Dot Matrix

:)-->

Sun Your account is very similar to mine. Except Mrs. W was the woman who entered the coach and, I too, saw it as a means to escape.

Let's see- We were asked about our study/research time... Our physical fitness time... Our Witnessing -- I think but they may have been under outreach Was Abundant Sharing one? Shoot.... I cannot recall Under one heading it was about if you take the Initiative to do things... if you go above and beyond... Was there one on how we do under leadership or obeying or some crap?

I do not have a great grasp of the intricacies of the Bible. But I am a recipient of God’s love and have seen his power and love throughout my life. Reading the gospels he seems like a great guy of gentleness, kindness and love. He really did a lot of great things like heal the sick and feed the hungry, but I am still not clear on why God had to have a son die to redeem mankind legally. (But if someone had to go through all that to redeem us I am sure thankful he did it) However, I have a lot of attorney friends and I tried to explain to them what I learned via VPW as I really have never read it anywhere else (I am sure, however, if he wrote it – it was first written else where) I do think it makes much more sense that he WAS a man rather than a God/man otherwise who would really care if a God/man went through what he did, after all he would be God and it would not be as big of a deal. (So, I do not believe in the trinity although, I did at one time and he loved me anyway.) I do know that when I asked him into my heart, I was changed. I still did not have answers but something was very different within the core of me. Then, later after picturing him in my heart for years, I invited him to get up and walk around. I invited him into locked doors and old dusty wiring that had been in place for years…. Then I started to see changes in my life. I saw things I had done a certain way for years, really could be done differently with a better outcome… I saw deliverance from pain I had carried. I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am grateful to him for what he did to enable us to live above the quagmire. I do not really get WHY he had to do it. If I were God I would have just wiped out Lucifer and his buddies and started over again…. But hey, that’s just me… And through much trial and error, I have found that God’s plans have been better than mine. Jesus Christ is my Lord, my savior, my confidant, my friend, my warrior, my deliverer, my spine to stand and my heart to love. That is who Jesus is to me.

Raf just changed his but I do not know how he did it. Perhaps you can contact PAW.

Wonder1 wrote the first part OM is the response. But I will tell you if I was at work and a coworker called me into their office and sat naked and asked me to perform a lewd act I would screammmmmm! Then sue. Again, people think VP just did this to a handful of gals... It was hundreds. It was NO mistake. It was an "on purpose" over and over again.

On another thread OM just said he would go to a local TWI fellowship if one were close to him. So, he never left TWI in his heart or actions. Really, he is still "in" and still holding the torch for VPW. Still valuing the message of a madman and trying to carry it forth here. He is a real live example of why we all left. Don't ever expect change. He is an innie with a traffic Dilemma...

Wolf That link went to Victims no longer and it was great. http://www.victimsnolonger.org.uk/home.htm

If you miss your Dad's retirement party because you are afraid if you leave the field to go, your lack of commitment to be on the field that week, might kill him.

I remember thinking, I will never stay in this ministry now that Craig is really really in charge. VPW's death? I had sent him a letter telling him I thought he had been deceived by spirits and told him why. I wondered what he thought of the letter. I wondered if he was a sick phock up until the end. Then, I planned to get out of TWI. The plan was for a slow backing away. It became much more hastey after the POP paper was read. I was angry at VPW for not straightening things out before he died. For not stepping up to the plate and denouncing his SICK practices and in front of the believers & asking forgiveness so that we as a group could heal.

It is sad. But I am through feeling sorry for those two or three people. They have been given the truth. They have had the clouds blown from their vision and choose to follow the clouds. So OM and M -- enjoy your defense of a criminal. Maybe when God himself tells you that you were deceived you will accept what he says. Maybe...

Laleo My opinion is not meant as a swipe to you. You have a beautiful heart and a compelling way of posturing your opinions. But you did say: “However, I still think that oldiesman's points can be debated rather than dismissed, because the victim does have a role, whether we want to acknowledge it here or not. In your examples of rapists, and Oprah, and women who meet men who suck their life savings from them -- none of us wants to be that person. Those predators will always exist, not only in The Way, where many of us met people who should have been in prison long before we crossed paths with them, but also outside of The Way. Simply leaving The Way is no more a guarantee for happiness than was being in The Way. At some point, the changes have to come from within.” I believe that most women on here who have revealed their corps experiences with VPW have moved on. You can talk about high school, can you not? Who does not remember a person who was not welcome at the lunch table or never chosen for sides at sports? We all know that person and perhaps some of us were that person. Because that person then speaks of their experiences, perhaps to their own child going through them currently, does not imply they have not moved on. IT does not mean that given the situations today they would not have LEARNED from the experience. The problem here, as I see it, is that this is an XWAY site. People come here to find out what happened and to heal. And if those of us who KNOW and experienced the core issues of deceit when we got close to VPW can help those people by letting them KNOW what we KNOW then we should. Would anyone go on a "cancer" site and tell those who have fought the disease to stop sharing their stories? Does aides go away if it is not discussed? Or perhaps by telling people "I got it" and HOW they got it, they can prevent another casualty. So why here? The concern, again is a subtle attack, once someone brings it up – if they ever bring it up again those in the gallery of the sexual abuse think, “Well, look at that, they are still not over it.” And perhaps some are not. I am. But even if some are not who are we to mandate healing? I am completely aware that predators are not the genesis of TWI and have been around as long as the devil has been walking the earth and it is a bit ludicrous to think I would need reminding of that. However, this again, weakens the position of the one sharing their experience. Let’s not hear them, let us point out THEIR fallacies. Gee, a little girl rides a bike and is grabbed off the street. Damn. The lesson? She should never ride a bike. The woman asleep in her bed who is raped. Damn. Never go to sleep. The gal who is drug behind a bush. Well, stay away from landscaping. The woman asked out on a date, then loved and married a man who drained her account? Don’t date. And God forbid you should ever want to learn about Jesus from a man…. This does not negate some responsibility in "some" cases. I should not lend my car to a stranger, or open my door at 3:00 am to a knock.... But there are many situations where you are just a victim. The reason, as I see it, that perhaps we humans try so hard to make it "the victims fault" is because we want to believe we have more control over our lives and we are not as vulnerable as we REALLY are in life. So, if we can see "a reason" this happened to her and avoid that REASON then we can prevent it from happening to ourselves... But to the victims, this thing that we do to each other, is extremely damaging. And although most people who respond in that way (that it could have been prevented) do so out of their own fears, there are some serial bullys who pleasure in wounding the wounded... Or in this case use that hurtful response to protect the offender. First, upon speaking up one is met with, it is why should we believe you? Then, it is how many others did this happen to? Then, it is have you accepted responsibility for your part? (Yes, I went into a motor coach to discuss Jesus with a man who said he had a special promise from God --- Oh my! I should not go places to talk to ministers about God.) Then there are the rantings of the Move on! You must forgive squad! The point is ALL the people screaming “move on” “I do not believe you” “recognize your part” is still by design to draw people away from recognizing VPW was a criminal so that his crimes via his legacy can live on. AND the victims can continue to be humiliated and not heard. There are many lessons in life. Do not leave your open drink at a party then come back and drink it. Don’t go to a remote ATM at night. BUT now we cannot jog alone, sleep in our own beds without a weapon on the nightstand and never trust a man who claims to work for God…. That is how we are to live if we accept culpability for crimes perpetrated against us. Sorry a$$ living conditions, eh? My relative was attacked in the early evening hours while pumping gas yesterday. He was struck across the head with something then had fists flying at him. He was able to push away the attacker and drive off. Unsure if it was an attepted car jacking or what, he is now afraid to go outside. The lesson? He should have never gotten gas. But when he came home with his head bloody and swollen.... the first thing I said was what happened? And then I thought there had to be something he could have done to prevent this. I then reprooved myself and let him tell me over and over how frightened he was. How helpless he felt. How he drove and hid behind a fast food place because he did not want to be followed to our house. It is irresponsible for society to constantly hang a sign around the neck of the victim saying "I bear the responsibility for the crime perpetrated against me." Oldiesman is not speaking to save women from being hurt again. His motive is clear to me that he is protecting VPW. You, on the other hand, are a heart-felt woman who for some reason feels for him. I am not confusing your beauty with his deception. I disagree with you but I still esteem you. I know you and you are a heck of a gal! But your kind words or assessment of oldiesman are wasted on him, in my opinion. I think he knows what he is doing and he does it well.

In my opinion: When last we left of with our heroes, Rockee and Bullwinkle…. Oh wrong cartoon…. When at first I saw the things said by OM they did strike a chord with me. A discord if you will. I saw great posts come to the aid of a woman who had posted how VP had abused her. Om’s tone was to minimize and get things slightly off track and I saw this very effective method used by him repeatedly. Goes something like this… Well, even John Lynn mentioned he knew about the spiking of the drinks (with maybe a form of the date rape drug). Om did not retreat in horror or say anything remotely like “shutter at the thought…” Instead he asked something like, “Well how many times?” This pushed us forward on the same GENERAL topic; however, it was now on the access road and not the hwy. We were no longer looking at the horrendous deed of drugging parishioners in a church to be able to force an old fat man’s penis into them. But we were directed to look at the “numbers”. Subtle. Manipulative. By design a way to take things away from the actual nightmare some women have been forced to live with. On another or several discussions, when brought to the board how VPW stalked women like a hunter stalking a deer, a woman shared how VPW got her into the coach by inviting her on a little road trip. I believe the road trip was to go to another campus and visit her fianc? (Nice lure) then, as she slept in the motor coach the next thing she knows he was on her and as she wrestled repeating “no” VPW continued to force the situation until he had penetrated her body with his. OM then said something like “Why didn’t the women say no? They could have gotten out of there. There was no gun to their heads” It again steered the conversation from the heinous crime of rape, compounded by the fact that THIS man was offering “Jesus” as a lure to be a successful predator. On one of the occasions he then took the conversation to “how old were they?” It was Alfa cat and Long gone who were so very lucid in spotting the attacks on the poor girl who had just bared her soul and they pointed out the systematic dismissing and steering the topic away from the CRIMINAL worthy of JAIL TIME acts committed by a serial felon to a discussion about age. Then, in one of the MANY times OM was successful, Laleo who is one of the most provocative writers the site has, wrote the most beautiful blurb on his defense. I reacted to HER writings instead of staying on the trail like a bloodhound to expose “the patterns” OM uses to victimize victims and to praise the felon. She spoke so beautifully about how he was the guy in twig who lent people his car and brought food to twig and was always there for people. And all of us KNOW “that guy” his name is not Phil or OM but we all know a guy like that. Laleo tapped into my soul and the heart of many who identified with such a guy as she was describing (she does not know him personally either). Then, the thread took a turn to be kind to OM because we all had someone in mind with the descriptive prose. We feel in love with her gorgeous writing skills and heart that she penned. Unfortunately, I think her compelling paragraph had little to do with "this" sly man. I fell in love with her words. I allowed her words to influence me in my own assessment of OM. And because Laleo is kind and has a caring heart I just dropped out of the fight. But the fighting continued….. On and on and on and on and on….. I went back and started to pull threads where OM had spoken and saw patterns. I even posted what I was seeing at that time. But nothing stopped him because he is/was successful. Oldies has used his counsel like a smooth defense attorney to distract, blame, counter, dismiss and humiliate the victim. Taking their already weak area of pain and applying pressure to the wound. The biggest reason a person does not report sexual crime? For fear they will not be believed. Oldies’ modus operandi: Keep applying pressure by changing a word to lighten the actual events, so that the jury dismisses the charges, and allegations and views the victim as an hysterical liar. Out of frustration, he has been called and thought of as hardheaded or stupid which I also wondered and perhaps voiced. But after a while, when you see his success rate and his patterns, I recognize him as a brilliant opponent, diabolically brilliant. (IMO) VPW was a bully as a criminal as OM is a sly bully in defense of the criminal VPW. Then I actually found this written and it applied to VPW the criminal and his lawyer (tongue in cheek) Oldiesman. The serial bully: http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm#Guru It is NOT harmless. Here is exposure: a) Denial: the bully denies everything. Variations include Trivialization ("This is so trivial it's not worth talking about...") and the Fresh Start tactic ("I don't know why you're so intent on dwelling on the past" and "Look, what's past is past, I'll overlook your behavior and we'll start afresh") - this is an abdication of responsibility by the bully (or the followers of THE bully who became bullies themselves) and an attempt to divert and distract attention by using false conciliation. Imagine if this line of defense were available to all criminals ("Look I know I've just murdered 12 people but that's all in the past, we can't change the past, let's put it behind us, concentrate on the future so we can all get on with our lives" - this would do wonders for prison overcrowding). b) Retaliation: the bully counterattacks. The bully quickly and seamlessly follows the denial with an aggressive counter-attack of counter-criticism or counter-allegation, often based on distortion or fabrication. Lying, deception, duplicity, hypocrisy and blame are the hallmarks of this stage. The purpose is to avoid answering the question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for their behavior. Often the target (victim) is tempted - or coerced - into giving another long explanation to prove the bully's allegation false; by the time the explanation is complete, everybody has forgotten the original question. Both a) and b) are delivered with aggression in the guise of assertiveness; in fact there is no assertiveness (which is about recognizing and respecting the rights of oneself and others) at all. Note that explanation - of the original question - is conspicuous by its absence. If you're dealing with a serial bully who has just exhibited this avoidance tactic, sit passively and draw attention to the pattern of behavior they've just exhibited, and then the purpose of the tactic. Then ask for an answer to the question. Bullies also rely on the denial of others and the fact that when their target reports the abuse they will be disbelieved ("are your sure this is really going on?", "I find it hard to believe - are you sure you're not imagining it?"). Frequently targets are asked why they didn't report the abuse before, and they will usually reply "because I didn't think anyone would believe me." Sadly they are often right in this assessment. Because of the Jekyll & Hyde nature, compulsive lying, and plausibility, no-one can - or wants - to believe it.. Denial features in most cases of sexual assault, as in the case of Paul Hickson, the UK Olympic swimming coach who sexually assaulted and raped teenage girls in his care over a period of 20 years or more. When his victims were asked why they didn't report the abuse, most replied "Because I didn't think anyone would believe me". Abusers confidently, indeed arrogantly, rely on this belief, often aggressively inculcating (instilling) the belief ("No-one will ever believe you") just after the sexual assault when their victim is in a distressed state. Targets of bullying in the workplace often come up against the same attitudes by management when they report a bullying colleague. In a workplace environment, the bully usually recruits one or two colleagues (sometimes one is a sleeping partner ) who will back up the bully's denial when called to account. Oldies man, you are a genius as a defense attorney. Now after he is exposed again. The usual is that he will either say he did not mean to hurt anyone, he will accommodate his client, "Weirwille", by now pointing the finger at the victim again and remind the victim that she needs to forgive.... Again, another sly attack on the person speaking up...

This reminds me of the folks who trivialize the posture of the victims of TWI. Those who call the preditory sexual behavior "when you slept together?" or "when he slipped up a few times in his marraige" or the "there was no gun at your head" logic. (Making the victim share blame.) So I see this as VPW AND those who still choose to turn a blind eye. It is a mental thing, there are tatics and it is designed to victimize the victim again. It is NOT harmless a) Denial: the bully denies everything. Variations include Trivialization ("This is so trivial it's not worth talking about...") and the Fresh Start tactic ("I don't know why you're so intent on dwelling on the past" and "Look, what's past is past, I'll overlook your behaviour and we'll start afresh") - this is an abdication of responsibility by the bully (or the followers of THE bully who became bullys themselves) and an attempt to divert and distract attention by using false conciliation. Imagine if this line of defence were available to all criminals ("Look I know I've just murdered 12 people but that's all in the past, we can't change the past, let's put it behind us, concentrate on the future so we can all get on with our lives" - this would do wonders for prison overcrowding). b) Retaliation: the bully counterattacks. The bully quickly and seamlessly follows the denial with an aggressive counter-attack of counter-criticism or counter-allegation, often based on distortion or fabrication. Lying, deception, duplicity, hypocrisy and blame are the hallmarks of this stage. The purpose is to avoid answering the question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for their behaviour. Often the target is tempted - or coerced - into giving another long explanation to prove the bully's allegation false; by the time the explanation is complete, everybody has forgotten the original question. Both a) and b) are delivered with aggression in the guise of assertiveness; in fact there is no assertiveness (which is about recognizing and respecting the rights of oneself and others) at all. Note that explanation - of the original question - is conspicuous by its absence. When called to account for the way they have chosen to behave, mature adults do not respond by bursting into tears. If you're dealing with a serial bully who has just exhibited this avoidance tactic, sit passively and draw attention to the pattern of behaviour they've just exhibited, and then the purpose of the tactic. Then ask for an answer to the question. Bullies also rely on the denial of others and the fact that when their target reports the abuse they will be disbelieved ("are your sure this is really going on?", "I find it hard to believe - are you sure you're not imagining it?"). Frequently targets are asked why they didn't report the abuse before, and they will usually reply "because I didn't think anyone would believe me." Sadly they are often right in this assessment. Because of the Jekyll & Hyde nature, compulsive lying, and plausibility, no-one can - or wants - to believe it. Click here for a detailed explanation of the target's reluctance to report abuse. Denial features in most cases of sexual assault, as in the case of Paul Hickson, the UK Olympic swimming coach who sexually assaulted and raped teenage girls in his care over a period of 20 years or more. When his victims were asked why they didn't report the abuse, most replied "Because I didn't think anyone would believe me". Abusers confidently, indeed arrogantly, rely on this belief, often aggressively inculcating (instilling) the belief ("No-one will ever believe you") just after the sexual assault when their victim is in a distressed state. Targets of bullying in the workplace often come up against the same attitudes by management when they report a bullying colleague. In a workplace environment, the bully usually recruits one or two colleagues (sometimes one is a sleeping partner - see Affairs below) who will back up the bully's denial when called to account.

Cowgirl there was nothing there! :)-->

Does anyone know where Steve Jacobs is?

Emotional abuse http://www.actabuse.com/patterns_abuse.html The serial bully (TWI) Those who can do Those who can't bully. http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm#Guru

one thing said: ... ...

I do not know what "group" put this out there. I don't think it Christian. But I do think they are valid in saying unless you "cry your pain" it will live in you forever.

So good to see you Chwester! I will look for the book at the library! Thanks

I do not know where or how I got this site but I found it interesting. On the left are different chapters to read about pain and how it gets in us, lives in us, acts in us and gets healed. I hope some of you get something from it. I did. We have discussed why we let unhealthy people in our lives, how could we end up in a cult? When we continue to "seek" are we bait for another cult? Was it our chidhood which lead us to TWI? We disscussed broken trust and damaging friends... So many topics and this site explores some of these things. It is simple to read and to navigate through. What do you think? http://www.cyquest.com/pathway/how_patterns_work.html

Happy birthday to you!!!

Diazbro and Raf Two fine posts. Goey - I say Amen to yours as well.

I love you Laleo and you write very well making your points. I love you dearly but I do not agree with your assessment of OM. To all, this is IMO For years he has defended Weirwille and I think by now we should all realize this, let him expound and take it with a grain of salt and keep talking about how a cult leading liar made people “feel”. Not just sexually, but also how they felt about their money, their time, people dying in their families or finding out they had an illness under the heartless reign of the basta*rd. Oldiesman you say has more respect for the victims then for which he is given credit. I am not going to go back through his arguments and seek exact quotes but most of the people here have read his posturing on these issues and know if I am not “exact” in what I am saying I capture the gist. Through the years he has a subtle insulting insidious way of victimizing the victim. He has in the past called Weirwille’s seductions, by misuse of the Bible, “affairs” “Slept together” “indiscretions” “adultery” All of these headings do dismiss the real evil that was perpetrated at TWI by its leaders. This is not only a simplification of what went on, it is an undercutting of the methodical web woven to get girls in the motor coach. When mentioned that women were given drinks and then felt funny or were unable to fight him off, OM then said he did not really believe it just because John Lynn brought it up or Marsha recorded it in her letter. He said something like he did not know “us” and why should he believe us? Then Val52 came on and he DOES know her. She told of how she was in the coach and how things happened. She was able to leave as was I, but her friend was back there with VP. I do not recall if she said they were offered drinks but I think she did. http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm OM still refused to budge from his position an inch to put himself into another’s shoes and allow himself to FEEL what the victims felt. Instead that is a highway he wishes not to travel. Then, Sunesis came on and spoke of the whole sexual thing. We have all told it over and over again because Om and a few others consistently come into these discussions with their insidious swipes at the victims. And here is a revelation, just because someone speaks of their victimization does not mean they are living life as a victim now. There has been sound advice from pyscologist regarding the seduction of kids who were sexually abused by other authority figures, there have been articles written on sexual seduction by other clergy. Plots came on and said they would never allow someone to do things like VP did and continue to practice from the pulpit. There have been articles presented as VP’s conduct has been criminal. All of these presentations do not dent the thick impenetrable wall OM has built in his mind about Weirwille. And I have gotten to the point where I have tried to just avoid these threads…. But when OM said “Originally posted by oldiesman: "Sometimes I think GS is like a soap opera. You know, like leaving it for months, come back, and one is exactly where they left off. Try it. Come back in 6 months and see if there's any lull in the relentless one-sided condemnation of Wierwille and twi. Must be something in the nature of man to want to perpetually crush and pulverize a dead horse” I must concur that one can return in 6 months or a year or 4 years and still there will be an impenetrable wall around OM’s concepts of Weirwille and insidious little blurbs being thrown at his victims. So, it behooves me how he can say such a thing, as a line that some how comes off that he has moved ahead and returns here after 6 months only to see everyone still stuck in their views. When after a 6 month absence he returns, not with a broader understanding or a kinder heart but with the exact same condemning views he has always had. I can only think that OM has a very limited view of rape, seduction and deceit. I wonder, being as he is blind to sexual sin, if he would be soooo blind and unyielding if perhaps he lost a trust fund to TWI. If it cost OM something. Sex and sexual abuse have a blurred line to him and he will not see it. What about the other boundaries? Does he see them? Or again, does a gun have to be place to someone’s head in order for him to be able to see a “crime?” Is the line blurred in other areas outside of TWI thinking? Does he think the “Romeo” bandits do anything wrong when they woo an old lady into thinking they are loved to drain their accounts? Again, there was no gun to the head, but does OM have the ability to see “crime” or is his mind so seared to the ability to see right and wrong that it has blinded all his judgments? I saw am interview with rapists and one of the statements made was chilling, “I want to hurt them. I do not want to terminate their lives… I want to wreck their lives. So everyday they have to live their tattered life that I was able to destroy. Then Oprah did a thing on sexual predators and she “GETS IT” it is a dance, a seduction of deceit just to use someone and throw them away. Also wrecking their lives. This is what they do. But to use GOD as a dance step in that seduction to wreck a persons’ life is a dark evil. You can look for shades of gray to excuse it, but there is no gray. It is dismissive to the victim to then call it “adultery”. The word adultery is too shallow and does not hold forth the evil that happens as a result of a sexual predator. Or to say well it was the 70’s and girls were looser then…. Perhaps some girls wore their underpants on their heads and offered their “sex” to anyone. But even THOSE girls, who sought Jesus, should have been told to put their pants back on and go home by a man representing himself as a Man of God (or greater -- THE Moggie) What kind of Bible would it have been if Jesus saw that Mary had committed adultery and was a harlot for different men and instead of offering her deliverance, he rescued her from a bad situation just to give her too much wine and force himself on her? I guess with some of the thinking I see on this thread, Jesus could "do" her and it would be okay.... And he was a Moggie! And somehow if he did "do" her it would be the woman's fault.

Zix :)--> Raf :)--> Zixette :D-->