Dot Matrix

Mark- I read your post and I LOVED IT! This was/is great! So clear and powerfully written! I love it for many reasons. Years ago when a younger teen I was asking God how to find him. My girlfriend Chris and I met this guy and went back to her house and we were all talking about our need to find God... Well, the room got lighter and this GUY began to make little crosses down his chest. He then told us in a prophetic kind of weird posture -- that Chris and I were arc angels and were reincarnated. There was nothing that we could do wrong. Everything we did would be blessed by God and would be right. Later, the weird prophesy stuff told Joe G and Rich that they were reincarnated Peter and Paul. During the prophecy it was also stated that Jesus Christ had failed and that the daughter of God would be coming. And the four points of the cross (that people do when they cross themselves) stood for the father, the son, the Holy Ghost and the daughter of God. We were told we were pretty much called by god and infallible. Well, this is what led Joe and I to investigate the actual Bible. We found that we had heard a devil prophesy via this guy (Mike) and God delivered us from the deceiving web of BS that had been laid for us. Interesting that this guy you speak of Hamon was told he would be like gods (I cannot find that in your post now) which is like he was "above" the rest. Just like I was told in a devil prophecy that I could do no wrong. The devil prophecy either puffs up or it tears down it is never "right." Reminds me of the verse Gen. 3:5 ….and ye shall be as gods…. What a lure to eat of the fruit in the garden. I am sure my devil prophesy, I heard all those years ago, was roaring with error as we did not know much. The one you quoted has been tailored to someone who knows a little Bible, but like many men/women want to be exalted. Or the same lure held forth to the builders of Babel, or how about here in Isaiah Isaiah 14:12-15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Anyway – GREAT post Mark

This makes me so sad. A woman today said there was a big adoption push this past weekend. And almost nobody showed up. These poor pets. It rips at the soul.

I have a question. Where in the Bible did people sit around and talk about dreams all the time and use their pop psychology errrr revelation, to hack away at God’s people? I am sure many of us have had dreams where God spoke to us… I have had God speak to me in dreams. I truly have, here is an example http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=839 I had a dream about Joe and then God said was if I wanted to contact him I needed to do it quickly. So, I did. But it was a clean dream no spiders or coffins or anything. God showed me to get in contact so I did, he did not have to tell me it was because he would soon fall asleep in Christ. Just different then the Karen Ann stuff. Seems like her dreams are "attacking" and cause the "destroy" part of the steal, kill and destroy stuff we are to recognize as the devil's ministry However, was Elizabeth as big of a problem as the "dreams" said she was? Or did this constant hacking away at her by these werid dreams cause the problems? I would hate to think that JAL allowed this dream weaver to destroy how he felt and acted toward his wife. I mean, was she a problem? Some of the following stuff is contrived. Sounds similar to what KAG is doing. http://www.cwgministries.org/Principles-of...tion.htm#Method Dream # 1 I had a new job as caretaker of a house. I was in the house going up a flight of stairs and I was riding a horse. At the top of the stairs I entered the bathroom and took out some cleaning supplies. Interpretation Question: "In what way do I have a new job?" Answer: "Just today, I have begun to hear God's voice, see vision and journal." Question: "In what way do I feel like a horse on the stairwell?" Answer: "I feel extremely awkward tuning to the flow of God's Spirit, seeing vision, and journaling. This way of living is an art I will need to practice until I become comfortable with it. Right now, I feel like a 'bull in the china closet.'" Question: "In what way will this path take me up a flight of stairs?" Answer: "Hearing God's voice, seeing God's vision, and recording them will take me to a higher place in my walk with God." Question: "In what way will I be getting out some cleaning supplies?" Answer: "Hearing God's voice will clean up some areas of my life." I mean this krap is just forced. Like the automatic hand writing (snicker) of the personal prophesy. Everyone likes to hear about themselves that is why astrology is so popular. This to me, was just as weird and removed from the Bible as perhaps the "signs" are....

I recall JAL talking to me about writing down prophecy that God gives you personally when you are alone. It sounded odd to me. Then a bit like automatic hand writing. After reading those notes it is laughable. Which corps was Karen in? I think I have her confused with some gal in my corps. Isn't JAL ....ed everyone is pulling his wife apart? What the hey?

Coolwaters: Did you see this - Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein, (attributed) US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955) Again, here is the defintion of insanity Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein Pretty Cool you should bring that up! Sorry Dooj I only read the early posts, didn't see yours

I may just be having problems as I can never tell when I read something if it is suppose to have a capital H or small. Then there is the whole Large S - small s thing to contend with. Then, I keep seeing greek words written above the English so it gets confusing. Then again I have forgotten more than I have ever known -- or something...

Wow Groucho I could not have said it better! I totally agree with you.

Waysider Thanks for your post. The way I saw it was Oldies defended TWI WW then responded Then it was suggested to let God sort things out. It looks to me like WW was sorting things out and that was a way of getting him to back off which looked "nice" but was actually BS. Looked like a nice sweet acceptable response to get WW to stop stating the truth as he knows it. Perhaps I am wrong. But that is how I read it, thus my response and defense of Wordwolf

Do you have any idea how robotic you sound? It is almost frightening. Here is the thing, if you are here "to face the evil to come" then I must say your responses have helped me to see the evil that is. I am sorry that you are blind, young and easily taken over by evil doctrines. Perhaps, if you get away and get out in life and ask GOD to help you, you may see how pure his love is and how tainted the stuff you have been calling "love" has been. I will pray for your deliverance for the God you seek is not in the organization presenting him.

I dunno a 7 and a 9….. The choices maybe too limited or just worded too nicely for me to pick. I think this is my 11th catagory: VPW was a severe sexual deviant: Not caring whom he forced himself on or sadistically seduced. Not caring about the AGE of the girl or his relationship – be it father in the word or a closer relationship I believe he somehow took his driving force of sexual deviance and covered it up with a ministry. (Like boyscout leaders, priests, child psychologists etc. who say all the right things then turn out to be deviants. They have insulated them with LAYERS of “looking good” to hide their FLAMING iniquities.) I believe he could not research himself out of a paper bag. So, he had to USE/STEAL other men’s research and claim it as his own – incl. what VPW states God told him about teaching the word to others. Then there is the fabricated SNOW scene. I believe he founded the corps to pass along his sick and twisted perversions to those he could bring into the “inner circle” I believe that America’s youth, at the time, (later other countries) was seeking a revolution and were open to something different then their parents or other established organizations offered. TWI seemed to offer it all. The smiley face painted atop the sewer lid. I believe some of the things he said DID work. But he did not necessarily believe or incorporate them in his own life. They were the leaves over the bear trap. I believe he was a GREAT man in that he was one of the greatest psychopaths – sociopath – narcissists to manipulate a large group of people that ever lived. ( I repeat, ONE of the…) I believe he could quote scripture much like the devil himself did to Jesus when he tried to tempt him. I believe VPW did not care who he destroyed as long as his NEEDS were met. And he had to create a band of followers who were willing to do that. He was just as sick as any other cult leader and his congregation is just as wounded – many still trying to validate him. Still picking through the evil to speak of the “good.” And even when the good has been proven to be from other resources – they validate that by saying the word of God is free to all. Yes, and I can quote the same verse as you and we are not plagiarizing anything… But if you say God spoke to you and said certain words and I claim them as my own then we have a problem. If I tell you to “keep it in your pants” then call you on the motor coach and I am naked and ….. well we have hypocrisy. Actions speak LOUDER than words.. In a country which is willing to fry Dan Quail on a misspelled word, or Gary Hart for checking out A woman other than his wife, we have those that vindicate VPW. Go figure. Editing to add: But back to the thread, I am not looking for anyone to agree with me or fight. Just answering the thread with the 7 and 9 but adding my real feelings as I feel them IMO

((((Belle)))) Onion Eater - dang, that was a lot to deal with!

Happy Happy Birthday!

Such tender stories and well wishes. It is just really shocking. Three years ago my husband lost his Father and Grandmother in the same week, Two uncles a couple months later, An Aunt after that. I think it was something like 8 family members in a year. It changed everything. Christmas is different. I still go shopping and think about them as I leave the "would have been the perfect gift" on the shelf. It is such a sad thing death. I hope we truly do see them again. I choose to believe that

Why doesn't ckmkeon go and hang out with the loosers still in TWI? Why is he here?

It has been spread out over a longer period, but it is hard to deal with. With my latest friend June -- well she was friends with Gary and Michael -- so it is like a little corner of (my) life is going out. Several of these folks just turned 50. I wonder if it is the "fun" we had in the 60's/70's that shaved off the years. Thanks for your heart. And keep my sister in your prayers, she goes in for a biopsy on Monday. She is in her late 40's. Chas Three funerals in a week ---OUCH! that was an awful week. ((((CHAS))))

I guess I am at that age. First Joe Guarini, then a guy a few weeks later I was friends with -- Gary. Then, Michael. Then Jimmy D. I just found out another friend of mine has cancer. (Pray for her, June) This is so hard to let go of the people you love. Are your friends dying?

Thanks to PAW!!!

T-bone said "“You shall not commit adultery – but as for me and my motor coach – I’m exempt.”" I am ROTFL As far as let God sort it out? So, we are not to think? We are to accept the good the bad and the ugly as the same thing -- it's all good because some where down the line GOD will sort it all out. I am sorry but MY GOD gave me a brain. He tells us to test the spirits He tells us to be a fruit inspector That does not sound like a God who wants us to think its all good and let God sort it out later. To me that is a lazy person's way out. Gee, I didn't know that was going to hurt someone -- I figured God would sort it all out. We gotta a chapter and verse on this? OR a Wierwillism that makes it all up to GOD to sort out? I think Word Wolf is using his great thinking brain to decide when he has been tricked and when he hasn't, I don't see an escape valve here "let God sort it all out." Which would stop, prevent or hinder him from using his BRAIN. God gave us/him the ability to think. HE gave us senses to smell a rat. He gave us logic to recognize a lie and he gave us GUTS to speak up about it. You go Word Wolf!

Oh boy did you say it right! Renew our minds to what? To do what other people wanted?

Pinklady: You go girl! Let us know how it goes if you feel like it! I am proud of your guts!!!!

Morey You rock too! Groucho- Here are a few things I found on the net. Yeah, brutal honesty ruffles people-- but here is some more of it -- I do not give a sh!t. Those of us who know - know. No sugar coatings. Just crap! Anyway, here look at this -- sweet group they were, huh? According to Karl Kahler, stockpiling supplies and weapons training were indeed a part of Way training. "....In the mid-1970s [Wierwille] he predicted that a communist takeover of America was imminent, and he had all the believers stockpile bags of dried foods and other essentials in preparation for "going underground." When the invasion didn’t happen, he claimed the prayer and believing of The Way had saved the nation from apocalypse. Still, just to be safe, he initiated weapons training for all the Way Corps, and stockpiled assault weapons in secret armories around the country..." 21 "....Around 1972 The Way built an unremarkable two-story structure near the Wierwille barn known as the Executive Office Building, or EOB.... Underneath the EOB, said Duncan, is a bomb-proof bunker built to house the gold and silver, plus "all kinds of survival equipment, armaments you wouldn’t believe, Uzis, various kinds of shotguns, long-range rifles, grenade launchers, plastic explosives, a lot of explosives." He said some $23,000 worth of weapons were stored there. " 22 "...The stockpiling of survival kits was to continue, preferably with a year’s supply of non-perishable food, with ropes and mountain-climbing gear, with weapons and ammunition. ...Starting in either 1976 or 1977, every member of the Corps at Emporia was taken to the local National Guard armory and given a class in marksmanship and weapons safety...A Kansas National Guard official told reporters: "It was much like the military. They used .22-caliber rifles, and bulls-eye targets at 50 feet ...Rev. Allen Denton, told U.S. News & World Report, "What I saw was not a hunters’ safety program, (for which) you don’t need to know how to hit a bullseye from three different positions — prone, sitting and standing."18..." 23 "...the ministry finally told reporters around 1979 that it was discontinuing its "hunter safety course"...Stories circulated that secret weapons training continued, but they were never confirmed. A few stories circulated that The Way had stockpiles of weapons, but they were never confirmed either...." 24 Karl later relates the eyewitness testimony of Tony Martin, who was called in to instruct the weapons and military training. He related information about training about kill zones, triangulation and target practice with "guns [that] had been converted to fully automatic and silenced. They fired at human silhouettes from four positions: standing, kneeling, prone and from the hip..." 25 From the Excultworld website, in an online interview Denver police officer, Mark Roggeman stated, "...Wierwille had claimed he attended several colleges where he received his Biblical and Greek education. I showed her letters, which I still have from the places that he claimed he went to school. Two separate letters stated that he was never there. Moody Bible Institute is one for instance." "....The other thing I did was go up several times during the years to Camp Gunnison which was connected with The Way International, I spent time with the police there we took a drive down the river by the camp. A friend of mine who was at one time a Denver Police Officer was elected Sheriff of Gunnison County. He called me some years back to inform me that the local gun dealer had told them that they had purchased five hundred AR15 semi-automatic versions of the AR16. ...Why would a Bible based group want weapons?..." 26 John Lynn became part of the Way in the late 60's and was also a Limb Coordinator for Washington DC in 1987 and wrote almost as many Way books as Victor Wierwille. Mr. Lynn wrote that, "Dr. Wierwille told people that without broadening their sexual activities beyond marriage, they'd "never be able to handle the things of God." A friend of mine told me Dr. Wierwille told her he thought that "a woman gets eternal rewards for blessing a man of God like this." 17 Wierwille also taught as a 'core belief' that, "Sex between married lay people and married Way Corps clergy can be a "one-time healing," rather than sinful adultery or the abuse of a care-taking relationship." 18

Groucho- I agree! What the Hey- ROTFL

Evan LOL!

Yeah, he probably said it every year Tom. While his Mouseketeer was dancing around- Looks like everyone here was exhorted to keep it in their pants.... Except for that quater between the knees thing.