Abigail

I know you have taken a lot of grief for being a VPW apologist or whatever. I have not read many of your posts so maybe you are and I have missed it. I do gather that you still believe in some or perhaps a LOT of TWI/VPW's doctrine. I am about as far away from TWI doctrine as I can get. However, if its what works for you for now, great. I could not and would not fault you for having a belief system that works for you any more than I would fault any other Christian, Jew, Muslem, etc. I may disagree and argue points with you, but that is another matter......... I thought your post was funny and I think it is great that you can have a sense of humor about the whole mess.

honoring my wants and needs....... I think this is another of those things that has to be balanced within boundaries and I am to some degree still figuring those boundaries out. I believe I have a right to honor my wants and needs. In fact, I better because while other's may, I cannot count on them to. Additionally, it is my job and responsibility to do the work to have those wants and needs met. However, when those wants and needs come at the expense of someone else's wants or needs, ie kids, job, etc., then there are boundaries and a balance to be worked out. Sometimes the kids, job, significant other, have to take precedence for a time. Sometimes my own wants or needs have to. By nature I am a caretaker, so it is easy for me to put my own wants and needs aside for too long, then I end up burned out, frustrated, and generally not a real fun person to be around. Then I have to take time out for myself. I am getting better at balancing this though, so I don't end up burned out as often.

Oneyed!!! Post away, please!!! ExCathy - Hi. Ginger - I can relate very well to your post. I didn't finish college years ago, in part, because I thought I was too dumb to learn and do well. Now I know better. I too stayed in negative relationships because I figured no one else would want me. And THAT was the biggest mistake because it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy. When I finally got off of that track, initially it was not so much because I believed I could do better or deserved better but because I decided I would rather be alone than with people like that. It is a gamble, but what a high eh? Leave TWI and then my marriage were probably two of the biggest gambles I ever took and I am sooooo glad I took them. Do you ever look back and think, "God all of those years I wasted not liking myself and all of the things I could have done differently!!!" I do. I know I learned from all of it and it is why I am who I am today, for that I am thankful because I do like who I am today. But holy cow the years it took to get here!!!! ACD - What you said about God and your value coming from the holy spirit within you, it was one of the concepts that drew me to TWI in the first place. My value had to come from something outside of myself (God) because I could not see any other way to value myself. Ultimately it is a false self esteem, in my opinion. So I wonder, what if there was no God or Bible to tell you about your God? How would you value yourself then? I also think it is a great way to skirt personal accountability. If your value comes from God, then the negatives come from the devil. Where do you fit in? What are you responsible for, in terms of your personal value? It is a circular problem. While you may not have to take responsibility for the things you are ashamed of having done, you likewise do not get to receive the credit for the things you could be proud to have done.

This is a difficult one. I suppose, in part, I would have to decide if I am speaking emotionally or intellectually. How we are defining the term value also comes into play. I know I have come to value myself much more highly in this past year than I ever have in the past. I have come to learn, while I may be lacking in education, I am actually capable of learning. I have found even though I have done some things in the past I am not particularly proud of, I am overall, a decent, loving human being. I have gained the ability to look within myself and see beyond the negative things I've always been told about myself and find the positives. These are things I can see intellectually and in that way I can value myself. However, my emotions haven't quite caught up with my intellect. I have days when I very much value who I am on an emotional level. I also have days when I do not. Sometimes, this is due to something as simple as getting enough sleep or not. Occasionally, I have to sit back and re-evaluate what I am doing with my life or that day in my life and change my course of action. Some days re-evaluating is too overwhelming and I just have to ride it out, knowing that tomorrow is a new day and a fresh start. Excathy - you hit on something very important. Being a mom, and valuing your ability to sacrifice yourself. This is something I also see in myself. But, when I look at this trait in light of boundaries, I often wonder where the "healthy" boundaries are when it comes to self-sacrifice. One of the things my dad told me years and years ago, when I was still a teenager, was I give too much of myself away to others. I didn't understand what he meant back then. I am starting to understand it now, but I still struggle with it. To sacrifice your own wants or needs for someone else's, is a valuable characteristic. But if we sacrifice too much of ourselves, are we valuing ourselves? Are we taking care of our own wants or needs? When I became a mother, my entire life changed. I lived almost completely for my chilren. Mom, that was who I was, plain and simple. What I eventually came to realize, was I was so completely mom, the rest of me had gotten lost. This was not good for me and in retrospect, it was not good for my kids either. So another thing I have worked on this past year, was how to incorporate the rest of me back into my life.

Zix - I understand that you missed the feel part and perhaps it was not in the old thread. Why not leave the old thread where it is, dead and buried? This is a new thread and it does include the word feel. It is a very important thread to me because it does include that word. Arguing about doctrines and philosophies can be interesting, fun, and even educational at times. However, when we talk about how we feel and most specifically about self-esteem, there is an opportunity for some true growth and learning, IMNSHO. When I think about all the years I wasted and spent NOT liking myself, all of the decisions I would have made differently if I HAD liked myself......... You didn't hurt my feelings, I've grown a bit thicker skinned over the years. I suppose one must to survive being in and then getting out of TWI. Likewise, I would hope I didn't hurt yours. I was simply trying to make a point. BTW - you didn't answer the question. Satori - You made some excellent statements. I would like to quote a couple and pose some questions. "Self-love is not a balance between self-hate and self-worship. It is entirely different. It is the recognition that you began with something valuable (like the parable of the talents) and you made something more valuable of it, or you at least STROVE to make something more valuable of it, with courage, with tenacity, with the best you could muster against the odds." 1. What about those who do not recognize that they began with something valuable, as I am sure would be the case with children who come from abusive or neglectful families? 2. What about those who do not believe that they have "Strove.....with the best they could muster? Another quote "Self-respect is the inner glow from knowing you've done well, you've done very well, if not your very best, you've made something wonderful. The more proud you can be of your effort, the more you will respect yourself." 1. Zix posed a good question, are self-respect and self esteem the same thing? Or perhaps more directly do YOU think they are? 2. Even when the individual knows they have done their best, how well can one hold up against the assaults of peers and societies that would like to convince them otherwise? BTW Satori, you didn't answer the question either The Evan - interesting fact. Honestly though, I am not interested in raising my ability to accomplish anything via self-esteem, at least not in terms of societal standards of output, career performance, or monetary/social status. I am simply interested in self-esteem from the standpoint of living a happier, healthier life. did the survey mention which group was happier? BTW, you didn't answer the question either.

Sheesh Zix - you are such a guy! Leave it to a man to totally miss the point when it comes to talking about how he FEELS! No Zix. A lot of kids FEEL excited because they BELIEVE Santa Clause will bring them toys every year. What we think or believe philisophically does not always match/agree with how we FEEL. This isn't a discussion about philisophical views on the right to exist, it is a discussion about how we FEEL! Can I state it any more clearly???? I saw the original thread, but basically missed out on it because it had died before I knew it existed.....(btw did it have a right to exist??? ) Thanks for the cut and paste, but I would prefer to take each "pillar" one at a time rather than trying to discuss them all at once. BTW the cut and paste from Satori's thread - were those his responses or yours? I couldn't tell for sure. Zix - "Without getting into minutiae, the first three pillars are bogus because they deal with immeasurable rights and values. They are logically null, if not semantically null. If you really want to explore self-esteem, I'd think beginning with Pillar #4 would be a good start. The first 3 are crap." Zix, I don't think you meant to sound condescending and arrogant, but you really did here. I for one do NOT believe the first 3 are crap. I find the first pillar to be a little vague, but not impossibly so. The second pillar speaks directly to self-esteem in that it is a very good measure of it. The third, likewise measures it because there are many of us, me being one of them, who has tended to NOT honor my needs and wants and treat them as important. As a result, I have allowed people to walk all over me and push my boundaries back beyond recognition. In fact, I would dare say that most anyone who has been in a cult has done that, no? The questions may appear logically null to you and perhaps if one was speaking strictly of logic you would be right. However, what we are discussing here are EMOTIONS and EMOTIONS are not necessarily based on logic. Hehehe, in fact in my case they are probably RARELY based on logic and I 4.0'd my logic class - LOL. We aren't trying to measure our rights we are trying to discuss how we FEEL about them - (one last time, in case that point was missed). So again Zix, if you truly want to partake in this discussion................ The question is not do you believe intellectually or philisphically that you have the right to exist, nor is the question about where that right comes from. The question is do you FEEL (human emotion) that you have the right to exist. Are you brave enough to tell us how you FEEL and not what you THINK?

and do I FEEL I have that right. Not at all a ridiculous question because it is a question about how I FEEL. It is not a debate about where the right to exist comes from. Some days I feel like, "Hell Yeah, I have a right to exist and anyone who wants to tell me otherwise better get out of my way!". Other days I feel like, "why the heck do I exist? what's the point?". And a lot of days I don't particularly feel one way or the other about it. More along the lines of, "I am here and I do exist so you're just gonna have to learn how to live with it if ya don't like it." Zix, 84 didn't express an opinion one way or another so he can hardly be accused of taking issue with someone who disagrees with him. What he did do is request that people stick to the topic, which is do you feel you have the right to exist? If you find the topic offensive, boring, or beneath you, it is not necessary to put down or belittle those of us who want to discuss it. BTW - it was pretty cool of you to apologize to Satori. So anyway, back to the original topic. If we can stick to how we FEEL, I think we will have a much more productive discussion on self-esteem then we will if we get sidetracked with arguments over from whom or what that right was granted.

and many more to come, my friend. You rack 'em, I'm buying.............been far too long!

the posts from the old Greasespot saved on disc? If so, is there a way I can get a copy or at least get some of my old posts off of it? [This message was edited by Kit Sober on August 30, 2003 at 11:16.]

there is an exception. Be the exception Hope!!! I am NOT a rule follower, in fact I hate all rules except my own - lol. Go out today and break one rule and see how GOOD it feels. Rip the tags off the mattresses Hope, I dare ya!

go to www.chatyahoo.com and register if you need to. the click into a chatroom and type /join greasespotcafe there we are and it is a really cool chatroom. No lurkers, no waygb and great emoticons. ready IM so no need to whisper and risk blowing them if you want to talk privately with someone

unfortunately you cannot help those who do not realize they have a problem or who don't want help. I was married to an abusive man who is still involved with TWI. I used to think if I could get him to leave TWI and their teachings the abuse would stop. The truth is in or out of TWI, with or without the doctrine of TWI he would have been abusive. That being said, TWI teaches doctrines that can certainly encourage abusive behavior. You cannot help this guy no matter how much you love him. You have to love yourself more and get out while you can. In my situation, I used to tell myself I would leave if he ever hit me. People would tell me that the first time he hit me could be the last time. I didn't believe that, now I do, now I understand it crystal clear.......don't let that happen to you. take care of you

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Peruser, I tried to email you but I"m not sure you got it. I know someone who still keeps in touch with Paul a bit. Email me at Abigail0900@yahoo if you want.

Yup, the one and same. We were friends before either of us got involved with TWI. He got in about 6 years before I did. Yes he is wonderful and I would love to find him!

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Jerome, I don't want to post my name public here but we were friends before TWI. I knew you when you were in college and lived in the big brown house with Troy and Jimbo. You were the first person to witness to me and I came to visit you at HQ when you first went corps. If you see this my email addy is Abigail0900@yahoo.com and I would love to hear from you!

Last I heard - info's about a year old - he was still in.

Welcome to Michigan then Scrappy.

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