Dot Matrix

Happy Belated Birthday

Thank you

BTW My friend's wife left him today. I do not think he needs to feel bad..... Just thought I would mention it...

Lisa: I am so sorry that a mean-spirited person had the unmitigated gaul to say that to you. What a horrific example of heartless bull crap that Jesus would have had no part of... (The opposite of What would Jesus do....) The Lord, and we if we (TWI) had actually represented him, should have held you close and let you share, then, gotten you some help -- someone with whom you could unload the horror of this event and heal. I am so sorry you were forced to do the things he did to you, then forced to accept BLAME for it, all in the loving package of the love of God in the family of God ---- don't cha know... Heck, an atheist drunk would have shown more love than what you got. I am so sorry for the pain and the loneliness of having to bury that event as if it were a secret for which you needed to bear the shame. Your story makes me sick, sick that people treated each other like this in the name of God. Honey, we got a few nuts that still hang around here, they may get on here and minimize what happened and defend TWI -- please do not stuff this down into your core, accept any more pain, or disappear... We know they are nuts... You just take time to heal and ignore any idiots who may post in support of that horrible ministry. Yes, I was happy at times BEFORE I found out what I know now and the evil I experienced... Back when God was working in our fellowship, before HQS sent the corrupt (some) corps to our area to kill the joy in us with religion and crap…

(((Lucy)))

Catcup No sheet, that is horrible. That poor man, John Nave. He must have been just scrambled internally after the accident, then hearing that crap.... John if you are out there - I am so sorry this happened to you. You should have been supported "by the church" not have them pour water on a drowning man... Dear John my heart goes out to you.... This was NOT your fault. I am so sorry....

Lucy, sweet Lucy: If only I had a time machine to go back to when you were a kid – get you out of the closet and “kidnap” you to a land where things were normal! (you know what I mean, some religious stiff with a stick in their hinny will capitalize on the fact I used the word normal or kidnapping or both of them in the same sentence -- relgious people -- gotta laugh ) My sweet Lucy, there were pedophiles that apparently Shift did not know of, and the biggest one I know of was VP himself. He spoke openly about the abuses he had within his own family and tried to push it off as acceptable. Exxie and I were in a meeting where he taught us all about it while we were in the Way corps. But when we have tried to speak of it, hoping it would help people such as yourself, we have been shot down as it may hurt some of his relatives. I feel his relatives need to be validated, much as you need to be to be delivered… So, I am being candid but careful in my wording so as to escape the fate of being DELETED. But because some here, never heard that teaching, never KNEW him personally, or if they did never experienced VP trying to have sex with young girls – or young woman --- because in their sphere as personal knowledge “it never happened,” then they feel it just plain "never happened to anyone". Their thinking is limited and harmful to people such as yourself, who is seeking the truth. Dear Lucy, it was a perverted cult where much harm was done. The things that lured us were in the PFAL class, which is nearly a carbon copy of the class BG Leonard authored, including prophesy given to BG that VP claimed was given to him. So, God worked in a crap storm and let his words given to a “man of God,” stolen by (IMO) a charlatan, somehow continue to heal people. This created the round and round circular thinking that caught most us… How can I get healed from a class given by VP if he is such a bad guy? Most of the threads then spin from that, in either defense of him, total denial of his sexual perversion, in saying he is dead and cannot defend himself, or those of us who speak up are liars, etc. etc. Some of us realize it is time to get off the merry-go-round and call VP what he truly was… A perverted sexual predator who stole the class of a Good man – then used it to build his empire (TWI) on the blood and guts of the saints. They will try and eat me for posting this, do not worry about me, I can handle it and am used to it. But, until you get some strength from the truth and deliverance from our God, hang in there and do not let the “crazies,” the “still confused,” the “apologists,” or the ones who “simply do not know” hurt you. You saw what you saw, you were hurt and it is time to heal.

Alfakat Yes, that IS the Del I knew... Confused like the rest of us.... Hurt he sought Christ..... Fell into some VP traps..... Got messed up accordingly .... on and on it goes....

Good post Bow IMO It is like the verse that tells us to obey our parents in the Lord.... Well, what about that group right now with the kids being passed to old men and relatives--- they claim to be "in the lord" Seems to me that are pedaphiles --- so does one vow a vow to do the word of God then STAY there once they realize God is not in that group? I think using your brain is expected by God. Using your "heart" perhaps a requirement to understand the Bible. Just sticking to something which maybe harmful would not be the will of the Lord... IMO Then, of course, it begs the question WHO SAYS IT IS HARMFUL? The government? Thank God they are suppose to stay seperate. The leaders? What if it is a group that is sour? Seems to me we are all responsible for a journey with God. Sometimes you can go to a person of the Lord and seek advice, but some people are NOT of the Lord who claim to be... Where does that leave us? Responsible for our journey with God.... IMO

Once again, it is NOT an influence. BTW, he divorced me - I fought FOR the marriage. Again, I am speaking in general terms - if anyone chooses to bring up THEIR life then please do. I brought up my friend, as the LAST time people were talking about me and my situation, and I wasn't. I am talking about vows and if they can be broken. Even if not just my ONE friend.... all people everywhere stuck in misery because the respect a "vow" made even though it was a bad promise -- do not have to stay in the situation IMO Thank you for your input and opinion about my situation, and about my ability to offer advice and about my broken vows---- I guess I should never ask a question or bring up a topic again as it seems to go back to specific things about me --- the likes of which I did not bring up. But thanks for keeping right in front of my face.... Would you stay with a murderer or does that depend? Or in your clear-cut grasp of scripture would you assume there was no way out? I feel MY God is a loving God and does NOT want anyone in a BAD or dangerous situation -- so it would depend. I feel my God would not expect my friend to stay in a sexless marriage being as the Bible is clear about not holding back to your spouse -- BTW, my friend is male. I believe God does not want anyone to stay unevenly yoked to an alcoholic who frivolously spends all the bill money on booze and beats his wife... So, rather than attempt to go through every reason one should leave, or reasons not bad enough, - so one should stay - I said "It depends" I think most people can figure it out for themselves. I am TRULY sorry you were hurt and DEEMED the bad guy. It sounds like you got the raw end of the deal. It sounds like creepy people ruined your marriage. SO, IN YOUR CASE, then you can think the vows should have been kept. I do not think marriage is entered into lightly and I do think God hates divorce --- but again.... Independent of my personal situation Independent of your personal situation Independent of my friend's personal situation In general, I do not think anyone should HAVE to keep all promises when the circumstances change --- not all vows need to be kept always. EXCEPT the command to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself. I was in the Way corps. I told the world I would never leave. Well, that which I committed myself to was no longer about serving GOD - so I left. I do not think I should have stayed.... A friend of mines' mom was beaten to a pulp almost daily. What was her vow to do? Live a life in danger, in upheaval and harm? My God would not do that or have expected her to stay. It depends... Supposing most people reading are not having a cult or off-shoot cult make their decisions for them any more, it depends. For those STILL in the cult YOU can get out – even if you swore you would never leave—you can break that promise. You can get out. It depends...

I knew Del He was not a saint, to be admired or set up as an example of goodness-- the Del I know... But maybe he was just another guy looking for Jesus who got seduced by the VIP... VIP pulled all of us into his web to some degree or another -- some are still in it. Maybe when Del shared that he had come to his senses, I certainly hope so... But it is an excellent point Simon made. Exxie I have no reason NOT to trust Karl I have spoken with him several times and have a friend who knew him well, I see no reason to think he would change the facts... Seemed like a decent guy from the little I spoke with him..

Jeff- Then, your case would be an it depends - it seems as though your wife's vow or committment to TWI was bigger than her vow to you -- most unfortunate Jest - I hear you loud and clear. What a waste of a life to be abused forever - and never know what it is like to be loved and cherished

Garth I UNDERSTAND more than you will ever know, about what you are saying and responsibility. MORE THAN YOU WILL EVER KNOW

So, is being a sociopath a genetic/fetal abnormality or a learned deficit? I don't know For a sane mind to grasp insanity is always difficult for we have to take concepts we do not think or feel and explain them. Maybe they are born lacking ability or perhaps it is in early development or perhaps a cold rotten choice not to care about others. I wonder if the professionals even REALLY know. The explanation I choose to believe is they are not able because in my sane mind, trying to understand how people can be SO cold and rotten, it is easier for me to understand missing a screw than intentionally choosing not to put it in its proper place. But regardless of how they GET there -- the signs make me ambivalent. They are VERY charming, can be generous etc. The illness is in the motive. So, it is easy to be sucked in cause when you do not know the motive all you can study is the actions... So a gregarious person gives you a compliment, they mean it!!! A sociopath gives you a compliment to merely get something... Can look the same on the surface, so I can see how people get tricked.

http://tearsandhealing.com/sociopath3.htm

Without Empathy: http://withoutempathy.blogspot.com/2006/01...e-among-us.html .....

They cannot stand each other and in 29 years they only had sex half a dozen times... They are miserable. IF they want out, I do not think they should stay together bcause they made a promise to each other --- of which the core is empy and missing. The point is in more general terms - where I wanted to keep this so it applies where it applies to whomever it applies --- bad vows, before God, do not have to be kept in order for God to love you

I read "people of the lie" years ago -- it was awesome And the interview, Seth, is awsome if you click on the link it is packed with GREAT info I could only highlight here. I have seen the qualities of the sociopath in middle and top management

Pond, I assume you are yelling at me You said: I do not SEE where anyone said the enemy is US. And just because YOU think as an adult YOU know who the crazies are -- may I remind you you were also in a cult with cult insanity at its core. So, I guess you may have spent a little time away from the Blue Book and read up on sociopaths -- that research could have spared you. I actually had been studying as a psychiatric nurse, and that whole area of medicine is worth studying and can be helpful to victims. As a person who cannot concentrate will benefit from learning they have ADHD. Education rocks. I educate myself about what I choose, I will get understanding where I am led, and I will grow in the education outside of the limited spheres that have been deemed valid by you. It has helped me to identify those who victimize BEFORE I again become a victim Being as this is a public board, and PEOPLE pushed this girl to suicide, I think looking at the type of PEOPLE who do such a thing is warranted. Fairytales don't always have happy endings - so even if I choose to absorb only sweet rainbows of stories - they still are not what rose-colored glasses block out. Reality bites at times. People pushing others to suicide bites. The kind of people WHO do that bite. Sometimes looking at a situation and the people in it can be revealing. Seems like you have a pretty good handle on "crazy" there, Pond. So, this information will not be helpful to you. So, ignore it. I don’t know why you took it so personally as if I inserted your name in the slot where I discussed the general characteristics of mental illness. You choose to trade the term mental illness for devil spirit and took things personally. That would be your reaction to an inocuious observation and public discussion. Maybe you want to take a moment and see why it brought up such anger in you.

Thanks all But I am not really speaking of my situation although it is fuel. I have a friend who is in a bad marriage and this friend asked me how to get out with the blessing of God. This friend does not believe the committment made had God anywhere in it....so why is the friend bound to keep it? This had me thinking of VOWS in general. TWI with the WOW field and the CORPS made it seem as though bad things would happened to us if we BROKE our vow -- Sure there was no membership -- Just this heavy misunderstanding of a VOW to keep us locked in place

Garth - to my understanding Sociopath's can't there is no conscience in them. They have no barameter. They only immitate the "feelings" they see others have to get by and LOOK human - they use these acting tools to manipulate those around them A narcississt won't they have a conscience they are just warped in that they only want to see everything and how it affects them Sociopaths are like something the SCFI channel would create -- only they are really here. A narcississt choses not to care, a sociopath does not have the ability to care - there is nothing in them that is real, they are devoid of conscience. They are an open tomb of dead that "acts" as if they feel because they can't.... From all I read. But either way, these monsters push people to suicide for GAIN or for SPORT They win at all costs -- and if someone dies so they can win - so-be-it But they will cry at the funeral and look real "sad" But inside happy because -- that woman was not going to get one over on them.... Win at all costs. You can not compete with a sociopath - you can only cut your losses and walk away. There is no cure because you cannot teach someone how to have a conscience.

This book was suggested on another site. I then included it in a post on a different thread. I do not want to derail so I brought it over here. http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interview...hor_number=1097 This is an interesting book The following is excerpts from an interview with the author and the link where it can be found The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Strout An Interview with Martha Stout How do you spot a sociopath? A sociopath has no conscience, no ability to feel shame, guilt or remorse. Since 1 in 25 ordinary Americans is a sociopath, you almost certainly know one or more than one already. How can you recognize him or her? Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they live only to dominate others and win. Who is the devil you know? Could it be your lying, cheating ex-husband? Your sadistic high school gym teacher? Your boss who loves to humiliate people in meetings? Sometimes you just know 'em when you see 'em…. Historical sociopaths: Hitler, Stalin, Rasputin, Eichmann, Pol Pot, John Gotti Thirteen Rules for Dealing with Sociopaths in Everyday Life The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience, and that these people do not often look like Charles Manson or a Ferengi bartender. They look like us. In a contest between your instincts and what is implied by the role a person has taken on -- educator, doctor, leader, animal-lover, humanist, parent -- go with your instincts. Whether you want to be or not, you are a constant observer of human behavior, and your unfiltered impressions, though alarming and seemingly outlandish, may well help you out if you will let them. Your best self understands, without being told, that impressive and moral-sounding labels do not bestow conscience on anyone who did not have it to begin with. When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has. Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy. One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding instead. Two may involve a serious mistake. But three lies says you're dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior. Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly. Do not give your money, your work, your secrets, or your affection to a three-timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted. Question authority. ... Suspect flattery. ... If necessary, redefine your concept of respect. ... ... The resolve to keep respect separate from fear is even more crucial for groups and nations. Do not join the game. If total avoidance is impossible, make plans to come as close as you can to the goal of total avoidance. Question your tendency to pity too easily. Do not be afraid to be unsmiling and calmly to the point. Do not try to redeem the unredeemable. ... The sociopath's behavior is not your fault, not in any way whatsoever. It is also not your mission. Your mission is your own life. ... Never agree, out of pity or for any other reason, to help a sociopath conceal his or her true character. "Please don't tell," often spoken tearfully and with great gnashing of teeth, is the trademark plea of thieves, child abusers-- and sociopaths. Do not listen to this siren-song. Other people deserve to be warned more than sociopaths deserve to have you keep their secrets. ... Defend your psyche.

RE: the book http://www.bookbrowse.com/author_interview...hor_number=1097 I love this Question authority. Once again -- trust your own instincts and anxieties, especially those concerning people who claim that dominating others, violence, war, or some other violation of your conscience is the grand solution to some problem. Do this even when, or especially when, everyone around you has completely stopped questioning authority. Recite to yourself what Stanley Milgram taught us about obedience. (At least six out of ten people will blindly obey a present, official-looking authority to the bitter end.) The good news is that having social support makes people somewhat more likely to challenge authority. Encourage those around you to question, too

I dunno...

CMAN I see what you are saying and I am thinking the same way Lucy- it is interesting to me as I think I have beat myself up over this VOW thing when God may not have been in many of the vows I made... Look at the OT again Numbers 30 2If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth Shoot, either I need to stop communicating or this is not meant to be some rigid thing to the NT people Cause I have said I swear I am never going to eat more than one piece of pizza again ....and I have. I promise I will always tithe -- and I didn't I vowed I would always stand with TWI (back when I thought IT was THE ministry) after I saw it was a bad VOW - I broke it. I stayed on the WOW field afraid to break a VOW when I needed to go home for my Dad. ETC.... My responsibility would be to exam my words before I speak them, but in the balance of that, I am not bound by all I have spoken as I have a loving forgiving God. And some vows were not suppose to be made... So, we recognize the mistake, or the circumstances around the vow -- or the changed circumstances and go from there... By giving value to the NT and the commands there. GOD MUST HAVE SEEN we could not keep the law -- because he gave his only begotten son... Matthew 22:36-40. 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments With TWI I SAW that I could not Love the Lord the way it is stated above and carry out the requests of TWI With pizza - maybe I should say "I will try...." And with the tithe - not make declarations I may not always keep... The WOW field - I should have taken care of my home responsibilities and never let people USE this VOW thing to make me do what they wanted me to do - rather than follow my godly heart and what I felt God wanted me to do... Part is my BAD And the other well, I do not think God is as rigid on us as we are on ourselves sometimes. Can you break a VOW? It depends...