Abigail

IMO, your input is far more important than the opinions of those of us who have been here forever. Some of us have forgotten what it is like to find this place for the first time. Many of us no longer need to "process out," we've done that, even if we haven't all moved forward with our lives. The input of "fresh eyes" is vital, I believe. And there, Paw, is perhaps the real answer you were looking for. To the people who are new here, the cafe is still viable and needed. Perhaps the real problem is that some of us old-timers need to move out and on and start functioning in the real world, instead of harassing other people on the internet when things don't go their way. That said, I also believe you are not obligated to keep the forums open. You have given your life blood to this place and it is reasonable to say "enough is enough."

Is Greasespot still useful? I don't know, that answer might best come from those who are newest here. I can, however, tell you what Greasespot did for me. It helped me undo all of the wrong teaching I got out of TWI. It helped me see the illogic of what was taught and how those teachings hurt me. It helped me realize I wasn't alone in what I experienced. It helped me realized I was in an abusive marriage and it helped me find my way out of it. Here, I met many wonderful people and learned from many great threads. There was one thread in particluar, that got me ineterested in learning more about logical and critical thinking skills. Because of that thread I took a college course on the subject and earned the highest grade in the class. In doing so, I learned I was't stupid or incapable of earning a college degree and I continued with my education. My life is significantly changed for the better, because of my experience here at the cafe. In fact, if it weren't for Paw and Greasespot, I may very well have returned to TWI and stayed in an abusive marriage. I would never have realized the potential within me. For those of you who don't like the way Paw or the Moderators run this place, there is a simple solution. Don't let the door hit you in the behind on the way out. The man gives of his time and money and all he has asked in return is that we disagree respectfully. That we behave as if we are adults when we post on the forums. As for editing posts - the solution is very simple. Step back, take a deep breath and re-read what you wrote BEFORE you hit the "Add Reply" button. In the real world, once you have spoken you cannot go back and delete what you said. Live with it or get over it or just don't post. As I frequently tell my children, there are rules we must follow in life, even as adults. They may not always seem to us to be fair, but we must follow them anyway. Why would you think the forums would be different? Why would you think that just because you can hide behind a screen name that it is okay to be as rude and beligerant as you want?

My cousin gave me this recipe over Thanksgiving. 3 cubs bread flour 1 packet (1/4 ounce) instant or fast rise yeast 1 1/2 teaspoon salt 1 1/2 cup water small amount of oil 1. Combine flour, yeast and salt in large bowl. Add 1 1/2 cup water and stir until blended - dough will be shaggy/sticky. 2. Cover bowl with plastic wrap and let it rest on the counter at room temp for 4 hours 3. Lightly oil a work surface and pace dough on it. Fold dough over on tiself once or twice and cover loosely with plastic wrap. Let rest 30 more minutes at room temp. 4. While dough is resting place a 6 - 8 quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, pyrex or ceramic) in oven on 450 degrees and let it heat for 30 minutes 5. After 30 minutes carefully place dough in pot, seam side up. Cover with lid and back for 30 minues at 450 degrees. 6. Remove lid and back another 15 - 30 minutes until golden brown. I use an enamal roasting pan and shape the bread in a loaf instead of round. It comes out with a very crunchy crust and a soft, moist inside. To make it healthier I replace 4 tablespoons of the flour with 4 tablespoons of milled flax seed. Even the kids love it!!! This weekend I am going to try making it with 2 cups bread flour - minus 4 tablespoons, 1 cup of rye flour and 4 tablespoons of milled flax seed. you can also put an eggwash on the dough before cooking and sprinkle with sesame seeds, poppy seeds, or quinua. We haven't bought store bread since we got the recipe. It is so easy, cheap and GOOD

We switched our insurance coverage to Geico a couple of months ago. I was a little nervous about doing it, because I prefer someone who has an office right here in town. We raised our deductibles and between the 2 saved $100 PER MONTH. Well . . . this weekend it happened. Someone ran a stop sign and hit Sushi's 2008 Cobalt, damaging the front end. The car is still driveable and no one was hurt, thankfully. Sooooo . . . called this morning to file a claim. They were very kind and helpful. They will be sending an adjuster out to estimate the damage and repair, they will send paperwork to the girl's insurance company to recover our $500 deductible for us, and if we would like they will give us $30 a day for a rental car for up to a month. We are early in the process, so it may be a bit soon to say for sure, but so far it appears the service is satisfactory.

It is possible to eat healthy on a small budget. It does take being educated regarding what is and is not healthy though. And it takes time to prepare the meals. Sushi cooks most of the meals during the week. On the weekends, I prepare "bulk" meals. Giant pots of soup, chili, etc. For the price of one whole chicken, some fresh veggies, and a grain I can feed our family of 4 homemade (much healither than canned stuff) chicken soup for 3 - 4 dinners and a couple of lunchs AND make a chicken couscous casserol for another 1 - 2 dinners. Some beans, cheese and corn tortillas (all relatively cheap) can make a couple more meals. I can get all of that for less than $30. Bean soup, also very cheap and healthy. The stuff from Angel Food just isn't designed to stretch like that. Plus, its a lot of processed stuff and a lot of beef. We don't normally eat beef more than once a week.

We picked up our first order yesterday. It does seem like a lot of food for your money, but I have to say, overall I am disappointed. First, because a number of their products contain trans fat, which is even worse for you than saturated fats. I wrote them about this and suggested they either not purchase products with trans fats or at least post on the menu which items contain them, so we can make a more informed decision. Also, after looking at the December menu, I realized if I shop sales I can get the same meat products for less money locally. It is just a matter of planning meals. We have saved tremendously by planning healthy meals with more beans and vegetables and by making soups, chili, stews, etc. Beyond that, we typically do not purchase many processed foods and they seem to sell quite a few of them. It may be a great deal for some people. I have to put our health above the small potential savings and will pass in the future.

And under the new contract with the tiered system, new hires make about $14 - $15 an hour. Barely enough to pay the rent, utilities, etc. and buy food. Hard to buy a new car on that income. Meanwhile, the CEO's are making millions each year and the executives aren't far behind them. It isn't the unions that did this, it is the management. I think before the lower wage earners are asked to make more concessions, the CEO's and executives need to make a few. Why does anyone need to make $14 - $15 MILLION dollars PER YEAR? Just how much crap can one family possibly need to buy?

Since I am still unable to embed, my lovely bride has allowed me to use her account to post this. This one's for you George. Btw, this is from Sushi.

I am amazed by the number of armchair attorneys the cafe has. In that light, I would point out that in most instances (and the laws do vary from state to state), when one is charged with libel, one of the elements that must be proven is intent. In other words, if the person speaking believed the words they were speaking were true, they cannot be found guilty of libel even if the words are eventually proven to be false. That being said, WhiteDove, by accusing others of committing libel, by your own definition are you not doing the same? After all, no one here has even been charged with libel, much less convicted of it. So, I guess to be technically accurate, WD, you would have to say "in my opinion you have committed libel" or it is "allegedly libel"

It's a very broad question, Geisha, which makes it very very hard to answer. Christianity itself is hard to define - so many denominations, so many doctrines, so many differences among them all! Then there is the concept of tolerance, or intolerance. Intolerant of what? Some Christians are intolerant of anyone who believes differently than they do - as evidenced by TWI. Some Christians are intolerant of those who don't believe in the trinity or those who do. Some of homosexuals. The list could be endless. So, some Jews are intolerant of non-Jews. Some are intolerant of the orthodox and some are intolerant of the reformed. I'll bet there are likewise some pagans who are intolerant of one group or another. That is just people, unfortunately. Some of us are intolerant of the intolerant too. So maybe, just maybe, what concerns you more is "do people perceive you as being intolerant?" I don't know. I'm guessing based on what I have read down here, that perhaps that is at least a part of your question. So, I'll tell you what I think. I don't believe you are intolerant. I think you are very very convicted/convinced of your beliefs. I also think you care deeply about people. Because of those two things, I believe you want to see "all people" come to the knowledge of your faith and be saved. It is a noble endeavor, given your convictions. However, in THIS FORMAT, it makes it easy for people to misunderstand where you are coming from and perceive you as being intolerant, even though you aren't. One thing that helps with that is to use "I" statements. Instead of simply saying "this is what the Bible says, this is the way it is" if you said "this is what I believe the Bible says and therefore this is the way I believe it is" it leaves a bit of a crack in the door that makes conversation easier. You are, in essence, saying the same thing - but you are saying it in a way that invites a more open back and forth conversation. It is a small thing, but because we do not have facial expressions and tone of voice, it really does make a difference. It makes some of us quite prickly if we feel we are being preached at, or if we feel someone is trying to "witness" to us. First and foremost, many of us just want to be accepted for who we are now. Now, I am Jewish. I cannot say what I will call myself a year or two from now. Something could happen that could change my point of view. But for now, I want to be accepted for who I am, in exactly this place and time in my journey. In terms of the broader question, is Christianity getting more flack today than it did in previous generations? Probably. It is hard to gauge just from one website called Greasespot though, because so many of us do bring baggage from our experience with TWI. Our society as a whole, is expanding. We have a larger and larger population of diverse beliefs about God, more athiests and agnostics as well. Where as a society homosexuality was once condemned, now homosexual people are coming to be more accepted, even among those who may condemn the act itself. (for example). So, I think as a society we may also be becoming more and more intolerant of intolerance. Because in our country, Christianity has been the norm for so long, the mainstream, Christianity is probably getting hit the hardest. But Christianity is hardly the only religion or group that has factions of intolerant people in it or aspects of its doctrine that could be viewed as intolerant. I once refused to study Judaism, because I thought it was so completely intolerant. My understanding of it was that it was all based on DNA - genetics. As if a person has any say at all regarding who they are born to, what genes they get. Then, when I finally begain studying it, I realized my intial perceptions were wrong, that it isn't simply about genetics and that it is an incredibly tolerant religion (though of course, there are intolerant sects and individuals within it).

There are a few of us around, though I don't know that we were involved in TWI and in Michigan at the same time.

Hey Andrea, I kinda remember you from your florist days, but I don't think I ever knew you were from Michigan. What years were in you Michigan? I live in Lansing, so we aren't too far from each other. There are a handful of other Michiganians here at the cafe too.

I don't believe I was born in sin and I don't believe I need a savior. Sorry, but that is how I see it. I believe God made formed and created me as He said HE did - awesomely and wonderfully made. Note, he does not say perfect, just awesome and wonderful. I am not perfect. God didn't make me to be perfect and doesn't expect me to be perfect. That is part of what this life is for, to make mistakes and learn from them. I don't think Jesus Christ will somehow magically and mysticall perfect me, again, because I do not believe that was God's plan for me. While I can (on some level) recognize the heart and concern of those who teach hellfire and brimstone because they are concerned about the state of my soul/spirit/whatever you want to call it, I too find it offensive. Not just offensive to me personally, because they are "minding my business" but to God as well. Like others here, I don't see anything loving in teachings that stem from fear.

I'm with Geisha - Puff the Magic Dragon has to be the all time, #1 song that makes me cry. Okay, my sister Ex - these are a couple of other songs that really really make me cry. The first one was originally written about a woman dying from Aids. And this singer has songs for every one of my moods: And here is one more

Well, I got clean and sober in TWI. That was good. I paid a high price for that, however, and not just financially. I had two children while in TWI, I love them beyond words and wouldn't undo that. I met my husband thanks to Greasespot, which I never would have been a member of without TWI. I've made some good friends too. My self esteem grew in leaps and bounds as a result of my experience LEAVING TWI. Those are the pluses. The bad - I paid a high price financially, emotionally, mentally and spiritually for all of that. I still have serious trust issues and cannot bring myself to become involved with another religious organization - or any other organization really, at least not one that requires an emotionall or spiritual committment. Where would I be if I had never been involved in TWI? I have no idea. I could be dead. I could be drunk and stoned somewhere. Or, I could have gotten clean and sober via some other route, and ended up in the same place but with a different husband and different children. I wouldn't trade my husband or children for a life of no TWI experience. However, I would gadly trade the "scars" I received in the process.

That is pretty much my point, RumRunner - you can NOT guarantee privacy or anonymity - especially on the internet. To set up a "private forum" has the potential to give a false sense of security, one that could potentially be very damaging to a poster with family members still in TWI.

What happens if a member of the hidden forums accidently repeats something in the open forums that another poster revealed in the hidden forum (for instance - perhaps they forgot you mentioned it in the hidden forum and thought it was already public knowledge)? What happens if a member of the hidden forums PMs something you said in those forums to someone who is not a member of the hidden forums? Add to that then that person tells someone else, etc. etc.? Those are issues that have to be considered, I would think.

Congrats, Mr. and Mrs. Raf!!!!!! Mr. Raf, I hope you are prepared to make the midnight pickles and ice cream run!

I've missed you as well, Tom. I hope you'll stick around for a while.

What I find really interesting is that we can humbly bring our questions to Him and get so vastly different answers. I guess we each have our own paths and journeys to take in this life.

This difference, Dan, is "public figures" verses "private figures." Public figures such as VPW and Joel Olsteen assume the risk of negative public opinion when they take on the roles they do. They proclaim themsleves men of God, apt to teach, and make (or made) a lot of money doing it. It is their employment and the people who follow or followed them are, in a sense, their employers - the ones who pay their salary. Thus, we have a right to critique. The people who post here are not public figures, we are private people who come here to express opinions and debate ideas. The rules of the forum state we should not make our debates personal - attacking another poster's character is personal. Perhaps your opinion regarding bigotry is correct, I've certainly held such opinions towards other posters. In the end though, if your goal is to persuade you will have far better success using logic and reason than using words that will insult someone and thus cause their defenses to go up. But I don't think there is a poster here who hasn't at least occassionally gotten personal with another poster in a debate, myself included.

Hi Tom, Long time no see!! Why not start your thread? I think it could be an interesting conversation. It could also be interesting to ask the question and invite non-Christians to participate as well, no? I think a large part of the problems that occur down here come from the labelling of people. "You're not Christian, so you can't relate/don't understand/don't have valid input" or "You're not trinitarian/You are trinitarian therefore you can't relate/don't understand/don't have valid input." Wouldn't it be nice if we could just do away with the labels altogether and really listen to what the other person is saying. Who knows, they may have something valid to say.

Isn't Christianity supposed to be a way of life too?

<<<Waving as I join you in the back of the bus>>>