Abigail

If you had family in when you left TWI, the last couple of episodes will really hit home.

this probably won't be a popular response but I think the difference is religion, ego,power, etc. I would follow the gospels before I would follow the epistles. i am with you 100% on this.

Are any of you in the area?

Have any of you been watching this series on Hulu? I read that the show was originally supposed to be called "The Way" but they had to change the name because of the similarities to TWI. I have been watching it. The first few episodes have a few similarities to TWI, but as the show goes on I see more and more, particularly with respect to the change in leadership from VPW TO LCM.

Genealogy can be time consuming, but very, very interesting. Our very own Hap from here at Greasespot got me started on it a number of years ago. I was able to pull all sorts of documents including immigration records, census data, etc. and I learned a great deal about my family in the process and even met (on-line) some relatives I didn't know I had. :)/> But I've never spent the time to try and find records from Eastern Europe and my family on both sides did not immigrate to the US until the early 1900s. Ancestry.com is definitely the way to go if you want to put together a family tree. You don't have to buy a year long subscription. You can buy one that is only for 1 month or 3 months, grab what you need and be done. At least, that was how it worked the last time I subscribed to them, which was quite a while back now. Does your dad know where his parents' families from? Or when? Or what their names were before they came to the US? That information can also be very helpful. Also, if you want to trace your Jewish heritage you can check out a mormon website that has tracked Jewish Geneaology and I believe their site is free - though incomplete. There is also another website called JewGen that has information, although I have always found it diffficult to navigate.

No offense taken, Tom. I most certainly cannot speak for all Jews, but from my perspective it isn't an issue of righteousness or lack thereof. The focus in Judaism isn't the afterlife - it isn't about heaven or hell. In fact, Judaism doesn't believe in the concept of hell and there is much debate among Jewish people regarding the concept of heaven as well. :) Perhaps, ask your dad to explain the Days of Awe and Yom Kippur to you. Those are two of the most important Jewish holy days and understanding them might give you a good understanding of the Jewish perspective on life and death. The focus, at least from my perspective, is simply on the here and now. How to live the life I have been given. Fairly down to earth and practicAL. But then, I am not orthodox either. Like many American Jews I pick and choose. I observe those things that make sense to me. I focus on the ethics, not the rituals. I do observe those rituals that speak to my heart, but I don't worry about those that do not make sense to me or just plain do not speak to me.

Here are a few links for you. The forefathers of the Ashkenazi community began to settle in parts of Europe during the Roman Empire, particularly after the Romans conquered Jerusalem in AD 70. Ashkenazis now make up more than 80 percent of world Jewry. They moved to Spain, France, Italy and other Mediterranean basin countries, but spread over the centuries to the Rhineland in Germany, Poland and Russia. Frequent persecution kept their numbers small. Modern Ashkenazi Jews are believed to descend from about 1,500 Jewish families dating back to the 14th century. But Darvasi said the forefathers of today's Ashkenazis came from an even smaller gene pool. Darvasi said "maybe 500 families were really the source of the total (Ashkenazi) population today...probably in the order of 100 independent chromosomes", because they enjoyed better nutrition and had lower infant mortality rates than less affluent Jews. Above from here "Some disease mutations unusually common in Ashkenazi Jews... include Tay-Sachs disease and some forms of breast cancer, high cholesterol and hemophilia. ... It just happened that those who founded the Ashkenazi Jewish population had disease mutations and passed them along to their children. Because Ashkenazi Jews tend to marry within their own population, those mutations remained common.... He [Dr. Neil Risch of Stanford University Medical Center, working with colleagues] found three points in time when mutations entered the population. One mutation has been in the Jewish population for 120 generations - around the time that the Jewish people formed a distinct population in the Middle East. This mutation causes a type of hemophilia called Factor 11 deficiency type II. The majority of the mutations - including all of the mutations in lysosomal storage genes - entered the population when the Ashkenazi Jews formed a coherent group about 50 generations ago. The final mutations cropped up in the Lithuanian Ashkenazi Jews about 12 generations ago." Above from Here

Coming back to your initial question. :)/>/>/> Since joining this discussion I began googling Jewish Genetic Disorders. It appears that science has come a long ways since I was first asked what tribe I come from and a LOT of scientific data is available. So, after researching this - "Are the people there really the children of Israel. Can they traice their lineage back to biblical Israel?" Yes, yes they can. As a ethnic group/nationality - Jews are broken down into two basic subgroups (there are other subgroups as well, but for the purpose of this discussion we'll stick with the two that have been most studied). There are the Ashkenazi Jews of Eastern Europe and there are the Sephardic Jews of Spain and the mediterranean. The vast majority of DNA studies have been performed on Ashkenazi Jews, in part because the majority of Jewish Genetic disorders are more prevelant amoung them. One of the primary reasons for this has to do with the fact that Sephardic Jews assimilated and intermarried earlier, and more frequently than Ashkenazi Jews. Sephardic Jews were forced to convert to Christianity and assimilate. Ashkenazi Jews, by and large, only married within their own nationality/culture up until my mother's generation. As a result for the most part the DNA is more "pure" or perhaps better put, has not been mingled with other ethnic groups. There are a number of genetic disorders that occur at significantly higher rate among Ashkenazi Jews than among any other nationality. The one I was asked about was Tay Sach's disease, but there are a number of others as well. These disorders can occur as fequently as 1 in 100 amoung Ashkenazi Jews - as opposed to 1 in 3,500 or so in other nationalities. In the process of studying these genetic disorders, scientists have traced the Ashkenazi Jewish line back to the middle east. They believe that what happened was after the fall of the second temple a "somewhat smaller" group of Jews migrated to Turkey, then Iraq, and eventually to Eastern Europe. They did not assimilate ino the various societies, but instead remained relatively isolated and continued to only marry within their nationality. Now, back to Isreael. The vast majority of Jews who immigrated to Israel were Ashkenazi Jews, fleeing before, during, and after WW2. A large number of American Jews are also of Ashkenazi descent. So yes, I believe the Jews in Israel are of the same bloodline as the Jews of Biblical days. Edit to fix the many typos - OY, must drink more coffee!!

Exactly, Ham. Abraham fathered children by two different women. Yet, only through one of those women came the nation of Israel.

Before thre were Jews there were Israelites and then Hebrews. It was not God who broke up the nation of Israel, it was man who did that. All "Jews" are of Israel. All "Jews" are of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I would suspect, based on your question, that you read the Old Testament from the perspective of a Christian and not the perspective of a Jewish person. The Torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament. It primarily contains the early history of humanity, and more importantly the commandments of God. The rest of the Old Testament is historical. Just because something occured, does not mean God willed it to be so. Just because the Jewish nation was (and still is) divided, does not mean God willed it to be so. Nor does it mean Jewish people will it to be so. Whether one is from the tribe of Judah or the tribe of Dan - we are all still of Abrham, Isaac, and Jacob and though in modern venacular we may call ourselves Jews, we are in truth Israelites.

Thanks for the reply, Abigail. Why is it that your grandmother can trace her lineage, but you can't? Is it because lineage is counted patriarchal-wise, as we were taught in TWI? And your grandmother is your maternal grandmother? Do the genetic disorders specific to the tribe of Benjamin only transmit through the paternal lines? Hi Tom, always good to converse with you. It may be that I could trace the lineage back if I tried, but thus far I haven't tried to go back that far. Similarly, I don't know how my maternal grandmother was able to do it and she is no longer with us for me to ask. I only recall her telling me what tribe I stem from on her side of the family. But, if I were to speculate I coud take a couple of pretty solid educated guesses. One would simply be through oral histories from generation to generation within the family. The other would be through Synagogue documents. When a Jew is born and given their Hebrew name, documentation of the birth, name, and family history are kept by the Synagogue. I have such a naming certificate, that my grandmother gave to me many years ago. It doesn't trace my lineage all the way back, but I would imagine if I had a copy of my grandmothers, and then my great grandmothers, etc. etc. that I could trace it back eventually. I am not sure if the genetic disorder from the tribe of Benjamin is passed by the father, mother or both. Again, I haven't researched it in depth. But, I have had several physicians ask me (in my younger years when I was starting a family) if I knew what tribe I was from, so they could determine if they needed to test me for it. I'm sure there is information about it on-line. Is the lineage counted patricarchal-wise? Well, in some respects the Torah would lead us to believe so, but the lineage is also counted through the mother. For instance, if a child is born from a mixed marriage, it is only considered Jewish if the mother is Jewish. The rationale being that (at least prior to DNA testing) one could be certain of who a child's mother was, but paternity could not be verified. Of course, some of the more ultra orthodox sects would argue a child born of a mixed marriage is not truly Jewish regardless of which parent is Jewish. Other ultra orthodox sects would argue that even a chld from a Christian, Muslem, or any other background could potentially be Jewish, in that so many Jews were forced to convert throughout history. Also wondering, why do you need a nation to belong to? Isn't the USA or whatever nation enough? Of all immigrant groups, Jews have maintained their heritage & prospered more than most in the US. There were, and still are, Jewish people who would agree with you. There are others who would strongly disagree. A large majority of Jewish people in the USA assimilated and gave up their heritage. And while some prospered, others did not. I am from such a family. On my father's side they were wealthy, secular Jews. On my mother's side, they were poor religious Jews - my great grandfather was a bootlegger for the Purple Gang in Detroit. The two did not often mingle and such marriages as my parents had were highly frowned upon. By my parent's generation, and to some extent even my grandmother's generation, many of the traditions were given up in favor of assimilation. Although Jewish people were certainly welcome to this country, like other immigrants who came here, they were also often harassed for being different/strange. Even in my mother's generation (as well as my own) we were not so welcome. My parents were harrassed throughout their childhood for being Jewish. I have cousins who to this very day will not wear a Star of David in public, for fear of being identified as a Jew and being harassed. The mother of one of my best friends used to call me "that dirty Jew girl" and she couldn't stand me, because I was not Christian. I was teased a lot as a young child as well. And the irony was that my parents did not practice Judaism. We celebrated Christmas and Easter like everyone else and I even went to Catechism as a child. In the present day, there are a lot of Jewish people who are returning to their family traditions. They don't want to see the traditions lost. I am one of those, althought I am not and never will be orthodox. Loss of tradition though assimilation is one reason many Jewish people want a nation of their own. But perhaps even more than that is the risk and fear that history could repeat itself. Hitler was far from the first to persecute and kill Jewish people. Irland was once a second home to many Jewish people, and then it wasn't. Spain was once a second home to many Jewish people, and then it wasn't. Poland, Hungary, Lithuania and so on it went. So, you have many Jewish people who want a nation of their own. I would be counted among them, altough I have not yet ever been to Israel. I have done a lot of reading on it and would like to go some day. I do have family members who have made their home there. Conversely, there are other Jewish people who were and are opposed to a Jewish Nation (or at least the way Israel as we know it today came about). They feel that when God calls us back to Israel, He will do so without Jewish people having to "force His hand" through politics and war. It can all get very complicated. There are many, many divisions among the Jewish people. The wealthier secular/political Jewish people v the poorer more orthodox Jewish people. The various sects and how they apply the laws, etc. etc. And then there are the things that bind us together despite our differences - - the Sabbath Candles on Friday nights, Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur. We argue, we fight, we disagree, and yet we are still one people. :) Just wondering, you don't have to get into it, but you brought it up, where have the Jews been the persecutors? Well, just going through the Torah alone, there were many instances where the Jewish people took over a land and killed off or enslaved the inhabitants. And then there is the conflict in our century between the Palestinians and the Jewish people. While I am most certainly in favor of a Jewish nation, I do take issue with some of the methods that were and are used to get us there. Intially the Palestinian people welcomed the Jewish people and they lived side by side fairly peacefully. Following World War II and the Balfore (spelling) Decree, the Palestinians became second class citizens who were often forcefully removed from their homes, harrassed, beaten up, etc. etc. While they weren't mass murdered the way the Jewish people in Europe were. . . still, one would think that the experience of World War II would have left the Jewish people immigrating to Palestine/Israel more empathetic towards the plight of the Palestinians who were living there. BTW, Jewish people (well most of us) dont' see ourselves as "God's chosen people" in the way that some Christians do. We are taught that all humans are God's children, regardless of religion or nationality. The only thing that distinguishes Jewish people from non-Jewish people is that the Jewish people made a committment to God at Mt. Sinai to obey additional commandments that the rest of the people are not subject to. Many Jewish people, including myself, believe it is our duty to make our homes and communities a better place to be. A peaceful, loving place to be. To give back to the community we live in. Many Christians believe likewise, yes? So in the end, our rituals may be different, but our goals perhaps are not.

I can't personally trace my lineage back to Israel, but my Grandmother said she could, right down to the tribe. It is actually important for Jewish people to know what tribe they come from, as there are genenetic disorders that are specific to the tribe of Benjamin. As a Jewish person, the significance of Israel comes down to one thing and one thing only. It is not related at all to the Messiah, but to having a nation . . . a home where one could theoretically live without fear of persecution. Sadly, at various points in history during this past century I suspect some of the Jews have been the persecutors instead of the persecuted. :( In terms of what Israel means doctrinally, that will vary greatly from denomination to denomination. Even the Jews don't have an agreement on that doctrinal issue.

It was Tom and Lois Guelli who were the limb leaders in Michigan in the 1990s who were removed. Allen and Debbie came in and replaced them as limb leaders. They left when the "one time affair" came out and were then replaced by John and Joyce Neize (sp). I think they Neize's are still in charge there, at least that was the last I had heard.

*waves hi** Good question. What was lost and what was gained? Layers. Innocence was lost and shame replaced it. Before he ate, Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil. After he ate he did. Before he ate he could know no shame. After he ate he could. Clothed in animal skin? In what form was Adam before he ate and in what form was the animal skin? We assume Adam was just like us, but maybe he wasn't?

The sins of the fathers are passed down to the children. Research family dynamics and it becomings glaringly clear. Abuse your children and odds are very high that they will grow up to become abusers or will grow up and continue to be abused in their adult relationships. Have a parent who is an alcoholic and you greatly increase the odds that the child will be as well. How can they be saved? Maybe they can't? Maybe God in His foreknowledge already knew that for some, there is no saving them - - free will. Or maybe there is another life after this one, where one can come to find that salvation - or maybe . . . .

This thread is very interesting to me. I haven't given much conscious thought to the notion of the idiom of permission, although my studies in Judaism have certainly undone my believe in that theory. I am with you on this one. I think we apply our own standards and perspetives on these verses and try to make them fit what we already believe. But in truth, I think God does play a role in things that we would consider to be atrocities. I don't understand the whys and sometimes I get really ticked off at God for those things. But then again, Moses, Abraham, many of the great prophets argued with God. I think that tells us that in our relationship with Him, it is okay to disagree, get angry, hash it out, etc. In the end, I'd have to leave it simpy at "all things work together for good to them that love God." and say I don't understand it, but I have to have faith that in the end, it will work together for good towards whatever God's purpose is.

That is a possibility that has crossed my mind as well. But, I've "known" Johniam on this board for many, many, many years. And we've had a few conversations off the board. Trolling? Playing devils advocate? Maybe. But I don't think so.

I don't know, I read Johniam's posts. Having spent 10 years with a verbally, physically, and sexually abusive wayfer husband who held those same opinions as Johniam's all I can think is that he is a very weak, frightened little boy who has a deep seated hatred for women. He feels powerless, immasculated, and angry like the 2 year old in the midsts of a temper tantrum. Its a sickness. It truly is a sickness. Unfortunately, none of us here are really qualified to treat such a sickness. Even in the world of psychotherapy few are able to successful treat those who are so deeply ill. The other thing that comes to mind is that something reall, really screwed up must have happened to Johniam in his formative years. Something so awful and tragic that he was never able to recover from it. Its funny how the victims can at times empathize with the perpetrator's no? Do you think that is one of the vulnerablilities predators pick up on? That the victim is capable of empathizing or understanding the predator's sickness?

Skyrider, ask yourself why he would defend a predator. Defend said predator over and over and over again. The answer to that question is disturbing no? Downright scary and creepy if you ask me.

Nope, I don't think you're insane. I think you nailed it squarely on the head. Boundaries, eh, ExC? Sound like this guy was trying to push yours and get to your son. There are some real sick SOBs out there in the world.

LOL. You are a master baiter Johniam. I'm glad your thankful your boundaries were moved. lol

There are self defense courses that teach you proper body language. How to hold your head high and look straight ahead. How to properly meet a strangers gaze and for how long - so you know when to look away, etc. But, one of the problems is being assaulted by a stranger is far less common than being attacked by an aquaintance/friend/family member/spouse/authority figure. Often it isn't the stranger but someone you know. Its much harder to hide such vulnerabilities from someone you have regular contact with.

I am in complete agreement with you on this Waysider and can add to it. Statistically girls who are sexually assaulted before becoming adults are far more likely to be sexually assalted again as adults. I think part of that is boundaries. There are boundaries that are destroyed when that happens to someone so young and predators know how to read body language and facial expressions and they pick up on subtlies most of us don't see. The way one carries themself, whether you look someone in the eye with confidence or fear or distrust. There are variables and predators are expert at reading people and know who will be the most vulnerable target.

ExC, I love the courage you have to speak out and say it all. Some day I hope to have that kind of courage.