Abigail

More on Job I said earlier there were many who believed Job lived during Moses's time. Here is another version. Many believe Job lived during Abraham's time and eventually married one of Jacob's daughters. In this version it is said that through all of his suffering and then the great deliverance he received, he turned Abraham's father from idolatry. Additionally, in this version, it is said that Job was even more "upright" than Abraham. Another interesting thing I have come across is that despite the various differences regarding the history of who Job was, pretty much all agree he was not of Jewish lineage. Here are some more tidbits I've found: "Eliphaz’s speech presents the view that Job is unjustified in his complaints: A. God is absolutely just, therefore Job has sinned. B. (4:19) Those who dwell in clay houses, whose faith is dust, are crushed like a moth—perishable—this is what it is to be human—mortality means suffering, it is a human condition" "Testament of Job 1. Post biblical work written 300 years before the Mishna 2. Parallel story in Greek, probably between 100 BCE and 100 CE. Another story about an old guy about to die who calls his children together and gives them his testament/will." "Saadia Gaon (882-942; philosopher) 1. Two fundamental pillars of Job—the parameters of the entire discussion of Job’s two beliefs: A. God is absolutely just. Job never denies this, he just wants to understand it. B. Job is a tsadik (his friends deny this). The book’s problem is how to square these 2 points with the facts of Job’s life. 2. At the end of the book, Saadia posits that until God spoke, Job’s knowledge of God was hearsay. In the last chapter he has reached a new superior understanding of God" Rambam (1135-1204; also known as Maimonides; the greatest of Jewish philosophers) 1. Rambam says the reader has to be well qualified to enter into the questions posed by Job. Only people who have studied logic, physics, mathematics and metaphysics are capable—a very small audience! 2. Many Tanach passages may not be taken literally—one needs to look beyond the words to determine what they are trying to say. 3. Rambam says evil is a privation of form—all evil does not come from God (consistent with his notion of free will [JPA]). 4. Three categories of evil: A. Natural evils deriving from the material world, such as earthquakes, eclipses, etc. Rambam posits that these are relatively seldom and are not generally bad in the long run. If they happened more frequently, they would destroy the world. B. Moral Evil—between people, such as violence and dominance. These are more numerous but come about because we cause them; from our own free will. C. Moral-Intellectual Evils—things we do to ourselves, primarily due to ignorance. Most frequent blame goes to individual selves. 5. Rambam rejects the anthropocentrism of humanity—thus, Job is not so important in the cosmic picture; but Satan is more important. (Idea is that if heavenly bodies are superior to man, then they must not exist for human beings. We are high on the ladder, but there are higher rungs than us.) 6. Rambam wants to deflate man and to blunt Job’s complaint—(essentially takes God’s position.) 7. Rambam reads Job as a mashal (example)—Evidence: historians cannot agree on Job’s facts, therefore it is easier to understand what everything means if we look at it as a parable which needs explaining. He identifies characters as B’nei Elohim, Satan and others: A. B’nai Elohim are the angels, who live in the upper world. Satan lives in the land and wanders. There is no relation between them. B. All Job’s sufferings are caused by Satan directly. However, this fact is unknown at first to Job and his friends—they all think God is the cause—“no evil can come from high—lo ra ml’ma’alah.”

Sky, I'm starting this as a new thread. I've done just a very preliminary search so far. The truth is, you could find almost as many different answers to your questions regarding Job as you can find Jews. Private interpretation is definitely approved of among Jews. However, here's what I have so far: 1. There is debate as to whether the story is literal and historical verses a parable to help us understand that suffering is as much a part of life as joy is. 2. There seems to be a great number of Rabbi's who believe, via oral traditions, that Job lived during the same time period as Moses. According to this tradition, when Moses went before Pharoh to seek freedom for the Hebrews, Pharoh sought out the advice of three men. They were: Bilam, Iyov (Job) and Yisro. Bilam gave bad advice and was killed. Yisro fled and his decendents became Judges in the Sanhedrin. Iyov (Job) remained silent and was later punished with pain and suffering. Here is a quote from an article (I've come across this same idea in several articles now): "Heaven rewards and punishes with the poetic justice of measure for measure. The advocate of death by violence ends up the victim of it while the courageous defender of a people is rewarded with grandchildren who rise to that people's highest ranks. But what is the relationship between the silence of Iyov and the pains he suffered? Iyov was a righteous man and his failure to protest against Egyptian genocide was certainly based on his conviction that Pharaoh had already made up his mind and that his outcry would be futile. Heaven inflicted pain upon him and he cried out. Does crying out bring the pain to an end? Yet one cries because it hurts. In similar fashion Iyov was held accountable for failing to cry out because it hurt to hear such a cruel decree even if he could not change it. " I'll keep looking and share more

Danny, Quiet time would definitely be imporant, especially after a study session of this sort, in order to absorb and sort through what was discussed! :)-->

Sky, 1) Are Jewish people actually able to trace there ancestory to the tribe of Judah? Is there in existence family trees that go back that far? If not, how would the Messiah ever be traced to that tree? I don't know, Sky. My maternal grandmother once told me we are from the tribe of Levi, but I have never seen any kind of documentation which could back that claim up. I've never really looked either, because it hasn't meant that much to me. My great grandparents came here from Russia and Hungary (and I was privledged to actually get to know my maternal great grandmother, who didn't die until I was an adult) and the only family tree I have ever seen didn't go past great great great grandparents. I don't know where my ancestors may have lived before migrating to those parts or how long my family lived in that part of the world. I do think there are Jewish people who may be able to trace their families though - there are a number of websites now for just that purpose. There is a disease (I can't remember the name of it - Tasacs I think) which is only passed through one tribe (if memory is correct - Rueben), so if you have a knowledgeable doctor or a Jewish doctor they will ask you if you are from that tribe before or during pregnancy so they can test for it if needed. So yes, I would imagine there are a those who can trace their roots back and probably a lot like me who can't. As far as the Messiah goes, Judaism doesn't focus much on that. The focus of Judaism is the here and now, how to live this life. "2) I was curious what authenticity Jewish scholors attach to the book of Job. Do they think Job was a ancestor to Abraham or otherwise?" The Jewish people would recognize the book of Job as being authentic, but the interpretation of what it means could be vastly different. There is the Tanakh, which would contain the book of Job, and then there would be the Talmud which contains oral traditions and arguments about what it means and how much is literal vs. figurative. As for Job being an ancestor of Abraham, again I don't know, but I would be willing to look. I wasn't raised as a practicing Jew - my father is agnostic or atheist. My mother, well she never talked a lot about what she believed so I really don't know. I've been reading and studying Judaism on and off for a year or so now and mostly practicing in my home. I've only been to synagogues a handful of times. Anyway, if you are asking because you want to know if Jews believe in a devil (singular) - I don't think they believe in one. But they do believe in demons or evil spirits, of which Satan could be one. I will do some research over the next few days and see what I can come up with. I've been wanting to anyway, as Job is a topic which has recently come up for discussion here at home too.

In TWI, we were taught to study to show ourselves approved unto leadershi@ - oops, I mean God. In TWI, this meant retemorizing verses, word studies, teaching tapes, receive, retain, release, etc. In Judaism, the study of the Torah is a very central part of the religion and we are encouraged to study every day. BUT, they define studying very, very, differently. In Judaism, one does not just sit and read or do word studies. One does not just take at face value whatever someone teaches. In Judaism, to study Torah is to "make a disturbance". It is to think, debate, even argue about what is written. There are books upon books upon books of arguments which Rabbis have written regarding what the meaning of every verse is. I love the lack of blind obedience. :)--> From here Living Learning Torah Eternalize Your Mind By Tzvi Freeman How to do Learning Torah 1) Make a Disturbance Somewhere along the way, someone introduced the practice of sitting quietly with a book and not disturbing anybody. But that's not the tradition. Ideally, you sit at a table in a study hall (called a "Bet Hamidrash") with a friend or two and loudly discuss a text until you've gotten everyone else within earshot involved. 2) Savor the Journey Learning Torah isn't like any other study. Other studies are means to gain knowledge. Learning Torah is an end in itself. It's the experience of asking questions, searching for answers, It's the experience of asking questions, searching for answers, getting in synch with the minds of the sages -- the experience of making contact with the Divine Intellect. (bold added by me)

"So has anyone, honestly believed that "God" has talked to them in such a way that they can be 100% sure that it wasn't a temporary form of mental illness?" Yes. "The problem is that "God" never tells people, "Hey, go take your kid to the hospital because he has a vascular malformation that can be treated now, but if not, he will have seizures and die" No, thankfully God has never told me that. But He has told me when my kids were in trouble or need. "Until people start getting real things via revelation that are impossible to know any other way, and this can be proven, it just looks like all claims of "God" talking to people is little more than their subconscience talking." Yes it does and I have had that debate with myself also. I can't prove that it was God anymore than I can prove it is just my subconscience talking. However, it is what I feel inside my entire being.

Sky, "I think the Lord was wise enough to understand that religion doesnt perpetuate itself. Someone always grabs and organizes "life" in a way it wasnt meant to be. " I don't know much about organized religion beyond TWI - it was the first and only time I have been a member of one. However, it may very well be that what you say is correct, at least to some degree or another. However, I suspect that most mainstream organized churches don't suck the life out of you to the same degree as TWI and some other less mainstream groups do. "But we must find life and truth from our failures, wether they are religious ones or not." Again I agree. Otherwise we are destined to repeat those failures over and over again. "We want God to perform in certain ways when we have worked for him, but he denies that" Not so much anymore, though that was very true when I was in TWI. I thought I had found the magic formula to life. I do X and God does Y. Life just doesn't work that way. But I was much younger and less experienced then. "Personally I think its because what we want isnt enough, he wants to give us more than a pony ride in the "I am the best church around thing." That, and what we want isn't always what is best for us.

"I guess considering the BS of TWI, I can see where someone might feel that all religions are threatening and posture that way to protect themself. A disconnect is reasonable." Sky, Check out Steve!'s thread in the About The Way Forums (those who have been out less than five years, why did you leave). Someone else in that thread referred to those in TWI as being the walking dead - man, what a great way to say it. For those of us who got in young, stayed long, and really believed we had found a path to God and salvation; those of us who really believed we were doing something good, had a heart for God and a heart to help others - TWI kills that. Takes away your faith in God and humanity. Takes away your sanity. Your ability to trust yourself and others. It is one hell of a fight to come back from that and some never do. Two of my best friends in TWI left before I did, one by six months or so and another by quite a few years. One cannot speak to me at all and the other barely can. TWI was not the glue that held us together - we had much much more than that in our friendship and love for eachother. However, it has become the wedge that keeps us apart. There just aren't words to describe the nightmare it was getting out and figuring out how to heal from that. I've come a long ways from where I was when I left TWI four years ago, but I know I still have a ways to go. I have found a way back to faith. But I am still very very uncomfortable with organized religion and pretty much have to force myself out the door on Friday nights to go to synogogue (and boy is it easy to find excuses just to stay home). I still do not have a single face to face friend outside my home and family. When people from the Synogogue call me to invite me to something or see how I am, I get knots in my stomach. Intellectually I recognize that they are being kind, concerned, friendly, etc. But the emotional side of me recoils.

"Simply that, if it always "they" that are the problem and not "we" or "me", I have built my little totem pole of the I am right they are wrong philosophy of the first church of we got everything we need." Gotchya, thanks for clarifying, and I agree. "So that being removed from all religion at times might be good religion in itself" This I do as well, though not with a conscious decision of "hmmm, think its time to remove myself from religion". It is more of matter of phases. Times when I study, process, practice, and to step away and take a breather. "I must look at God through the microscope of my own soul versus the microscope of religion which says God must act just like this" Mostly, I don't spend much time worrying about how God must act, I spend it figuring out how I should act. I don't even do that from the standpoint of pleasing God but simply out of the desire to be a better person and to make my corner of the world a better place. I figure God loves me for who I am and if He didn't, well he formed, made and created me, so He can figure out how to fix me if He wants me fixed. I also study to learn more about how to connect with God (i.e. hear him), because communication is always a two way street. I figure the more connected I am, the better me I can be and the more I can do to make my corner of the world better as well. "we want to grab on to the reigns of power but not the meekness of his life." not me. With power comes responsibility. I have enough of that right here with my own family, I do not feel an overwhelming need to take on more than that. I have enough on my plate. :)--> Peace

As of September I've been out four years. Why did I leave? There is not a single reason but more like many all combined together. 1. They hypocrisy 2. The lack of control over my own life 3. The bad advice and counselling 4. The rules against seeking advice and counselling elsewhere 5. The rules against having friends outside of TWI 6. Because my ex would not allow me to have anyone over, even other "believers", without first calling him for permission and the leader.... in the area backed him up on it. (I was by and large a prisoner in my own home). 7. I got tired of being .... on by my ex and leadership for still having some degree of my own mind left. 8. It became clear to my that what was being taught did not line up with the Bible. 9. I no longer had any friends in TWI or out of TWI and life was becoming quite lonely 10. I reached the point where facing the devil and risking death was no longer scarier or worse than facing another day living in the hell I was in with my marriage and TWI.

Wafer, I did not learn all of those things in TWI, many I learned in the process of leaving, others I learned while in. I guess, because the question was "how did you benefit from the TWI Experience" not "how did you benefit while being in TWI" I counted the entire experience from the moment I got involved to the entire process of leaving physically and mentally.

Sky, Some very interesting thoughts and perspectives you have. "I think as young people, we took an natural aversion to "suffering for Christ" and whatever that means." I wasn't raised Christian. I always felt on the outside of things because of that. For me, TWI was a time to actually feel on the inside, like I belonged. "If sin is truly harmful, perhaps we ought to have better evaluated what was harmful about it. Then we could have experienced life, without feeling the Bible was hamstringing us. " And perhaps, as you stated later, we ought to get a better definition of what sin truly is. I see sin as those things which hurt us or hurt others. Is it then harmful? yes. But can there be good in that harm also? Yes, because we learn and grow in the process. And if this life isn't at least in part about learning and growing then I am still at a complete loss as to what the point of this life is. "I don't think any suffering is deliberate from God to make us worse for the wear. Why is it that the things that I suffer liberate me from the very things that I fear and dread? " Exactly. Is suffering from God or the devil? Well I'm not sure the two are entirely mutually exclusive. I'm not sure that the concept of God and Devil isn't just a somewhat childish way of compartmentalizing those things which we do not understand. I do not think God deliberately causes us pain so much as pain is just a part of living and growing, sort of like childbirth. I wonder how much we would truly grow if all we did was eat, drink, and make merry in this life. Probably not much. "The opinions of men without love and kindness have always felt like thorns in my underwear when I sit down and thorns in my feet when I walk. We can't live in this life without someone evaluating every crook and craw wether they are Christian or not. This I find dispicable" And again, I agree. This too is why I can sometimes become quite prickly. Though I know that I too can fall short in the love and kindness categories. But this too is part of being human and less than perfect and this too I can learn from. "Perhaps this is why, Abby, we need to be seperated from each other and "our beliefs", so that we can all take a good personal inventory. " I am not sure what you mean by this - would you care to expound?

ExC, That is just too technical for my little pea brain - especially while I'm still working on my first cup of coffee! It is probably just as well because I grasped enough to give me nightmares for a very long time.

Sky, I spent 10 years with TWI. Married, had children, had the crap beat out of me (figuratively speaking), and reached a point where I was no longer really living, just dying far too slowly. However, I am not sure I would trade all of those hard learned lessons for the ignorance I lived in prior to my TWI experience, despite the above. I learned a lot of good things out of my experience with TWI. They were hard lessons, but imporant ones. I learned I was much stronger than I ever gave myself credit for. I learned what it is like to feel superior to others (you say this is a good lesson? yes it is because it was a false confidence which did not feel good or benefit me in the long run and it is something I will not do again). I learned to be careful of too much black and white thinking. I learned a great deal about the Bible which I may never have learned otherwise - yes I know it wasn't all accurate and it was practiced in extremes but the knowledge is still useful in my continued study and growth with God. I learned that I really am a decent person in spite of the wrongs I have done in my life. I gained a deeper sense of understanding of people in general and developed a better sense of forgiveness. I learned a great deal about balance in life, what it is and what it is not. I learned how to find peace within myself. I learned I can love people even when I adamantly disagree with them. I've learned how to set and maintain my own boundaries. There is more but that's enough for now.

Sky, "Never heard the term Chassidic before." Chassidics are a group/movement of Jewish people. It originated back in the 1400's or so when a Rabbi set out to make the teachings of the Kabbalah available to the "common man" (because prior to that it was not). Many of the posts I've shared here stem from their teachings. However, they are also quite orthodox, which I am not. One of their beliefs is that we should be joyful in all situations because it is all from God, even the bad. The bad things happen to teach us, to help us grow. " just wanted to add, I think it may be dangerous to think like this all the time and just be passive. Certainly there are things we can change by our responses to life itself. I didnt meant this in a way that I can sit idle. Unargueably, there are things that happen in our lives that we cannot change. To me its acceptance by default. I just wanted to clarify that. " Agreed, which is why I said I think such an attitude is healthy to a point. :)--> "You know my spirit has been wounded also " Yes, I know. I am very sorry too about your daughter and wife. It is interesting how we learn from each other. I have a son who we think has aspergers. I've spent the last year researching every avenue I can find to find ways to help him. I didn't realize, until you shared about your daughter and wife, how incredibly angry I have been feeling over the difficulites my son faces and causes for our family. It hit me like a ton of bricks after I read your post. Now I know, I can deal and heal. :)--> "It's my view Abby, that real love from others never tries to control someone." Amen!

Sky, That was a very nice response, thank you for sharing so much of yourself. It is my suspicion there is much more which we agree on than disagree. Though there is much to be learned from those with opposing views as well. :)--> This: "I accept what comes my way as from his higher purpose. " is the Chassidic view as well. I think it is healthy, at least to a point and hope to continue to grow in this area. (I am not Chassidic, but agree with much of their philosophy). " everything is so pigeonholed by different organizations" Which is one of the reasons why I prefer to NOT limit myself to one organization or even one book. "" I think I know a little, I think I know enough." Thats good enough for me. " I too, think I know a little, and that is good enough for me, for now. However, I am always wanting to learn more, that is my nature, not just with God but in many areas of life. "Sorry if you thought I was disrespectful, I admit I was trying to stir your drink a little, just to see the way you thought tho." I'll let it slide this time. :D--> After having spent so much of my life allowing others to define God for me and allowing others to define ME for me, I have become very protective and at times quite defensive if I feel like someone is trying to pegeonhole me. Sorry if I was overly prickly. Peace

"Therefore if that goal isnt chased after, the "hearing" will never come out right. Don't you think?" I would be interested in your thoughts on how one goes about "chasing after the goal", I'm going on the understanding that the goal is being perfected. "Interestingly, the Point of the Word of God is to seperate "the thoughts and intents of our hearts" I think if we let it do that, which voice is which can be more clear" I would also be interested in understanding what it is you view as being "the Word of God." This may clear up some misunderstandings or at least help me have a better idea of where you are coming from. :)--> I don't ask these questions to be argumentative. If you tell me the Bible and only the Bible is the Word of God in your perspective I can respect that. Though I am wondering if you can return the same respect to me? I know I'm being prickly again aren't I? I don't mean to be, it just seems sometimes I can't help it.

"Therefore Abigail, cut me some slack, your drownding me in cultist moronic excesses." Here <<<snip>>> <<<Abigail hands Sky some slack>>>>> I apologize Sky. I do have some knee jerk reactions to some of this stuff still. "Perfection after all, stems from grace, which is in deference to these things I mentioned." I will go back and reread with the understanding that this is the perspective you are coming from. :)-->

Roy and Def, thank you and I am glad you enjoyed it. I may add another piece later this evening. Def, no offense taken, I'm glad you were able to get something out of it that blessed you. Our faiths are not opposing, they are kin. I still believe in what Jesus taught and am learning to understand it in an entirely different light. :)--> We went and performed Taschlich (I know I am spelling that terribly wrong) tonight. This is where you throw bread to the ducks, or in our case fish, and each piece represents something you did wrong in the past year and want to change in the next. It was very sweet watching the children and I think it is a very concrete way for them to let go of their own feelings of guilt or shame and move forward.

CW, I am ROFLMAO. Anyone who comes chasing after me looking for perfection or salvation is going to be in a sorry sorry state! ROFLOL However, your point is very well made. I like to share those things I come across which move me or inspire me. I figure someone else out there may be moved or inspired as well. If they aren't - its no loss or insult to me. I did my time stuck in the mind trap that my way (via TWI) was the only right way. It was very limiting, frustrating, lonely, pathetic really. There is so much out there that is wonderful and so many people with different views I can learn from and whose company I can enjoy. What a sad thing to lock oneself and everyone else in these little boxes. God made us in His image - we carry the spark of God within us. Am I not insulting God then, when I insult the path one choses to walk with God on? Which isn't to say I've never done it or won't ever do it again. Such is humanity. "Abigail does demand of us to draw a line in the sand and say, "Everybody for Abigail stand with me. Everybody against Abigail stand on the other side of the line...then prepare for your doom." " I've had moments when the thought has crossed my mind! LOL LOL ;)-->

"It seems to me the point of the gospel is to be "perfected" or be found without spot and blame in Christ. " To be perfected. To become perfected? To make ourselves perfect? To turn ourselves inside out because we aren't perfect? Who is doing the perfecting? If it is us and we can truly perfect ourselves is there a need for a savior? "Therefore if that goal isnt chased after, the "hearing" will never come out right. Don't you think?" I suppose one must define there terms. Chased after how? In which direction? Do we limit ourselves to only one book when we are chasing this goal or do we seek truth wherever it may be found? Do we chase it to the point of exhaustion and in the process neglect our families? Our neighbors? Our communities? Or are they a part of this goal? Or do we take time to continue to learn while making sure we leave time to continue to live? Do we make time to listen to the quiet voice within or do will fill our brains with so much information that we can't hear the still small voice because are brains or too full and busy processing all of this knowledge? Moderation. Biblical principle, no? I am a huge believer in practicing moderation in all areas of life.

"Uh ok abby, as long as its the one true God from within." 1. God can take on whatever form/concept/ideology He needs to in order to reach people or allow people to reach Him. He is not concrete, but will become whatever He will become. 2. Why, "Uh ok abby, as long as its the one true God from within." ? Do you think anyone of us always hears God perfectly and never mixes up what God is telling us with what we are telling ourselves? We are human, Sky. We are allowed to be imperfect, which is a darned good thing. Most of the time I don't get too caught up in worrying about whether something is from God or not, I just do what I believe is right. If it turns out I am wrong, I will learn from that as well. No big deal. I'm not perfect and I don't feel an overwhelming need to try to be perfect or to pretend/imagine that I ever will be perfect in this lifetime. When we get so caught up in second guessing God or ourselves it just makes it even more difficult to hear.

The Days of Awe are winding to a close and Yom Kippur is approaching. I found this and thought I would share. Excerpts from a sharing by Rabbi Shai Gluskin. "It seems odd that the goat which bore our sins would remain alive. Later interpretations, however, claimed that the goat for Azalzel was sent away to die, and there are elaborate descriptions of the goat being pushed off a high craggy desert peak to its death. This interpretation has our sins being toted far away to die in impressive fashion. I have found it helpful to create my own image of what might have happened to that goat in the desert and what it does symbolically for us. These imaginings are inspired by my own trips to the desert . . . I imagine that the goat that is offered up to God represents the sins we have already worked through, and the goat sent to the desert are those deficiencies which continue to reverberate through us, repeating themselves in predictable yet destructive patterns. The desert is a good place to get clarity and vision to release us from the debilitating patterns.. . . So when Aaron confesses for the Community of Israel and leans his hands on the goat (the word for lean samakh also means "trust"), he's beginning a process that might lead to our "coming out" into the light of our true selves. By trusting that goat, Aaron is also sending us with the goat into the desert. He does this so that we can have the light of the desert shine on our souls while the goat caries our stuckness for us. By traversing the desert without the burden of our sins, we can begin to get an image of ourselves that can survive without our destructive behaviors. For in the corners of our civilized places, we have hidden successfully with our poorer selves and become dependant upon living with them. In the desert we are free from them. Neither Yom Kippur of today nor an elaborate ancient ritual will magically purify us. But we can take time, whether in an actual desert, or the space of prayer, or simple reflection, to find the open and sunlit places that allow us to see that part of us which was created in the image of God, and which can bring great gifts into this world."

Belle, "Think of God as the ocean and we're droplets of water that make up that ocean. That's why Jesus Christ said, "My Father and I are one" and "I am in Him and He is in me". " Saw a movie that had this story in it about a little wave that was very sad because the bigger waves were going to crash into it and it was afraid it would cease to exist. The bigger wave said - look, we are waves in an ocean, we are all apart of the same thing and we will never cease to exist. Something like that - I'm telling it very badly but thought you would get the idea anyway. CW, " So, quite literally, "god" is an expression of the divine within ourselves." Yes, we all have the spark and we can (when we figure out how) utlize that spark to draw down more sparks from God. "Also, most people have had the idea of being divine within so pounded down and belittled that they are not sure that it even exists. Some will even deny its existence. Some will even consider the very idea "evil". We live in a world that is based upon self doubt. Is it any wonder that we pay more attention to, and, therefore, can communicate with, what's outside of ourselves than what is inside of ourselves? " Well said! Sky, "Perhaps that is why it was said " to take heed to what we hear" Hearing is the difficult part, for how do we hear it? Do we hear it in a window of manipulation where we want to make it work in a manner that is to our understanding or benefit? Or do we hear it in a way which says I can understand what it means thru God's explanation." Not entirely sure I am following you here. But if you are referring to hearing it via the Bible v hearing the "still quiet voice" of God, I'll take the still quiet voice. That is not to say I think the entire Bible is bunk, but there are many inspired writings and even more inspired interpretations. I will take what I hear over what someone else hears any day of the week. That is not to say I am more right than you, it is just to say what I hear is right for me and what you hear is right for you.

Maybe he does, but we just aren't very good at hearing Him.