Abigail

Looking forward to your thoughts, Cman!!

RG, do you see the similarity between what you are preaching and what we were taught in TWI? The attitudes that exude from your posts? 'I didn't write the book, God did' 'if you don't believe my way then you are wrong/off the Word/out of fellowship, and I am right' 'if you don't believe my way you are rejecting God' Even the 'black and white' God? All you have to do is read the OT to know that God isn't black and white and that He was full of compassion and forgiveness even before Jesus' life. Moses broke the law and married an 'unbeliever.' David ate of the shew bread. Abraham was going to commit child sacrifice. Sarah laughed at God. I could go on and on and on. Even the great ones from the OT didn't have it perfect and yet, God loved them and forgave them. When you were in TWI, were you not equally convinced that you had the "only truth" and everyone else was misled, an unbeliever, a rejector of God? Do you not recall how hard-hearted and unloving it all became? Do you not see how you appear to have fallen into that same way of thinking all over again? [As a side note - am I the only one who sees the contradiction in the notion that a God who so hated human sacrifice in the OT would set up a "plan" whereby human sacrifice (Jesus on the cross) was the ONLY way to redeem man?]

Ask away, Geisha. It is not likely I will take offense, and honestly it is not likely I will convert. Oh that I could!! It would be much simpler, living in this society, to simply converst and go with the masses!! :) Garth, Am I seriously proposing the gene theory? Ummm, not really. Do I think the gene theory COULD be right? Sure, I think it is possible. All I have to do is look at my two boys and remember what they have been like since infancy (so very different from each other too). They have convinced me that to some degree or another, our personalities are genetically programmed. So, no, I don't believe the gene theory has been proven, but I do think it could be one of many possibilities. But mostly, I was just having fun with George.

Yup, welcome to my world. I didn't get involved until after LCM was in charge and VPW was long gone. That is pretty much how LCM taught it. Eve had lesbian relations with "the serpent" :blink: As hooked as I was by the time I took the WAP class, even I had a hard time swalling that.

Aww, George, you can drive by post in the doctrinal section anytime. Btw:

Notta, maybe this will trigger your memory? I can think of two possibilities In Genesis, amongst all the begots there is Enoch who walked with God, thn was no more, because God took him away. Later, there is Elijah in 2 Kings who went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

So many conversations going on here at once, I really wish I could keep up!!! But for now I will stick with this one, because it is where I started. :) Geisha, I am going to do my best to answer your questions here, but I am not entirely sure I understand them, so I may need some additional input from you. (p.s. use smaller words so I don't have to grab my dictionary ;) ).

Geisha, I am short on time, but I wanted to respond to you. You have another post in here somewhere I want to respond to as well, if I can. I am going to attempt to place my responses in red within your reply, so the chain of thought isn't lost. :)

heehee, thanks Oaks. But I think Rainbow was actually quoting and responding to Dooj, not me. :) Still, I am guessing your sentiment applies eithe way. :)

Geisha, do not even your epistles speak somewher of those who "know not God" yet do the things of God, as being better than those who know God but do not do the things of God? It is, IMO, quite possible to follow Jesus' example without ever having heard of him. It is my opinion that "everlasting hell" is not for those who are agnostic, athiest, or some variety of non-christian. "Everlasting hell" is for those who do not love. For the religious leaders, politicians, executives, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles who are motivated by nothing more than their own greed for power, money, lust, etc. etc. Those who will knowingly and intentionally harm others to get what they want.

Okay, I will be the first to admit I am getting rusty on the gospels, but I'm going to toss this into the mix anyway. Lets say Jesus was telling the truth and not a nut case. Well, first Jesus was Jewish, so of course he believed he was a son of God. The (as in the only) that is not what I believe he was teaching, it would be contradictory with the teachings of Judaism, the teachings Jesus studied. So, what was his way? Was it the book of Romans? Nope, Romans wasn't written in Jesus' life time and Jesus didn't author it. Nor did he author any of the other epistles. So, what was his way? His way was to love the samaritan. To love the "sinner." To say, simply, "go and sin no more." I guess then, we would have to do, is understand what sin was, in the mind of Jesus. But his way was not "worship me, bow bow down to me, etc. etc." Jesus' way was simply to love. It had absolutely nothing to do with books that were written after he died. Books by people who claim they received revelation from God, which may or MAY NOT be true. There are still plenty of people out there, even today (aka VPW) who claim to get revelation from God - that doesn't make it so. So, if one assigns themself the name "Wiccan" or "Jew" or "Muslem" or "Christian" those are nothing but labels. Words. Words that mean entirely different things to different people. Jesus didn't use such words. His way was to love. He loved the Jews, he loved the samaritans, he loved the sinners. The only ones who seemed to truly anger him were those who were caught so caught up in religion and laws they couldn't see the forest for the trees. They couldn't love, they could only impose their wills upon the wills of others. BTW, I'm not sure Jesus ever did teach much that would "define" God. He offered us some glimpses of characteristics. He may have referred to him as the God of Moses, etc (though I am not sure if he did or didn't), but I don't think he ever stated one must believe in a trinity or lablel themselves Christian, or believe in Rom 10:9 & 10. I think he wanted us to follow his example of love. He wanted us to toss aside religious doctrines that enslaved and oppressed people. Geisha, you know I like you and I truly believe your intentions are good. I understand where you are coming from. But honestly, I find that what you teach is the very enslavement and oppression that Jesus stood against. I know that is a very harsh thing for me to say, given your beliefs about Jesus. But I am being honest here. I don't think you intend to enslave or oppress, but I do think that is the result nontheless.

In the interest of the thread topic (now there's a notion!!!) I took both the VPW and Martindale class. They both discussed pre-marital sex. VPW indicated it wasn't "best" but it was "acceptable" because men had needs. WD, that certainly is not a word for word quote, I will acknowledge that up front. But it was the impression left upon me, regarding this topic, after taking the class. Martindale's teaching was similar, however, I recall him saying something about how people should get their parent's permission before engaging in pre-marital sex - even if they were adults, they should have parental permission. (and I would speculate - yes, WD, speculating is allowed - that Martindale was thinking of his daughters when he added that piece about parental consent. )

Hey So! I'm a native yooper myself. Where up there did you live? You can PM me if you want, and you are by no means obligated to answering. :) I was born in the Gladstone-Escanaba area.

Aug. 12 - Moved into our new home in Mich. It is so beautiful here. The hills and river valleys are so picturesque. I have a beautiful old oak tree in my front yard. Can hardly wait to see the change of seasons. This is truly God's Country. Oct. 14 - Michigan is such a gorgeous place to live, one of the real special places on Earth. The leaves are turning a multitude of different colors. I love all of the shades of reds, oranges and yellows, they are so bright. I want to walk through all of the beautiful hills and spot some white tail deer. They are so graceful; certainly they must be the most peaceful creatures on Earth. This must be paradise. Nov. 11 - Deer season opens this week. I can't imagine why anyone would want to shoot these elegant animals. They are the very symbol of peace and tranquility. I hope it snows soon. I l ove it here! Dec. 2 - It snowed last night. I woke to the usual wonderful sight: everything covered in a beautiful blanket of white. The oak tree is magnificent. It looks like a postcard. We went out and swept the snow from the steps and driveway. The air is so crisp, clean and refreshing. We had a snowball fight. I won, and the snowplow came down the street. He must have gotten too close to the driveway because we had to go out and shovel the end of the driveway again. What a beautiful place. Nature in harmony. I love it here! Dec. 12 - More snow last night. I love it! The plow did his cute little trick again. What a rascal. A winter wonderland. I love it here! Dec. 19 - More snow - couldn't get out of the driveway to get to work in time. I'm exhausted from all of the shoveling. And that snowplow! Dec. 21 - More of that white dang coming down. I've got blisters on my hands and a kink in my back. I think that the snowplow driver waits around the corner until I'm done shoveling the driveway. ..... Dec. 25 - White Christmas? More freakin' snow. If I ever get my hands on the sonofabitch who drives that snowplow, I swear I'll castrate him. And why don't they use more salt on these roads to melt this crap?? Dec. 28 - It hasn't stopped snowing since Christmas. I have been inside since then, except of course when that SOB "Snowplow Harry" comes by. Can't go anywhere, cars are buried up to the windows. Weather man says to expect another 10 inches. Do you have any idea how many shovelfuls 10 inches is?? Jan. 1 - Happy New Year? The way it's coming down it won't melt until the 4th of J uly! The snowplow got stuck down the road and the danghead actually had the balls to come and ask to borrow a shovel! I told him I'd broken six already this season. Jan. 4 - Finally got out of the house. We went to the store to get some food and a goddamn deer ran out in front of my car and I hit the bastard. It did $5,000 in damage to the car. Those beasts ought to be killed. The hunters should have a longer season if you ask me. Jan. 27 - Warmed up a little and rained today. The rain turned the snow into ice and the weight of it broke the main limb of the oak tree in the front yard and it went through the roof. I should have cut that old piece of dang into firewood when I had the chance. May 23 - Took my car to the local garage. Would you believe the whole underside of the car is rusted away f rom all of that damn salt they dump on the road? Car looks like a bashed up, heap of rusted cow dang. May 10 - Sold the car, the house and moved to Florida . I can't imagine why anyone in their freakin' mind would ever want to live in the God forsaken State of Michigan ..

Awwww, thanks. :) Shellon, what would we do without you to remind us of the date??

Is it possible the problem is one of terminology? I know (and anyone in TWI knows) different religious sects often have their own, unique terminology. When I read the term "sorry soul" my initial gut reaction is that I have just been insulted. But within some Christian groups, everyone's soul is sorry and the phrase is not intended as an insult. I would also point out (in the interest of furthering a positive exchange here) that Geisha did not actually say she prayed for anyone's conversion, just that she prayed for your soul. Geisha, what is it about Jesus that makes him the only way to God? Is it his name (Jesus)? If so, that seems quite limiting to those who might not speak English and pronounce it or spell it a different way. Is it his teachings? His lifestyle? His heart? Do you really think God has so boxed us and Himself in that it is as literal and black and white as that? Is it possible that there is a conceptual thing within this Jesus, something bigger than the black and white that might be found within other religious groups (which are really just ways of labelling sets of beliefs)? Think on this, even within Christianity there is great diversity of thought regarding who and what Jesus is/was. So, you are convinced your brand is correct and all others are wrong? See, I think what happens at times, is one person states something that they mean with love and good intent, but is couched in religious terms that raise the hackles of someone else. Then the responses start flying and the one who spoke first gets defensive and things just spiral downhill from there. I'm wondering if we could take a deep breath and look beyond the black and white - all the way around.

Rightside, HERE IS ANOTHER LINK that may interest you. Feel free to PM me, if you'd like.

Oh give me a friggen break, Groucho! Starting your own website, with a specific purpose that is different from that of the cafe is NOT starting some freaking splinter group. And I am NOT a member of their website, because I am not corps. Is this the greasespot cult then, if their website is a splinter group? :blink:

I just wanted to suggest, IMO, it is somewhat inappropriate to bring someone into this thread who is not posting here. Whatever Hope may have said in chat, she said to the people in chat. If she had wanted to say it in this thread, she could have come here and done so. Equally important, whatever is said here is second hand information regarding what Hope said and may be somewhat inaccurate via misunderstanding and one's own personal perceptions. Okay, back to your regularly scheduled program. :)

And I as well. Generally when I do post, it is in the 'tacks forum or the doctrinal forum. I have little interested in the About the Way forums anymore, unless I think I can offer some personal experience or perspective that may benefit another. I am by and large done with and over TWI. However, there are still many people who are not. I didn't delete the My Story posts because of TWI. I will PM with my reason for doing it, as I don't wish to open that can of worms publicly. That being said, I suspect if I had asked and explained my reasons, the moderators would have deleted it for me. I don't generally delete what I have written, this was a rare exception. I think Paw and the Moderators are willing to make exceptions, they simply don't want the exceptions to become the rule. At least, I hope that to be the case. If someone put them back up now, I may be angered by it (afterall, I did delete them fair and square in the days when it was allowed ), but again, I would carry on. In fact, at this point I suspect it really wouldn't impact my life one way or another. I do realize, however, that may not be the case in someone else's situation. If the posts had remained, it may have helped me become wiser regarding the internet more quickly than I did. And yes, I was newer then and more vulnerable. (In fact it can be interesting to go back and look at those early posts and realize just how far I have come.) But again, as I have already said, I do believe leeway needs to be given to those who are new, to those who may not fully understand what can happen when you reveal personal information on the world wide web. But a decent number of us have been here long enough that at the very least, we ought to know what the consequences of such actions can be. I dunno, Satori. I too have had posts moderated, deleted, even moved to the soap forum. I can't say I was very happy about it when it occured. But, given some time and perspective I do think the moderators were doing their best to make the best decision for this place. They are human, they make mistakes too. I don't always agree with them, but I imagine they have a difficult job. And, regarding Garth's post, it appears to me you were able to give it back pretty good and your post still stands as well. So, I am not sure anyone was denied an opportunity at a "slap-down."

P.S. See, Satori, I am fully persuaded we can have a respectful, spirited, and enjoyable debate on this topic without stooping to personal attacks or violating rules. We can do that (or at least I happen to believe we can) because I also believe you and I respect each other. I have learned (thanks to my experience here at the cafe) that debating with someone who I do not respect and/or who does not respect me is ultimately a waste of my time. Not saying I don't still do it on occassion for various reasons, but I sure don't do it very often anymore. Life is too short to waste it arguing with people I don't even like. Once those minutes are gone they cannot be regained. I'd rather spend them with friends and family.

Satori, I want to preface this by stating I have a great deal of respect for you. Your posts here, in particular, helped me in ways above and beyond the posts of most others back in my early days at the cafe. But in this instance, I must respectfully disagree with you. Well I don't know about everyone else, but I certainly don't get it right the first time, the second time, and often even the third time. I gave up worrying about being perfect quite some time ago. I often leave behind typos, grammatical mistakes and misspelled words. Oh well, <shrug> I have better ways to spend my time than trying to make my posts perfect. I have even less time for those (who are also imperfect, btw) who would criticize me harshly for being imperfect. Again, I am not asking and have never asked anyone to grow up and get over it when it comes to their experience with TWI or any type of abuse. However, I do think we can and NEED to take responsibility for our actions and choices, including the words we choose to post here. Indeed, I think failing to accept such responsibility is what made it so easy for us to just "follow the leader" while in TWI. Yeah, I do get that Satori. I am not unfamiliar, having experienced such things myself, long before I ever came across the likes of TWI. Perhaps through some twist of fate I was blessed either genetically or environmentally with the inner strength to eventually face my demons and move forward with my life. Or perhaps, through some twist of fate I was forced to find the inner strength to do so, when I was no longer able to find people who would enable my weaknesses in those areas. (which isn't to say I am perfect or have no weaknesses now). In any event, I will again for the third time reiterate: I am not asking and have never asked anyone to grow up and get over it when it comes to their experience with TWI or any type of abuse. I have great empathy for those who are new here, in particular. I also am fully persuaded that Paw and the moderators do as well. I would even go so far as to bet Paw wouldn't start a thread like this over getting phone calls at 3 a.m. from someone who was new here and screwed up in a post. I would, however, bet that Paw might start a thread like this over getting phone calls at 3 a.m. from the same 3 or 4 people over and over and over again, people who have been here for 8, 9, or more years. IMO, continuing to pat these people on the head and fix their mistakes for them is simply enabling them and isn't truly helping them. I'd even take it a step further and suggest that if, after 8, 9 or more years here you are still feeling incapable of coping because of your experiences with TWI or any other form of abuse - then maybe one ought to consider professional help. This place provides information and an opportunity to vent and exchange experiences, ideas and opinions, but it is not a replacement for professional counseling if that is what one needs. As you said yourself, this place is a passive place. It is a place to receive information, perhaps vent, debate, give and receive empathy. But overall, at some point in time one has to become active in their own healing and recovery. While I do believe there is some form of "group therapy" that can and at times does take place here, I don't believe we have any professionals acting in a professional capacity here. Some people simply may need to seek professional help to move them along their journey of healing. And just maybe the problem here isn't Paw or the moderators and isn't the rules or how they are enforced. Perhaps the problem here is that some of us old-timers simply need to move on and make room for the newcomers. You, me, Dot, Sushi, WW, ExC, Garth, Oakspear, Rocky, Groucho - man the list could go on and on and on. We've been here since the beginning - many are from WayDale days. Perhaps we need to look within ourselves and ask "are we contributing to the solution or are we part of the problem?" Perhaps we need to ask "what am I getting out of this place anymore?" "Is this just a replacement for a social life for me or am I here because I truly want to help those who are still processing out of TWI?" I am not suggesting the people I have named must leave and never post here again. I am simply suggesting we look within ourselves and ask ourselves what it is we are contributing to this place and what it is we are getting out of it.

That is a rather telling statement, Satori. All the time? Do you not ever learn from your mistakes? Do you have an impulse control problem that prevents you from walking away for a bit and then re-reading what you wrote before you hit the send button? Of course I have written things I have regretted. In fact, I deleted nearly every post in "My Story" back in the day when such things could be done. I also learned from my mistakes and continue to learn from them. I've taken responsibility for my words and when I've had to, I've come back and explained myself better or sent a PM to an offended party to hash things out. I didn't realize the purpose of Greasespot was to entertain you. And, BTW, a good truly good debate, IMO, is one that doesn't require personal attacks, but one that has well presented arguments from all sides. I'm sure this can, has, and still does occur on occassion. I too have sympathy for those new people who occassionally make this mistake. But, funny thing is, I'm betting it is often the same handful of people who make the same "mistake" over and over and over again and most of them have been around the cafe for years and years now. So, again, when will they learn? when will they grow up and take some responsibility for their own choices??

Yeah, well, you can't please all of the people even some of the time. Sometimes you just have to put your big girl or big boy panties on and deal with things you don't like - or set a boundary and walk away. That is just life. I'm not asking anyone to "get over" being raped, abused, manipulated, etc. I'm simply suggesting people take responsibility for their own lives. Take responsibility for the words you post. Take responsibility for deciding to hit the "reply" button.