Dot Matrix

:)

To the original Title of the thread- Yeah, TWI was great, LOL This wasn't a written policy but surely one that was taught, you've heard Ex, me, Sunesis, Valerie and others share our little pieces that draw the same picture -- now let's see what JAL said. Here is a quote off the internet: John Lynn became part of the Way in the late 60's and was also a Limb Coordinator for Washington DC in 1987 and wrote almost as many Way books as Victor Wierwille. Mr. Lynn wrote that, "Dr. Wierwille told people that without broadening their sexual activities beyond marriage, they'd "never be able to handle the things of God." A friend of mine told me Dr. Wierwille told her he thought that "a woman gets eternal rewards for blessing a man of God like this." 17 Wierwille also taught as a 'core belief' that, "Sex between married lay people and married Way Corps clergy can be a "one-time healing," rather than sinful adultery or the abuse of a care-taking relationship." 18 Yeah, I'd want my kids to be taught about Jesus by that guy! LOL Let the good times roll! He's like the dirty old Santa at the mall, looking for kids to sit on his lap. He asks them what they want and promises to deliver. Only it turns out to be wicked Uncle Ernie in the pleasent context of Santa Claus. What you see is not what ya get. http://www.seekgod.ca/roodways.htm edited for spelling

Oakspear You said "TWI was always about following men, while saying that they weren't. " WOW, I loved the truth in that!

Rascal I said "If you do not know who the inner-circle was then how would you guys know who was and was not genuinely kind?" Not directing at you, but rather to any defenders of that there was good in TWI etc. My contention is that even the KINDNESS from the LEADERSHIP was contrived. I do not think it needs to be picked through on a case by case basis. I am saying as a collective bunch of a "secret society of sin" -- the water was posioned and all water coming from the well was posioned. Or as Kit said, bitter and sweet water do not come from the same well-- there are no cases by case studies needed. You got a bad tree - you got bad or no fruit. It does not produce great apples.

Waysider I heard that but do not recall where -- maybe here Rascal - boy that was an additonal lighbulb you presented! YEah Kit, the well cannot produce both sweet and bitter water. So that which LOOKED sweet was part of the con in my opinion. For some people it is just too hard to admit we were in a cult. I see it here and have felt it myself, I try to rationalize that we weren't in a "cult" like other cults. Ours was okay in someways. But we were in a cult and even the "nice things" were presented as the bait and switch we got later on. We WERE in a cult. How awakening, humbling and embarrassing.

Hahahaha!

If you do not know who the inner-circle was then how would you guys know who was and was not genuinely kind? I think rotten fruit comes from a rotten tree. You can eat from which ever garden you choose to eat from. I am not here to change your mind. I am here to express my mind because I am sick of tiptoeing around knowing what I know because it may offend someone who loved VPW or LCM or whomever. These were some horrid people who practice horrible things and used people terribly. The ones I know in the inner-circle were mean-spirited and very harmful. If you found kindness in them -- you can believe it was genuine. This is America and we are no longer in a cult. Think what you want. I do not think they had a kind bone in their bodies. I think they were masters at being fake and using people. Jsut like any other leader in any other cult.

Kit: I love this quote]I also look forward to justice being meted out to vpw who imho made merchandise of our souls.

Sunesis Rascal Polar Sky Rider Kit Vegan Belle Thanks. We were in a cult. I think it really hit me yesterday. I found myself tip toeing around trying not to disturb the wasps and then I thought, "I don't care." I know what I know. I saw what I saw. We were in a cult. WE were in a cult. we WERE in a cult. We were in a CULT. It was bad.

BTW I do understand what you are saying. But I really do believe that the fully initiated no longer wanted kindness to work through them. They became self serving and they placed themselves above reproach. The Way International's leadership held parties where you could be "with" anyone and drink or smoke anything and it was okay. This inner circle sinned and believed that they lived above the word of God. It was described to me as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior was considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them, they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5). I do not believe kindness existed in this kind of soil. All I saw was the fruitless trees. In a mean scary forest that belonged in the bad part of the Wizard of Oz. I know people that got prayed for and healed by an inner circle -- I believe that was God's love despite the TWI leader. Heck, I LOVED a an early corps couple and thought them to be my dear friends. Loved them. I was probably a yes-man at that time. Anything they taught I gobbled it as I wanted GOD!!! Now, some how God did love me in that storm. Later I found out that this same man I adored had hit on EX when she was 18. And he went to the wild parties. And all the "keep it in your pants" exhortations were bullsh!t. The "lead by example" was a joke. As I got closer to these people they WOULD laugh at the little stary eyed believer. All I saw was lies, hypocrasy and FAKE FAKE FAKE crap. As the one FEMALE Reverend lay in bed with a guy she picked up at a bar the night before. She told him she was a reverend. Then laughed and laughed about it. This guy looked so confused. He was picked up by a drunk woman who bopped his lights out, then talked about how whe was a leader in a God group. Sickening. It was all a joke to the REAL inner-circle. I was a joke, most of us were jokes. The joke was on us and to them the joke was us. We would try to love people with the love of Christ and they would be laughing at our efforts. If one did not SEE it, it was hard to believe it was happening. But it was. We were in a cult. Not a group that went bad. We were in a cult just like Koresh, Jim Jones or that weirdo in California who went to find the mother ship. In some weird way many of us still think we are BETTER than they are/were. That is what keeps us trying to justify things. "I wasn't that stupid." "I saw great things and had great times." (if they were with the inner circle they were fabricated) Because if we ever really see that we were in a full-on cult we have to re-exam everything... Even the good-times. And that hurts like he!l. IMO

Temple You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. Just as you do with me. Were you ever invited to a drinking party, a sex party with no rules, watch a leader reem someone for missing a meeting then KNOW he just balled your corps sister and lied to all the believers to do so? On an on... Nothing will convince me otherwise, but as I said you can think whatever you want to think. That is the beauty of having left I can finally SAY what I say , and think what I want. And so can you. Peace. Thanks for your view point.

Kit I am not speaking of true kindness. Yes, actions speak louder than words. All: I mean well, if someone here says they were sexually abused by the Vickster. And it becomes part of the conversations. Then, someone comes on and says, "VP took me on a ride on his motor cycle -- I never saw him do anything mean so I do not believes it. Well, along with the lies. The so "called" acts of kindness I believe were part of the picture of deceit. I will eat cereal with a smiling face telling me it is healthy even though it is NOT healthy. Because the lie is presented with certain stage props. I think a lot of the corrupt people showed "kindness" to get what they wanted. As a Con tells a lonely older woman she is beautiful -- he knows she has not heard it in a while. This act is to use her. To SEE real kindness would be godly. So, perhaps more defined, where the things we saw and heard paraded as "kindness" when they were ploys. The 4th corps woman I cannot stomach -- well, she had someone come over to ask for help/direction. She cried with them. This endeared her to them. When they left she said she did not feel anything at all and could care less. She said the "holy spirit" gave her the tears when she needed them. Then, she began to speak badly about the person. It was all-fake. Fake. Fake Fake. Like when Harry met Sally -- the fake orgasm -- that fake. I will FAKE caring so I get what I want -- your respect and you to follow me. I think a lot of what people hold on to is not even real. Now, was I nice to people - yes and some were nice to me. But the inner circle, the elite, the trusted ones, the initiated -- they were schooled in FAKE. Fake caring. Fake leadership. FAKE examples. Gee, how about a BIG leader with a recognizable name? Some people on here still think he walks on water, can you say cocaine addict? Guess where you abundant sharing went? Up his nose as he taught you how to stand. As he prayed for you and passed the horn of plenty. He even reprooved you and made you feel badly when you questioned him.... Fake. So, when a person says, "Gee, he took me into his recreation room and stuck his hand under my dress when I was 18." (Which happened to my WOW sister, via him) The deceived responds, "He was always nice to me. He seemed like a great example. Do you have proof? Did he hold a gun to your head? HE seemed great to me, he once gave me $5.00 when I was out of gas." Gee, part of the con. OR when someone gets on here and claims their impressive record because they have a handful of recognizable names once told that person they were a great believer. When the list of leaders given have a legacy of FAKE. All that prooves to me is, boy where they deceived or they would not be dropping that name. I think that the so-called "kindness" was nothing but part of the window dressing. Then, once that leader/leaders were followed "we" were sized up. Can we let this one into the inner circle? OR should we just placate them and create a "yes man." The circle of "yes men" really just padded the safety of the inner circle. If lowly "leaves" (regular believers) come around the great leaders, well who better to insulate them then people who think they are great. Then, the next layer is those that were initiated. Blowing weed with a leader, sleeping with them, sharing them... Getting drunk. Renting a room to bang one while they tell the believers who drove 14 hours there was something heavy and spiritual they had to take care of. But if you didn't show up at the meeting you were a terrible believer and lucky the devil didn't splatter your head on the hiway! The yes men didn't know. They were so happy to be able to drop names that made THEM feel special… The “leaves” (regular believers) were kept from knowing due to the layers. But the ones they tried to initiate -- we knew. We fought back and were killed in battle -- killed to keep the secrets. KILLED Then, some of the initiated actually ENJOYED it. They were privileged to get on bended knee and service HOW@RD, then thought it an honor to go service another when How@rd was done. They are known in regular life as wh@res, call girls or sluts. In TWI they were called "Reverend" Those who enjoyed it became recruiters and would bring more sheep (leaves) to the King of crap to see if they could get initiated. Now, I do hold THEM responsible. And yet, some who knew them, were related to them or WERE them (recruiters) get on here and act as though the women who say they were abused are lying because THEY liked it so much. Or the relatives cannot fathom anyone not liking it because after all, their cousin was excited about being chosen. Others, who only saw their smiling leader pass the horn of plenty, want to see the blue dress to believe they have been deceived. Yet, the guy was snorting your money. I think all of the so-called acts of kindness were just paint to hide the truth of what they really intended to do. So if a "yes man" was nice to you, he was probably trying to be kind. If a regular believer was kind it was kindness, IMO. But if the initiated ones were smiling at you, you better believe they were sizing you up to figure out how to use you. IMO

So what the what? I mean they said "keep it in your pants" Then, as married men went through the corps like Heidi Fleich's black book

I am SICK of people bringing up the "good times" each time a poster wants to talk about the personal destruction they had. If you want a "good time thread" then start one. But to hinder people from talking about TRUE/REAL things that happened to them -- because they didn't happen to you is idiotic and mean. Okay, I am finished with the venting... Now I ask you was the kindness part of the Con? Afterall, I was taught by the king of crap that a counterfiet is CLOSE to the genuine. If it was plainly bad to the naked eye then it would be BAD verses GOOD and of course most people will choose GOOD over Bad. But when it is achoice between Good and BEST we get tricked.... Oh my, in his own words... So, I had some good times. Met some nice people. I would have met nice people in life anyway. And God orchestrates salvation so I would have been born-again. Afterall, I was called before the foundations. So, did I get tricked on my way to BEST by the deception of the way? Was the kindness, some people cling to, part of the con? Examples: Conned by Kindness Did you ever see those interviews with the parents of a killer? “He was such a good boy!” Or when they interview a woman who was conned out of her life’s savings by a con man. “I loved him. He was so good to me and promised me things (marriage, love, a new house, business – whatever.) How about Ted Bundy: described as being “Bundy is believed to have been a sociopath. He is usually described as an educated, handsome and charming young man despite the brutality of his crimes” whole article : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy Real estate con “At the closing Sullivan was charming and self-effacing, recalls Bridget.” http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/for...sion=2006110407 On line predator “He made me feel good about myself. And like, wow, this guy can like lift me up on like my darkest days or something. And then him like talking to you like that makes you feel like you've known him for like ever.” http://www.amw.com/features/feature_story_detail.cfm?id=1102 Raped by her Father: She remembers good times “Growing up, Ingrid lived a happy life - traveling all over South America and the Caribbean with her father and older brothers.” http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=41311 Cult leader http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh Whitey B^lger “As a result, he was known as a Robin Hood figure in the community, stealing from the criminals and giving back to the residents of his neighborhood. The real man: http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=23567

I dig it!

Happy Birthday! 29th isn't it?

Okay folks, I leave this thread with this: Dove: You truly did stand up for the Word of God and that was no easy task. And although you are not seeking a pat on the back, I am giving you a cyber METAL of honor for being someone perhaps we all wish we could have been. But in this thread, even though you are saying some truthful things. Things that most of us aspire to -- I wonder if your main goal is to fight with Rascal. Are you writing your posts with the love of God or some anger you have towards her personally? I don't know. As I read your stuff here, I want to say, "Adda Boy! someone out there gave it back to TWI in the form of it is written!" At the same time, I am not seeing LOVE in your posts some rather a "get her" tone. And as long as we are standing up for the Word, well that is not right. And if your whole premise here is we all could stand up for what is right. We all could have said NO to wrong and spoken up for the word, then I do so now. I love you Dove. But With the exception of your last heat felt post through this thread I think this has been forgotten: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. I corinthians 13 I maybe wrong, but this is how it reads through the screen IMO edit for spelling

Dove- Look I'm sorry but... Look it seems you are strong "in the word" and you seem to be more of a warrior and understand where you are with God. But I am sure you have an Achilles heel. Ya know, I cannot imagine anyone taking their pants off for someone they did not want to take their pants off for. I cannot imagine doing other things from bended knee to someone I did not love, but who shamed me into feeling like God wanted me to do it. I SAID NO! I never have. I fought it like a pitbull. Just like you speak in your post. I am not going to be "self righteous" to those who were crippled in that area. If someone says, "I was pushed into doing something awful that makes me sick." I can say, "You always had a choice how could you be so weak? How could you not speak up and say no or speak the Words of the word?" I COULD say that because I refused to SERVICE him. And I did go back armed with the Word of God and reproved VPW. It did no good for him, but it was great for my insides. However, we all have areas where we are not strong. I know someone who was sexually abused by two family members as a child. Helpless and hopeless she was used as a tool for these men to ejaculate. Like a living Apparatus they could have bought at a porn shop. The emotional damage and diminished self-esteem is almost irrepairable (except by God). And for me to say to a person such as that -- "Why didn't you take a stand? Why didn't you say no? He did not hold a gun to your head? You had a choice!" Well, my dove, it is simply mean and uncompassionate. And many people did not see VPW naked or have him try to get them in the sack, but because he met with more women clothed than he did naked, does it mean he really was okay and we should not bring up those experiences? Cause that is kind of what it seems as though you are doing and saying about the Child abuse in Rome City. I do not think Rascal is attacking you. I think she is just trying to vent some of the horror she experienced and it seems you keep shutting her right to vent down -- with scripture and an example of your strength. I think she needs to talk about what happened so she can figure things out. I see your guts, I see your stand in all of this. Is it possible to show your gushy little underbelly of compassion for a minute and just let these people talk about what happened to them? I try to do that with the sex stuff. I do not know all that makes people into who they are but I consider myself blessed that I had strength in the area of the sex crap and that I could look at VPW and leave. However, the same situation to an emotionally fragile person trying to find God’s love, might just crack them into dust right there on the floor of the motor coach. I can’t judge them because I was strong—or in a way that makes me into a self-righteous weakling. Trying to feel good because I was able to stand and they were not. It comes across like rubbing their nose in their failure. I think people can learn from your strength, I know I can and admire how you stood. But somehow in this thread it is coming across a bit cocky rather than compassionate. Sorry Dove. It may not be what you mean. You may be trying to show people they can fight back. But it is coming across a bit mean. Love ya, but geez

Anyone recall that ROA where the horny Doctor told the WOW's to keep it in their pants? He probably said that then walked back stage and polished off a piece of untouched carpet, the pig. What a bunch of crap.

See the word FORCE is what people were having a problem with IMO. IF someone told you to beat your kid into submission or you would not be doing the will of the Lord -- -- they will be a tool of the devil... in whatever words.... You could have said, "You people are nuts. I will not do that." And left. OR chapter and verse? The problem is people BELIEVED they were helping to keep their children from becoming possessed by beating them or odd extreme punishment and soul crushing judgement. They believed it because they were conditioned by fear to FOLLOW the leader. The point I see you making is you felt like you could NOT leave the ministry and still have God's love. So, to keep God's love and protection you obeyed leaders -- who should NOT have been obeyed-- So, you felt forced --if you wanted to STAY. But others are saying why didn't you speak up or leave? I think that is a question that haunts many of us in whatever area we BENT our morals and ethics in order to stay. I can see why now looking into the adult faces of the children of the Way might be very hard. To try to explain that the fear of loosing God was greater than your fear of hurting them is difficult to reconcile. I know I pretty much cut off my family when I was ion TWI. Missed my father's birthdays, retirement party, reunions etc. Because I was a WOW or in rez. or whatever and that was so much more important. I could have just said, "I am going." But then I would not have been able to remain in the Corps or a WOW. So, in order to keep my commitment to God (he that vows a vow) I missed my family for 16 years. Nobody held a gun to my head, but I was forced to meet those requirements if I wanted to stay in the programs. Groucho: Amen!

the Moynih@ns were two of the biggest azzes I ever met. Their leadership made my stay at Rome City a horrible unloving nightmare. Belle - did they adopt her anyway? What an unloving twosome. Can you see Jesus saying "turn your back on this little one for she is not worthy of my love?" What would Jesus do? Well, if that was a WAY family then maybe the little girl lucked out by not being subject to the the Moynih@ns as spiritual leaders

I was quoting Bagpipes They were good scriptures to bring up. Thanks Pipes!

Pipes said: Note that this first one is addressed to the followers. "...O my people, your leaders cause you to err, and they confuse (destroy & swallow up) the course of your paths." Is. 3:12b "The Lord enters into judgment with the elders of His people and their princes: For (by your exactions and oppressions you have robbed the people and ruined the country) you have devoured the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people and grinding the faces of the poor? says the Lord God of hosts." Is. 3:14 , 15 "For they who lead this people cause them to err, and they who are led (astray) by them are swallowed up (destroyed)." Is. 9:16 "Woe to those (judges) who issue unrighteous decress, and to the magistrates who keep causing unjust & oppressive decisions to be recorded. To turn aside the needy from justice & to make plunder of the rightful claims of the poor of my people.." Is. 10:1, 2a I was looking for those scriptures as I believe they apply here. Thanks

Jon her second post clearly takes out the "we" that always bugs you, so I guess she has heard your voice through your posts. Here it is: "I shouldn`t have said *we* allowed.... There were many who were couragious enough to stand up for yourselves and your families against leadership. Some of you already knew God intimately enough to know that he would never ever require that of us. Some of you behaved with honor in spite of what we were taught. I admire all of you who stood up for principle, consequences be damned."

When I was in Rome City my experience sucked. We had a corps guy sick as he11. And the LEADER announced that if you were too sick to come to meetings/classes you were too sick to eat. So, this guy was in bed for three days. He was not given juice TLC, soup anything. Now that policy was probably not the experience of many. But it was what he and I lived through. I went into the kitchen and took fruit then snuck it up to him. I called Mrs. VPW and she sent a car over to get him and took him into her home to nurse him. Turns out he was VERY ill. The point being, in the early days this probably would be an event nobody would ever see as possibly happening. I believe Dove's posts about what he was able to do. I believe Cathy's and the mini corps. Can't we see that it just waxed worse and worse?