Abigail

Some more thoughts - When my oldest son, Aaron, finished kindergarten, he couldn't read at all. When Aaron finished first grade, he still wasn't reading all that well and definitely wasn't "pushing the paper" either. Now, here he is in second grade and doing beautifully. Reading above target, getting his work done in school, etc. Jacob's teacher has already predicted he will finish kindergarten at a 2nd grade reading level. I know, he can do the basic addition. He can also write (albeit not particularly neatly - he is getting better though). It seems to me, at least to some degree, kids figure these various steps out in their own time. Given the fact that Jacob is actually advanced in so many areas - what the hell is the big deal over the paper pushing?????? Shell, "Also what about the school board? Have you brought your concerns before them, complete with your notes, information, etc. They are the principal's boss, essentially, yes? Go over everyone's head. Another point is getting the teacher AND the principal in a meeting at the same time. Recording their words, assuring them you will not take them at face value." Going to the school board would be my last resort before moving them to another school entirely. I tend to think you can usually catch more flies with honey and so that is the approach I have used so far. However, if things do not improve after the break, I will have to change tactics from honey to vinegar. I will be meeting with the principal and teacher together after the break as well and I am going to very strongly emphasize that I DO NOT want Jacob punished for not finishing the paper work. If the teacher wants to send it home with him, we can work on it here at home, at his pace. I've already told her that anyway and she has sent some home - though again it amounts to drawing these stupid lines and coloring pictures and I just refuse to make an issue of it. Why not have him practice his writing or addition? Why not have him practice reading or work on reading new words? At least that would actually be teaching him something. I know from experience, he will usually do those tasks and takes pride in them. And yes, I am considering trying to switch him to a different kindergarten class, if necessary. That would be the option just prior to going to the school board. Last year, his pre-school teacher quit midstream and it was a rough adjustment for him, getting used to a new teacher. The teacher he has this year - he got along great with her up until about a month ago, and so I'm not in a hurry to change teachers unless it is necessary. On the other hand, she is due to have a baby come March so either way he will be having a new teacher at some point before the school year is out. Financially, I'm not sure I could pull him out of kindergarten altogether and even if I could, I don't want to. I'd put him in a new school first. I'm concerned pulling him out altogether might leave him with the message that it is ok to quit and I have worked very hard to teach these little guys you never give up. :)-->

Mark, Perhaps you missed this in reading the article you posted . . . . "Unlike mainstream Minnesota public schools, where students study comparative religious history in social studies classes, Tarek students study Middle Eastern history more extensively. It doesn't say the students don't study comparative religion or the history of other parts of the world - it simply says they study Middle Eastern history more extensively. and "while much of Tarek resembles the private Al-Amal Islam School in Fridley, the Inver Grove school doesn't teach the Koran or other Islamic religious texts even though almost all its students are Muslim. " This is exactly what the African American charter schools do - they teach all of the same areas as traditional schools, but focus more extensively " on African American history and culture. Most traditional schools in this country already focus more extensively on Christian culture, by virtue of the very culture we live in. Ever go to a children's holiday program (the new P.C. name for the Christmas program) in a public school? I have, several now. This year, this school - they called it a multicultural event. Their definition of multicultural was to include a three minute overview of Chanukah (presented by me) and a three minute overview of Kwanza (presented by another parent) mixed in among approximately ten Christmas Carols and Christmas Hymns. [For the record, I am not complaining - we celbrate both holidays in our home and I love Christmas music, but I am trying to make a point.] When do the schools offer their winter and Spring breaks? Over Chanukah and Passover? No, over Christmas and Easter. And so yes, a Christian group is allowed to open a charter school using public money, which focuses on the teaching of Christian culture and history. They simply cannot teach the Bible, just like this Muslim school cannot teach the Koran, or a Hebrew one couldn't teach the Torah.

I appreciate all the input and especially getting opinions from both sides. WW - his work load isn't bigger than the other kids. He's just bored with it. Color by numbers, drawing lines from letters to pictures - he's bored bored bored and I can't really blame him. so he entertains himself by playing with his crayons and up until this past week - he was not disruptive while doing so. Me, I look at him and I'm thrilled that he can entertain himself for over an hour using his imagination - his older brother can't do that for more than 10 minutes! But this teacher has turned it into a power struggle - she is going to make him do that stupid paperwork if it kills both of them. So her response is to take away the activities he enjoys, like computer lab. So now the kid is bored, frustrated, and ....ed and his behavior is getting worse not better. So if bumping him up a grade isn't the answer, what is? Yeah, I can work with him at home - always have anyway. But that isn't going to help him get through a seven hour school day.

" You actually have a Christian-based Charter school in your area? Really? I am shocked. Seriously. Can you tell me the name of the school and the town its in (please)? Not that I doubt you, but I want to see if its existence has been challenged, yet. " No Mark, that is not what I said. I said we have a school that is based around the African American culture. I also said "if the demand is sufficient and the school meets the educational requirements, then Christians can also form Christian based charter schools" I, for one, would not have a problem with this, even though I would not choose to educate my children there.

P.S. For me, the charter school system has been a godsend. My oldest son was bored to tears in the public school system kindergarten class - I couldn't afford a private school but was able to move him to a charter school that used the Montessori method - by the end of first grade he was doing multiplication, division, and fractions. Unfortunately and in large part because of the way Michigan evaluates the schools, the charter school was shut down last year. Now both boys are in a traditional style charter school. My oldest son is back to basic addition and my youngest son is now bored to death in kindergarten. :(-->

Mark, My kids attend a charter school. They are funded the same way public schools are - in Michigan that means so much $ per student. Charter schools can be based around anything (i.e. Christian, Muslim, we have one here that is African American) or use any teaching style. BUT they have to meet the state and federal educational requirements and there has to be enough demand to keep the school funded and up and running. So, if the demand is sufficient and the school meets the educational requirements, then Christians can also form Christian based charter schools. The entire point of the charter school system was to offer choices to parents who cannot afford private schools and to try and push the public school systems into improving themselves via competition.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Jacob worked really hard this morning and got all his work done so he could participate in his class Christmas party. Then at lunch time, while they were outside playing, he got in trouble for hitting a first grade girl and ended up spending the entire afternoon in the office. So, I asked him about it and his brother Aaron said this girl was slamming Jacob into a tree. Aaron went and told another teacher - who apparently was to busy to deal with the situation. So Jacob finally hauls off and hits the girl and she runs and tells Jacob's teacher, and HE gets in trouble. I am sooooo angry, the little guy worked so hard for this party! I have talked to the principal repeatedly in the last few days though and she promised me the first day they are back at school, she is going to work on some observations in the classroom and some testing to figure out what grade level would be most appropriate for the little guy. I am also going to let them know, from now on when he gets in trouble and gets sent to the office, I want them to call me and notify me. I am thinking, maybe his teacher is just too fed up and frustrated with him (I like his teacher, in general and understand how this can happen) and maybe he just needs a fresh start with a different teacher. I am also considering trying to find him another montessori school - but the downside to that is this is the first year that his older brother hasn't been in constant trouble and I don't want to move him/mess with that.

Way to go ((((Oen))))))! Gotta get together and celebrate over the break!

:D-->

Thanks for all of the wonderful input, everyone! MJ, the program you talked about sounds wonderful, but I don't think my boys are old enough or independent enough for it yet. Though it is good to keep in mind for the future. I spoke with the principal today and she is going to have the special ed teacher test both boys to see what grade level would be most appropriate for them (Aaron isn't having any behavioral issues this year - thank God - but I also know he could do the work they are giving him in his sleep with one arm tied behind his back). In the meantime, after Christmas break, Jacob is going to sit in the 1st grade class two days a week for reading, which is at least a start. I would like to see the same thing happen for Aaron with math, because he was doing 3rd grade math in the 1st grade. I just hate seeing them stagnate in the areas where they excell because it will lead to boredom and disinterest.

Noname - yes, it hits close to home for me too, as my oldest son has had very similar meltdowns here at home (and thankfully not in public). I too have had to physically restrain my son in order to prevent him from injuring himself or someone else. When he was 3 he smashed a window during one such tantrum. However, I can also take some comfort and amusement in knowing that "normal" children also can and do have meltdowns.

DMiller, no one was making fun of the mentally or emotionally disabled. My mom used to work with such folks and I got to know some of her clients as I was growing up. " If that jerk in the ad couldn't control his own kid, perhaps he should have used a condom, to that much I will agree." We don't "control" our kids any more than we can control anyone else. That is crap taught by TWI, which I figured out was impossible real early on in parenthood. You can discipline them and teach them, motivate them, even beat them (which I am not recommending) but you cannot control them. My oldest son threw his first all out temper tantrum right on que on his second birthday. I laughted and took pictures to preserve the moment. But the reality is, it isn't funny when your kids is out of control. Most kids have moments when they ARE out of control because they have to learn how to control and properly express their emotions. Most parents, regardless of how much we love our children, have moments when we think "oh my God, I did this on purpose? I even did it twice???" (or whatever number applies). Usually we have those moments when our kids are behaving especially bad. I love my children and I do not regret having them, but as a parent, I can sure relate to the commercial. Lighten up a bit. Humor can take the edge off a really tense moment, ya know? I know the next time one of my kids throws a tantrum, if I can picture that commercial and smile, I will be of far more help to my child then if I get all ....ed off at him.

((((Belle)))) What you are going through is NORMAL. You will have up times and down times for a while and eventually there will be less and less down times. I had panic attacks for quite a while after I left TWI and again for a time after my marriage ended. They eventually went away. If you have one, just focus on breathing slowly, it slows the heart rate down and helps control the panic. When I first left TWI, I joined a church for a time and went to a home study group. I couldn't hang with it over the long haul though, for many reasons which I can discuss with you in email if you like. Then I went through a time of agnosticism. Eventually, I started studying all sorts of religions, Native American, Buddhism, Paganism, and Judaism. You know from the doctrinal forums I have found great comfort and enjoyment in Judaism. But I am still not comfortable in a group setting or a synogogue and I've been out for 4 years now. Maybe I will never be comfortable in a group setting, I don't know, but I don't worry about it much because in the age of the internet I have found it very easy to find people I enjoy "fellowshipping with" who do not demand I believe the same way they do. :)--> Oh, yes, I went to counselling for a time too - it was supposed to be marriage counselling. It didn't help my marriage, but it sure helped me. p.s. that biological time bomb hasn't gone off yet - these days women are having babies even in their late 40's. And there are people who chose to have babies otuside of marriage - a hard road I think, but not impossible or unmanageable in todays society.

I hear ya Shell. I had similar problems with Aaron when he was in traditional kindergarten. That was why I moved him to the Montessori school, but that is just not an option anymore since the school closed down. I find it very ironic that the very school my two boys learned the best at has been closed down, in part, for not meeting the state's standarized testing guidelines. Of course, that is because the state only looks at the scores from the highest grade level, which in this case was 8 11th graders who had been kicked out of the public school system. :(--> What is best for Jacob is part of what I am trying to figure out. He needs to be chalenged and he needs to be having fun while he is learning. He went to daycamp all summer, learned lots and had a blast - no behavioral problems. I also understand the teacher's position in that she has to teach 20 kids who are all at different places and learn in different ways. How does one do that??? I certainly have no idea. Excathedra, Great link!!!! Thank you.

I am looking for opinions from teachers and parents on having a child skip a grade. Yup, its my Jacob again. His behavior is becoming increasingly problematic at school. But having one child who is ADHD and having also researched ADD, I do not believe that is what is going on with Jacob. He has stated several times now he is bored. I can understand why - his teacher has told me since the end of the first marking period that he is working at a 1st grade level. He is reading six levels above anyone else in the class and I know he can do the basic addition which is taught in first grade. I've been working with him at home on the schoolwork he doesn't complete in class. Most of it involves drawing lines from a letter to a picture that beings with that letter or coloring in pictures according to the directions. But I can get out flash cards (and how boring is that??????) and he loves them, gets very excited as he figures out what the words are. His teacher thinks he is not socially mature enough for first grade and she may be right. But then, I think there are certainly first graders who aren't as socially mature as the rest of their peers, aren't there? And if the alternative is for him to be totally bored and constantly in trouble, well it may be a worthwhile trade off. At our first parent conference meeting, his teacher was going to try to get a Title 1 tutor to work with him because he was so far advanced - but that never happened, I'm guessing because Title 1 is more about kids who are lagging, not excelling. I also discussed with her the possibilty of putting him in the first grade room for part of the day, which she said she would check into, but hasn't yet. So, I am scheduling an appointment with the principal to discuss all of this with her. I know, from talking to his teacher, that she has no idea how to motivate him and I really don't either, beyond giving him work which is actually challenging. I am willing to punish bad behavior in the classroom (i.e. disruptiveness or mouthiness, etc.) though I would rather deal with the root cause. But to me, the most important goal is for Jacob to come away from kindergarden with a postive attitude about school and I just do not see how this is going to happen if he is bored and constantly in trouble.

Thanks Bluz - I just love this advertisement. Everytime I see it, it reminds me that my kids aren't so bad. :)--> They may act that way at home from time to time, but NEVER in public. LOL

This is a difficult topic culturally and emotionally. I think it is great that we can share and learn from each other. The suggestions that there might be a physical problem, in and of themselves are not bad, I think where things went wrong is that the suggestion was repeated several times and the topic sort of got stuck there. Galen, I am impressed and touched by your responses to others here. :)--> "Two people have to be honest and determine where their interests fall. Like any area of a relationship a couple can work together and determine a middle ground. When heads butt and lines are drawn is when problems begin." I think that is the best response I have read here so far. The other side of the coin. . . . I think, sometimes, we women assume that the man in our life should be like the leading men in romantic movies - - able to read our minds, always ready to offer the emotional and physical, but nonsexual support we need. In reality, they can't read our minds any more than we can read theirs. So, we have to clearly and specifically tell them what we want. And because culturally and in general terms, men do not display affection the same way women do, we have to keep communicating with them on this subject in a non-accusatory way.

Very well said, CW. I am very fortunate to have found a man who shows his love to me outside of the bedroom to the extent that I can be totally comfortable with whatever we decide to do inside the bedroom. But it wasn't that way with my ex-husband at all. This is why I was able to understand what you were saying. It isn't that women don't think about sex or don't enjoy it, it is that we view it as a natural extension of a loving relationship - one of many (one might say a 1000)ways of expressing love, not the ONLY way of expressing love.

I have stayed out of this thread because I didn't like the direction it took. But now that CW has responded, I will speak up. If you read her posts, it is pretty clear she wasn't looking for advice on how to increase her own sex drive, what she was looking for was a better understanding of how men view sex, specifically within a long-term/marital relationship. Oen and Geo offered her some insight into this, which is wonderful. It's too bad more men aren't willing to. From a woman's perspective, some of you men might do well to remember a woman needs to feel loved and cherished outside the bedroom in order to more fully enjoy what goes on inside the bedroom. Galen, I find it very interesting that you are unwilling to share your personal experiences and perspective on male sexuality, but you are more than willing to tell everyone of your wife's difficulties. Not very nice, in my opinion.

CW, please check your private topics

I spent some time with his teacher yesterday, helping her prep for the upcoming weeks and we talked some more. Jacob is reading at a level nine, no one else in the class is above a level three. I love the idea of putting him with kids who are at the same ability level. I think I will ask if there is anyway he can go next door to the first grade classroom, just for reading. His teacher is as much at a loss over how to help him as I am. And she agrees, the paperwork really isn't that important this year, her concern is that it will be much more important next year. I still think, even in first grade, getting that upset about paperwork is silly as long as the kids are learning. I'm also not really willing to get too worried about next year until it gets here. My focus right now is simply to get through this year with Jacob viewing school as a positive experience and not a negative one.

Steve, I really don't give a rat's behind if my grammar and or spelling are perfectly accurate in my posts here. I'm not at work, I don't have to be perfect. 2. I don't have an issue with the school sending Jacob to the principal's office for not going back to class when he should have. I have an issue with the fuss they are making over his ability to "push the paper". 3. I KNOW, because the teacher has repeatedly said so, Jacob is not disruptive, mouthy, or otherwise belligerent, he simply sits quietly and daydreams instead of doing his work. 4. I DO NOT always assume first the school is wrong and my child is right and his teachers know this. I have worked toegether very well with Aaron's teachers in the past and likewise with Jacob's. Now, having met with the teacher this morning, there are only two subjects which Jacob is not doing his work for. One is reading, which ironically he is way ahead of his class in terms of ability. When asked about this, Jacob stated very clearly he is BORED with it. They sit for an hour and a half with little diversity or change and work on reading. It is simply too long for him. The other area is science. I'm not as clear on his problem with this, but if I were to guess, I would say it comes down to timing. They do science right after naps and snacks. After science they go outside to play. It is my guess, if after naps and snacks they went out to play, THEN did science, Jacob would have less trouble. He is simply rested, fed, and ready to play at that point. In either case, he knows the material, he is simply bored with sitting and doing paperwork. Which, in kindergarten, I am not overly worried about. His teacher is going to keep a daily log of what he does and does not complete - Jacob will put stickers next to those things he completed. This is fine with me, it allows me to have a better view of what is going on and it allows Jacob to feel rewarded for what he accomplishes. For the time being I'm going to leave it at that and not make a big deal out of what isn't getting done as long as I know he is learning the material i.e. how to read (which he can already do).

Yeah, ExC - I think you're right about the computer and TV (he only watches about 30 minutes a day most days anyway). The teacher is probably late 20's early 30's, pregnant with her second, her first is still a toddler. Wait til her kids start school, then she'll see things differently. I went through all of this with my oldest, except in his case he was disruptive. The irony is I knew there was something going on with him and fought like hell to get him the help he needed! My youngest, I think he is fine and they want to tell me he's not. LOL Anyway, my oldest - he's smart too and didn't get the work done in kindergarten or first grade. But now here he is in second grade and doing just fine, no problems at all. I think I am going to let the teacher know, as long as Jacob is not disruptive or otherwise behaving badly and as long as he is learning, I'm not going to worry about how much paper he can push. He has plently of time to learn how to push paper when he is older.

You guys are wonderful and funny. ExC - good question, I will ask him. In preschool he used to go to the principals office almost every nap time, because he hasn't napped since he was two. But it was never a bad thing - he would go there and color and talk and have fun in a place where he wouldn't be disturbing the kids who do nap. Hehehe, maybe he was thinking it would be the same this year. Unfortunately, the school they went to last year was shut down for not "meeting the state requirements", among other things. Its been a tough adjustment to the new school because they really did learn a lot at the other school. My oldest son is doing better at this school because it is more structured, but I don't think he is learning as much or particularly challanged. My youngest, well . . .

No, no meds. Wyteduv. My oldest takes meds, but he needs them and they help. I am far far far from convinced my youngest needs them.