Abigail

Yes, Refiner, they did. It's a great way to keep people in line, cause you always know in the back of your mind, as your watching it occur to someone else, that you could be next.

For you Rascal, because I do understand. This chapter of my life took place four or five years before I ever heard about TWI. It is not about TWI, it is about women and what an unwanted abortion can do to them. Three weeks after graduating high school, I moved to another state and got married to a boy I barely knew. I was totally infatuated with him. I thought he was was everything I was not, smart, sophisticated, etc. I was totally floored that he was even remotely interested in this little hick from the U.P. A month or so after we were married I was pregnant, not on purpose, but because he told me he could not have children without medical intervention so I didn't need birth control. I believed him. When I told him I was pregnant he told me if I had the baby the marriage would be over. I wanted to have that baby. My heart told me having an abortion was wrong. But I couldn't face going home to my parents alone and pregnant. I had the abortion. I don't know if something went wrong with the procedure or if I just did too much afterward, but the next day I spiked a fever over 101. I don't remember much about the 48 or so hours that followed, though I do recall there was talk of bringing me back to the clinic and that sent me into hysterics (not the haha kind). Ironically, less than six months after I married him, I left him. And I mean I really left him. I moved to the other side of the country to get away from him. Then I discovered I was pregnant again. I wanted to have that baby too, but when he sent the divorce papers they stipulated that he would have full custody of the child. I didn't even begin to know how to fight him. I was terrified of him. During the few months we were married he reminded me over and over again of how crazy I was, even threatened to have me committed. When I first talked of leaving him he almost choked me to death (which I think scared him almost as much as it did me). I knew he was not fit to be a parent. So I had another abortion. I was five days shy of thirty years old before I gave birth to my first child. During all of those years in between, most days I figured I never would have a child. It was my punishment for the two I aborted. I lived with guilt and shame for so very many years. I attempted suicide once, though it was really more a cry for help than a desire to die. Now, as an adult and a parent, I no longer regret what I did. I wasn't fit to be a parent all of those years ago and neither was he. But those who have never been through it cannot even begin to understand the guilt and shame a woman can carry when she has been pressured into having an abortion when it is not what she wants. And despite how prevelant it may be today, it was not that long ago that having a child out of wedlock was also a terrible shame.

There is a tremendous difference between teaching abortion is not murder and pressuring someone into having one. I do not see why this is such a difficult concept for some to understand.

"TWI gave these women an opportunity to stay in the Way Corps if they wanted, after screwing up. Sounds pretty charitable to me. March 7, 1976. I will remember that day as long as I live. That's the day I got dismissed from the 6th Corps, for screwing up. Dismissed. Good bye. So long. Don't let the door hit your butt too hard on the way out. And so, from my viewpoint, those women were given a choice, and they were treated decently. Opinions vary. " Ah, and perhaps here we have the true crux of the matter for Oldies. Not if it is Godly, not if there was abuse, etc. but damn it all it just isn't fair that they kicked HIM out and let YOU stay!!!!!! Perhaps, Oldies, you are still so bitter about this, that you just cannot see how truly fortunate you were.

"I'm also told that TWI is getting back to studying and teaching VPW's books and teachings. They are not trying to bring back the good ol' days, but they are trying to follow the foundational teaching he did and then build on that." RoyalG, They were doing this back in 1999 and 2000 before the s**t hit the fan with LCM, when I was still in. I didn't buy it then and I wouldn't buy it now. IF they are still or once again working through VPW's stuff my bet is it has more to do with trying to persuade people to stay or come back so they can get more cash, than it has to do with anything truly loving or spiritual.

Oldies, Most pro-choice people would tell you they believe third trimester abortions/partial birth abortions are a no-no............UNLESS the mother's health/life is at stake. Additionally most doctors will ONLY perform this proceedure if the mother's health/life is at stake. We don't need TWI to do that job and besides TWI's price tag is way too high.

Hi Refiner, I too did a brief stint with JWs in my pre-TWI days. I never really bought into the doctrine or became a member, though, I couldn't handle the idea of giving up birthday parties! :)--> I was a kid living on my own in California, young and lonely. A very sweet couple witnessed to me. I liked them so I hung out for a while.

Excathedra, I hear you. Laleo, I agree, it usually takes two to do the dance of abuse and said so a page or two ago. I agree, it is healthy for the victim to understand their "steps" in the dance so they can make healthier choices. However, if you read the responses of many of the women here, they DID this already. Unfortunately, Oldies seems incapable of seeing this or unwilling to acknowledge it. This is very hurtful for those who were willing to come forth and admit what they had been through and the role they played in it. It shows a complete lack of sensitivity towards these women. It appears as if he is far more concerned with defending the perpetrator than with helping the victims heal.

"But everybody lusts and everybody gets angry. Remember, in Matt 5 Jesus was talking to his disciples. One or more of them must've thought that if they didn't commit adultery in actual fact, then they were more righteous than those who did. Not true. The message was...oh, you think you're more righteous than that guy just because he committed adultery and you didn't? Well, guess what? Every time you look at a woman and become sexually attracted to her you just committed adultery in your heart. Are you telling me you've never done that? C'mon, what are ya, gay? Don't give me that." I have a huge problem with this "interpretation" of the Bible. If what you are saying is correct there is absolutely NO difference between having a thought or impulse and NOT acting on it and having a thought or impulse and choosing TO act on it. If, as you say, we all lust and therefore we have all committed adultery and it is only and entirely through Jesus that we are saved, then in a sense you are very much agreeing that it is perfectly ok to commit adultery. After all, once you've had the thought you are as guilty as if you have done the deed, so why not just go ahead and commit the act as well? No need to worry about it either, cause you are saved through Jesus no matter what you do. It is my guess this may well have been the same logic VPW, LCM, and others used!

"Abi: I don't take that to mean Jesus suffered every single possible temptation, merely those that are universal among humankind. " but doesn't the Bible say he was tempted in all things like we are? And do you not think there are temptations which are unique to married couples and parents?

"I say I was very gullible and vulnerable. " "This could sound like BS now since I’m older and not in a cult. But I remember what it was like." Gullible. Young. Vulnerable. See oldies, these women recognize they had some degree of responsibility. It was just laid out for you. So is it worse to be young, gullible and vullnerable or older, wiser, and predatory?

I came across this question in a book recently. I'll skip the context in order to keep it short. How could Jesus have been tempted in all things, like we are, if he had never been married or had children? How could he have had a complete experiential knowledge and understanding of the unique temptations which occur within the scope of a marriage or within the reality of being a parent? And while I'm asking questions, remember the wedding in Cana, the one where he turned the water into wine? Just why was his mother acting as a "hostess" and telling Jesus they were out of wine and he needed to see to getting more? Jesus even initially responded as if he didn't want to deal with the wine situation but eventually did after his mother's insistant urging. Hmmmmm...........

In the Jewish religion, there are many sects which believe we were alive in a spirit form before being born into our human form. This too could explain how someone could exist before they were born. It would also explain how someone could come back in a spirit form and converse with someone who was in human form. Additionally, many Jewish people do not see the Old Testiment texts as "God Breathed" but as an inspired and historical record of humanity. They also do not take everything written literally, but believe much of it may be symbolic

well gee Daryll, I didn't know much of that myself when I was in TWI or I would never have stayed with them for 10 years. I've been studying various religions since I left though, and recently I am reading a book which laid out much of that history for me. Normally I probably wouldn't have even shared it. I generally try to be respectful of other people's religious beliefs and cautious as well. Some people really need to hang on to their beliefs for their own sanitys sake. But when I see those beliefs as hurting other people it becomes very difficult for me to keep my mouth shut.

I have a bean dip salad recipe that is out of this world and easy to make. Make a pot of chili (which can be done a few days ahead of time) and you've got a festive meal. Deserts I'm not so good with. Ice-cream is nice and easy. :)-->

"I stand by my comparison of prison guards and twi leaders. Although there are certainly differences between the two, The ingredients of authority and secrecy working together to cause sadistic sexual behavior is evident in both. Several years ago there was an experiment with college students. Half were made guards and half were made prisoners. The idea was to swap roles after several days. The experiment had to be aborted because the first group had become so sadistical that they were afraid someone would get hurt. Under certain conditions, people respond in certain ways...pure and simple." I remember that study! It was very interesting and it was scary for all involved. Not only were the "guards" getting out of control, but the "prisoners" were also having serious psychological issues.

dmiller - it was very sweet of you to "defend my honor". :)--> Imbus, I didn't think you meant "you" literally, as in me. I figured by the context of your post and based on some of your other posts that you meant "you" collectively. Anyway, I don't get into the chat room too often by you can always PT me or email me, my addy's in my profile. Not sure how many spiritual "truthes" I would have that might interest you, but I sure have spent a lot of years studying outside of TWI in a lot of different directions and avenues.

"I did not say the Bible had no keys to truth and godliness - just that it doesnt have everything - pearls can be made artifically too" Tref, wait till you get to the second half of the book you picked up! I may not agree with all of the hypotheses, but he sure has some very valid points, particularly about the bible. For example...... 1) The Bible makes no clear statement one way or another on Jesus' marital status- it is tradition which has taught he was not and believed by most. BUT, if Jesus was a Jew who fullfilled all the law and was, as the Bible states, a Rabbi, he must have not only married, and in all likelihood had children as well. Jewish law requires a man to be married before he can become a rabbi. It also holds giving birth in very high esteem. Orthodox Jewish law would also prohibit birth control. 2.) If Jesus was arrested on Passover by the Sanhedrin, this too would contradict Jewish law. It would mean the Sanhedrin violated their own laws and performed "work" during a high holiday. Additionally, why did they need Pilate to execute him? Why not just stone him for heresy? They had the legal right, as they had the right to stone the woman caught in adultery. 3). The word "Messiah" did not and does not refer to a divine being in Jewish custom. In other words, when the Jewish dicsiples and Jesus himself referred to Jesus as the Messiah, they were not referring to a divine being or even a spiritual leader, but to a king/political leader who would once again reign in Jerusalem. In fact, this is the entire reason the Jewish people of today do not believe Jesus was the Messiah(anointed one) spoken of in the old testament. 4) It was against Roman law to bury someone who was crucified - they left them on the cross for the carrion to eat. So why then, did Pilate allow Jesus to be taken down and buried? Additionally, it usually took two to three days for a person whose legs had not been broken to die on the cross, yet Jesus died in less than a day. 5) Why is it the resurrected Jesus still had holes in his hands and a wound in his side? In 303 A.D., a pagan emperor named Diocletian sought out to destroy all Christian writings. This is one of the reasons there are no originals in existence today. It was almost 30 years later, after the council of Nicea and the vote to make Jesus a divine being, that Constantine arranged for copies of the Bible to be written. These Bibles are the ones the current Bibles of today are based on. They were written by a man who worshipped the sun, a man whose political aims were to bring about a unified nation under one God, a man who played a very major role in melding pagan traditions and holidays such as "easter" and "Christmas" with Christianity. It was also Constantine who installed a Bishop in Rome (and it was a Bishop in Rome who eventually declaired himself Pope). Constantine was never even baptised as a Christian until he lay on his deathbed. Is it not remotely possible, if not entirely likely, that what is and is not included in the Bible was slanted to forward Constantine's agenda? Just a few things that make me go hmmmmmmm.....

"Does anyone know how much housing cost have risen since the great revelation to not buy a house and sell the one you have if you have a mortgage was declared? " I bought a house about a year before the "no debt" policy was delcared for about $40,000.00. Like a good little wayfer I sold it a year later. I saw an appraisal on the house next to mine a few months back and based on that, I'm guessing my $40,000 house would now be worth somewhere between $80,000 - $100,000. Yup, I'm still kicking myself.

Paw, It seems a little spooky to be able to go in and read what everyone said in chat for the past 24 hours or so. Other than that and the fact that no one is there, talking to myself in the new chat room was just fine. :)-->

Well 1000Names and I are planning on being there this time around!!! Shell you can hitch a ride with us if you can take the time away to go!!!

Vickles, been to any new websites lately? Any where you had to enter your yahoo email address and password? How about opening e-mails from people you didn't know? Go to any links in any of those emails? I've had something similar happen to me twice, once with aol and once with yahoo. The first time, with aol, I received and email supposedly from aol with a link, went to the link and followed the instructions, which included entering my password. It turned out it wasn't really from aol. My password was stolen and my aol account was used to spam people. AOL alerted my of the problem or I wouldn't even have known. Just recently, this past week in fact, I started getting e-mails in my yahoo account. Actually, they were return e-mails saying the messages I had sent were undeliverable. The thing is, I never sent any of the emails that were returned to me as undeliverable. My guess is that once again someone got my password and was using my account to spam people. I changed my password and have not had a problem since. You have to be very careful about opening emails from people you don't know and about websites which require you to enter your email address and password.

Sasquatch - I went to a Vineyard for a time after leaving TWI. In fact, the minister knew of TWI. He had a roommate who made it his "life mission" to help people get out. He was very nice and never pushy. I loved the music and freedom there - the minister did not force his doctrine on anyone. If there were disagreements over beliefs, his response was God worked in all of us differently and it was our responsibility to work it out with God what we beleived. I quit going because I just wasn't ready to get close and comfy with a bunch of "religious" people yet. ***** E.W., Not having been raised Catholic, it is a bit difficult for me to relate to that, though I understand what you are saying. I actually like the traditions and ritual, but see them as symbolic not literal. And I like having the freedom to light the candles on Friday night or not. I don't feel like I have to be absolutely consistent about the rituals because this is all they are. But they are peaceful and pleasant when I feel like doing it. The old testament teachings are interesting. I was more familiar with the OT than the new when I joined TWI anyway. Some of it fits with what we learned and some is different. BUT, with the Jewish religion - the Talmud is not just the OT. It is the OT and hundreds upon hundreds of years of rabbinical commentary to explain what the stuff means. And there is a lot of oral tradition which is believed to have been passed down since "The Beginning". It really is fascinating. Yet, all of it is about how we are supposed to do "good deeds", help others, be of good character. Also woven into that is the understanding we are human and imperfect.

Radar, There are some very fundamentalist Messianics out there. The synagogue I am checking out is not Messianic at all, they are simply Reform Jews. This basically means their focus is more on community and character than trying to define God (which by definition is undefineable) or trying to force rules upon people. They have two services, one on Friday nights (which I have not attended yet, because it starts so late) which is entirely in English. They have another on Saturday mornings which is more traditional and mostly in Hebrew for the more elderly folks. After the Saturday service, they have a huge brunch. Last week it was bagels and herring (I had to work hard at not laughing at all the stereotypes). :)-->

I haven't attended a church on a regular basis since leaving twi, but I am currently checking one out that I may. Except it's not exactly a church, it's a synagogue for Reform Jews. I picked it after much reading and then deciding I liked the moral values. I have gone once so far and liked the people as well. I will go a few more times and if I still like it, I will probaby bring my kids too.