I agree, however, that greater care is required when one is telling a story of personal experience, especially a painful one.

I did see your first post, I just thought for a minute there that you were having second thoughts about that :) I agree regarding a higher standard of decency, respect, perhaps even empathy or simply deciding it is not an appropriate time to speak up - when others are relating personal stories. I guess I'm just idealistic and hope people will moderate themselves more, instead of having others do it for them. It isn't a private place, not really. Anyone in the world with internet access can read what is written here - I'd say that is pretty darned public. Likewise, this isn't my home, more like a coffee shop where I chose to hang out with my friends. If I didn't like it, I could always find another one. I guess I just don't think the rules need to be changed, nor do I think Oldies and White Dove violate the mission of the cafe. They tell the story from their perspective. I may disagree with their perspectives - I may even find some of their points of view objectionable or detestable, but they are still telling "the other side of the story" as they experienced and perceived it. The only real difference is that their experience and perception is not in vogue here. I agree with Mark, if we start booting people simply because their perspective or experience goes against the grain of the majority, how is this place better than TWI? I already left one TWI community for similar actions, I'd leave this one as well if that is the way things went. Believe it or not, despite my differences with Oldies and White Dove, I have also had a number of very positive exchanges with both of them.

I agree with you Dooj, but I don't think "banning the aplogists" is the answer. Not only that, but Oldies, White Dove, et al are hardly the only ones who could be accused of violating the spirit of the rules. As far as twisting the knife in the victim - I've been a victim (not of VPW/LCM) so I get that too. It is beyond stinky and painful and for some, could cause serious harm and mental anguish. Yet for others, it can cause them to finally realize that they were a victim, that it wasn't their fault, as they learn to stand up for themselves and fight back. And one day, just maybe one of the victims will get through to one or more of the so called apologists. There will never be a one size fits all answer, its just too complicated an issue. I'd rather see the discourse continue with all parties involved than see one party silenced and banned.

Who is next Groucho - those who have different political opinions or religious beliefs? Perhaps the non Christians??? If someone is following the rules, I cannot see why they should be booted. Add to that, I think those you call apologists also add to this website in a benficial way, regardless of whether I agree with them or not on the topic of VPW.

Internet inexperience???? The man figured out how to register and post at Greasespot. He figured out how to send private messages as well as e-mails. He figured out how to add people to his friends list and how to post little messages in their profiles. He knows how to post pictures on the internet and send links to the pictures to other people. Somehow, I am less than convinced that he is simply inexperienced with the internet - he seems to have figured it out quite well.

Paw, maybe before you suspend or ban someone you should post a poll so everyone here can debate to death whether the poster is worthy of the cafe or worthy of a flogging. OR you could simply find out who all said poster's friends are and discuss it with them and let them decide!

Wait!! I'm seeing an image!!! Could it be a vision???? I see a giant carion bird, swooping down to pick what flesh remains on a carcass . . . .

Let my try this from a different direction. I get what you are saying and I respect it. You believe what you believe, you are steadfast, you love people. I don't think I would ever desire to disuade you of your faith. I don't even know that I would call you intolerant, as much as I might be inclined to think you have perhaps closed the door on opportunities for learning and growth. But then, maybe you haven't. Learning and growth are not necessarily the same thing as faith. Learning and growth can increawse faith, to be sure. But I think head knowledge which may or may not eventually be internalized and become a part of faith, is still disctinct from faith. So let me ask you think - could you, for instance, discourse with - give and receive information - with people of a different faith, with some degree of openness to the posibility that in doing so you might learn something or grow greater in your own faith?

We are all, but you are willing to reveal your soft underbelly and recognize your own imperfections. That makes you pretty okay in my book - FWIW. I think it might be a bit helpful if you explain what you mean by living it. I guess I think most people do to some degree or another, in some ways at least. And most people fail to live it in some ways, to some degree or another. Personally, I try not to get too caught up in "living it" and try to simply live. Maybe it sounds arrogant, but despite my many imperfections, I believe my heart and intent is generally in the right place. I screw up. Shrug - who doesn't? But I do my best to be my best - some days that best is better than others. I think, if I get to caught up in focusining on living it, I will twist myself into knots trying to perfect myself - which I will never be able to do anyway.

Most religions are exclusionary, at least to some degree or another. Usually there are divisions, sects, that are more exclusionary and sects that are less exlusionary. And this is probably my biggest problem with organized religion - the tendency to focus on the differences. For a while, a number of us (Christian, Jew, Pagan, etc.) spent quite a bit of time down here in the doctrinal forum exploring our similarities. What I found is, we have far more in common than you might imagine. In fact, if you remove the labels/names and traditional rituals, you would find there aren't many differences at all. Ah, but if the martyrs were Christians and they were blowing up innocents in the name of a holy war???? If they were killing off the Jews and heretics as was done in the 1400 - 1500's? If they were killing off Native Americans and forcing their children to convert to Christianity??? Perspective. I'm not condoning suicide bombers, mind you. Likewise, I don't condone things which have been done in the name of Christianity.

In my early days with TWI I was discouraged from taking care of my mother, who was dying of cancer. No one told me flat out not to take care of her (though my husband was pretty unhappy about me doing it and no one from TWI offered an assistance or support). I took care of her anyway, in a hospital bed, in her livingroom, with the help of my sister, my grandmother, and the mother of my sister's boyfriend (who never even met my mom until she was very near the end). A few years later, as my grandmother was undergoing surgery, I was busy taking a class. I should have been at her side at the hospital, but the all important class . . . A few days later I got a call from my sister-in-law telling me my Uncle was withdrawing life support and I should come right away. I dropped out of the class and drove as fast as I could to Detroit, but by the time I arrived it was too late. If I had it to do over again, I would have spent those last few days at h er bedside.

Any possibility you could make it up mid August? I'm not going north for the 4th this year either, but we are going to head that way in mid August.

I can't read the entire article right now - Sushi is cooking dogs on the grill and they are almost done. But, I am very interested in this disucussion and will come back to it. I hope others will chime in as well. The gist I got from what I did read made a lot of sense to me.

Nice to see you too Bramble! Summer is here, we are finally adequately staffed at work, and life is good. I miss the discussions we used to have here. I don't know if it is me who has changed or this place, but it seems there was a time when things weren't so caustic down here. Oh well, I'll keep peaking in to see if things settle back down again.

I can't help but wonder if an all powerful God and the son he has seated at his right side really need us to defend them. I can't help but wonder if it is anger or compassion that should be shown to those who "don't know Jesus"? I can't help but wonder if accusations towards others of devil spirits truly comes from God and/or His revelation or simply from our own anger and frustration? I can't help but wonder how a display of anger is supposed to persuade and win someone to God or Jesus? For me, such things just discourage me, leave me uninterested in hearing more. In Judaism, and throughout the O.T., we see men and women arguing with God, questioning God, even laughing at God. Yet these same men and women did great things for God - Sarah gave birth in her old age, Abraham saved Lot from destruction, Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt . . . I think questioning is good. It is when we stop questioning that we potentially close the door on learning, potentially close the door on God showing us something . . .

There was a time when the doctrinal forum was a place to exchange ideas, thoughts, beliefs, with friendship and kindness. Where we could disagree without anger and harsh words. Where we could learn from each other. This thread is a perfect example of why I so rarely post here anymore. Sad. :( While I don't believe in Jesus in the traditional Christian sense, and I certainly don't know your Jesus, Jeno, there was a time when the love he preached about was often seen in this forum - brief though it was in the grand scheme of things. p.s. Bumpy, I can no believe you killed off Grumpy!!

I hope your day is as sweet as every one of my day's with you has been!

I've missed all of my "basement dwelling" friends and it is good to see all of you. The past 6 - 8 months have been very busy at work, trying to keep up with kids and homework, etc. etc. But we have finally found a competent legal secretary who I will truly enjoy working with, which has lightened my work load considerably. And school is out for summer!! YEAH!!!!