Dot Matrix

My friend, sent me the International Inductive Study Bible (NAS) It has done wonders to open the scriptures for me - I also could not handle the King James after the Way so twisted it into "new doctrines" I am so grateful to God and for legitimate men who stand on the word of God!And to HEAR Jesus being taught and not jeered at - like just an ending to a prayer - an after thought - ya know!

I recall reading this and thinking it was not applicable to me because I was born again. I was not perishing - but apparently I was. If you are a spiritual being and denied spiritual food - you perish. Or are marred or lost. Perhaps not forever but until the veil comes off, to what God really wants you to do!

Waysider You were fortunate. Was that in the early days? Just curious. As I do not recall that kind of prayer. And I certainly did not bring it into my personal life from the way. A lot of my prayer life was developed in early childhood Bible school and later the pentecostals. I was NEVER told or I do not recall ever being told for the eyes of my understanding to be opened. Boy, were you lucky!

I bring up TWI as we were in it. There are many places where satan lulls people to sleep. Many denominations etc. So, my point is the word perish does not mean those who are not going to hell, necessarily it can mean those born again then shuffled back into the body of death – those who never understand what the resurrected body of Christ brought TO US! But you can get born again and immediately shuffled off into some weird organization who does not allow the truth of God to shine and you can "perish."

This is not an open invitation - This is for those who love God and are not Way defenders, I would like to NOT extend an invitation to this thread as it is important to me, and I do not want the same old denial to ruin things. So, please I am asking this thread to only draw people who recognize TWI was a cult. I was reading a thing on the net that struck me. It speaks of satanic blindness. Now, this hit home because MANY of my WAY friends including myself have gotten to the point after leaving TWI where they could not read the Bible and understand it. They/I would say it is almost like a cloud or a veil would hang between me and the scriptures - so I read Christian books. I THINK in the middle of all the wrong doctrine, in the fourth dimension, perhaps we were having spiritual bad things happening to us, such as a satanic veil laid across our minds. A satanic blindness so we could not read the scriptures but only “their” interpretation on them. A friend of mine, who has his doctorate in theology – a brilliant man, recently pushed and pushed me to read the BIBLE stop all the extraneous stuff. In the middle of this coaxing, he was sharing Romans with me. And frankly I could not get the depth of what he taught. Some things I saw and WOW it was wonderful but as he grew excited about certain things I just did not get the understanding. I asked him how he got to SEE all that and he spoke of the WORD as living words and how he asks God to reveal things to him. HE prays and when stuck, many times there is much study and sometimes he goes to sleep and God reveals the answer to him. I mean how wonderful that the FIRST thing he does before he reads the word is goes to God for understanding. I do not ever recall praying for understanding in any of TWI meetings. Because arrogantly the ministry claimed to “have the keys” and “the truth”. Simple things like inviting God to the reading and understanding of his book – is simple yet crucial. So, we as peon believers did not have to ask God to help us with scriptures but this brilliant guy with his doctorate humbly did each time he read the Bible…. hmmmm So, I tried to see from his eyes the word of God. Because I was afraid to look after the evil detour the cult took me on. I do not think I trusted my own walk with God and brain. I do think the groundwork for this was laid in TWI. (I am asking for this not to be jumped on by Way defenders but that we remain in the topic of Satanic blindness) Let’s just look at some of the scripture in this study: 2 Corinthians 4 Paul's Apostolic Ministry 1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So death works in us, but life in you. 13 But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak, 14 knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God. 16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. Here it is. And it speaks of those who are perishing the word is “apolluni” perish. It has not necessarily been translated as those going to hell, or those who will never be born again, or who have not been born again. It speaks of “loose” “loose away” destroy and if is also speaking of “to be lost” or to be “marred” "In whom the god [sATAN] of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the Image of God, should shine unto them" (II Cor. 4:4). When the deception is taken away, people will understand Next, notice what Jesus Himself says would happen if this Satanic blindness were removed: "For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed [Why? Why are their eyes ‘closed?’ Because, "the god of this world has BLINDED… them…" That’s why] lest at ANY TIME they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should BE CONVERTED, and I should HEAL them" (Matt. 13:15). When Satan blinds the minds of people, they "believe NOT." And they cannot repent, be converted, or saved until the blindness is lifted and they are given a knowledge of the Truth. Or perhaps after salvation the veil robs them of the life they should have has with Jesus!!! I think this is what happened to many of us! When first in the WAY, under BG Leonard’s class renamed Power for Abundant Living and marketed by Weirwille, my friends and I absorbed the words of the word of God like a sponge. It was after the groundwork was laid that VP had some special gift that had not been known since the first century, that we accepted weird azz things like the entire Christian Family and sex class. The whole masturbation thing being the first sin – ya know the tree on the ground and saw it was good or some like crap… I think this was the first class I started to have a cloud. I could not understand any other references he made to the Bible to support his theology, but being as the Power for Abundant living (PFAL) class was so delivering, I was inclined to think I was some how stupid and just did not get the greatness being taught. In a way, this began my liturgy attitude toward the Way (TWI) and I became more accepting of things that were just plain WRONG. And if I knew they were wrong I tried to fight them but somehow was kept in my place by this deadness to the scriptures in part. I studied the scriptures to confront Weirwille and when I did he just twisted the scriptures back at me. Then, there was corps night. We were listening to the elite unfolding of scripture – or that was the marketing campaign, anyway. When in reality it was perverted, subverted, and covertly leaked to us as nutrition was really poison to further make us feel small in our understanding to the largeness of their great revelations. Or how about LCM (MAN of GOD after VP) his command of the English language? He would say a paragraph or two with no commas, periods, etc. The sentences were delivered with such authority that had to be truth – but when pulled apart by a mere English chart you could clearly see they made no sense. But we bought it as his being spiritual and someday we too will understand these great truths. But most of my friends HATED corps night because they were boring, sleep promoting, unscriptural crap research. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savour; Who WILL have all men to be saved [and just how might that come about?], and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" (I Tim. 2:4). I was saved but in the hallways of Weirwille adulation and wrong doctrines, I never came to a knowledge of the truth at least to the point which God offers us because of this veil inflicted upon us by the false prophets. And I dare say, that when I picked up the Bible, as did many of my friends upon their Exodus we could not read, enjoy or understand the scripture because something was placed on us – “Spiritual blindness” I think we became sick in TWI, we did not have the light shine into us once we were taken from the foundational things BG Leonard had taught and brought into Weirwille’s own crazy research. We had Jesus removed as a personal relationship, we had the KEYS so why ask God to help us understand – that was viewed as “private interpretation” and that was shunned. If we got excited about how the living words pertain to us personally – it was a violation of 2 Peter 1:21 (King James Version) 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost This was used to get us to research but then used to prevent us from thinking or allowing God to have free reign over his book and what he reveals to us.

Happy Birthday

To the cafe's class ACT Happy Birthday!

Writing in the thought of Rummies post The problem is mostly you are in therapy with the victim not the perp. If vp were getting treatment then maybe someone could report him or enter him in a facility On 2nd thought I guess a victim may want to hurt themselves or vic - but that would not involve the police None of this involves police does it? More like mental institutions

Thanks my bottle of Rum!

And the choir said amen

Here is one: I know a girl ready to go into the one-year spouse corps program who was with child. She was advised - he who vow a vow - and told to have an abortion. I think that is bad counsel We all counseled from the wrong idiotic doctrine we were taught by the park bench sleeping now I am saved twig leaders (I am being sarcastic)

MY POINT what we have TODAY is not what we had 20 years ago. The good guys did the best they could with what they had. Back to therapy....

To your other post, all this appeared while I was writing to you Yeah Rhino With what I know now - If I could go back I would press a law suit. At this age LCM is not a frightening vein popping monster and Vic is just a small endowed ego maniac on a farm. But at the time LCM frightened me and Vic, well, he held the power of God's love in his hands - ya know It was a lot to loose. I know I told people about the stuff trying to find help. Ya know what I found out? They were all in on it or powerless. It was a journey then, going forward in a blind fog. Looking back it is a clear path of stupid weirdo men who screamed a lot. At the time they held our spirituality in their hands. Hap Legally they have to report it if they are a danger to themselves or to others. Now, you have to define danger... I know people who just lived through this.

Your point has merit Rhino. I think we all get your point. We just do not all share it. Depends on which side of the fence you were living, I guess. I know a person whose husband became a woman. The wife had even gone in with the husband for a joint session and none of this was made known to her. Later, she confronted the therapist, who knew of his proclivities for years, and told the therapist, "you ruined my life." Then, she, herself, tried to commit suicide and is now in therapy and does not want anyone to know what she did and why she did it. But instability might it affect her job or fellow employees? But if this info was made know would she loose her job then never seek help? Life can be a convoluted mess. Now granted his “change” did not affected tons of people but it ruined her life. It depends on which side of the fence you are on, your point is valid. Ask Don what he found out. I think he again answered what he did in the first post on this thread. He really did his best, better than most and certainly beyond any name calling or finger pointing that should ever happen here at the cafe. Here is one spot: Perhaps, you just need to see the problem from all sides. It has many sides. And in TWI, Don has a valid point in that, nobody was really qualified to handle the lockbox information being told to them except perhaps Dr. L and when he did some good they shut him down, if I read the post correctly. Take a walk in his shoes for a moment - I bet you would not have been comfortable and would not have done a better job. maybe as a young man in a cult you would have, who knows now.

No, I never said anything remotely like that must be someone else

Don stated In Christian Counseling, the Breaking Free Series, they spoke of the success rate of counseling. And the highest success rate was based on the relationship, the trust relationship, between the counselor and the counselee. It cannot be broken. Had that confidence been broken you could have killed those people, and if not killed them, destined them to a lifetime of bondage. The trust relationship was imperative. Healing does not happen where that relationship is impugned.

WD She also wrote this about YOU somewhere in the middle You even pushed your defender over the edge Which is where most people are - on the other side of the precipice Looking at you hoping someday the lobotomy is again legal

When Bad Christians Happen to Good people about the book Targeting every person who has ever been hurt by a Christian–as well as those believers responsible for inflicting such damaging wounds–author Dave Burchett calls for a new way of relating that will bring healing to the church and transform our witness to the world. 12 Steps for the Recovering Pharisee by Dave Burchett about the book

I agree with Word Wolf And if you posted to get people to beg you to stay that may or may not happen Leave if you must, there are plently of civil rights groups that would love to have you GREAT post The thread? Well, no offense BUT... seems like Just another way to show case your POV - and have the last word - it really adds nothing, settles nothing but adds more fuel to your POV - sorry Charlie

My waterproof mascara did not survive this -- oh my gosh --- this was such a great story and lesson about love and respecting life

Ya know Rummie, Then do these guys STAY in the marriage being as they were deceived into a lying arranged marriage? Where had they known they NEVER would have agreed? It must change some of their feelings towards these woman who were in the stable willingly and never told their husbands they were sent by the stable master "to get them to marry them." How does a man deal with that? If I were he? I think I would be very depressed and ultimately leave if counseling did not work... Cause I would NOT believe that "God joined us together." Just because pappa in the word performed a ceromony? I do not think so. I looked all through the Bible on the yoked - joined stuff and I think it speaks more of the "match making" then the words of a "legal" ceromony or goverment document. I think God does have a hand in bringing people together. So, this whole --send that guy with potential my party girl to marry --is not what I call God joining together. Or after they marry. They begin to service the Moggie. Adultery is a way out of marriage. But TWI never recognized it as such. It was living on a higher plane and meeting the needs of the moggie... which eventually became every corps guy with a stifie (excuse me)

With Women taught to SERVICE and men taught to TAKE no wonder there was confusion and every evil work. I recall a guy in my corps asked me to SNS. While sitting next to him he slides his hand over and starts to grab/rub my -pp-le/ breast. I yelled in a whisper to him to knock it off. And he said it was no different than touching my elbow. So, I told him to touch my elbow then. And another time in a WAY HOME, my corps brother came into my room, where I was sleeping, and jumped on top of me as if I was going to turn in delight and squeal in acceptance, I fought him off me and prayed to God for help. He passed out as he was drunk. But ya know what he had said to me? "I see the way you look at me corps nights so I know you want me." Truth be told, I barely noticed he was alive. But he was apparently schooled to think "we" all wanted "it". I told JAL. (Cause I already had a crime happen to me via a top guy in the ministry.) And it, with my corps bro, was down played like "boys will be boys" but he dang near forced himself -- which would have been RAPE... I did not need this crap. But apparently some women wanted it. I was NOT one of them

Oh Rummie It is so sad To think a man has a wonderful wife - only touched by him and then she is summoned and submits. And a man, not you but like yourself, finds out his wife is servicing the MAN who taught him the Bible!!! How horrible and confusing is that? This story is your son's story Krys and your poor DIL lost her mind as a result. Ya know, in the Bible not much allows divorce but adultery is a deal breaker. I can see why - the pain and confusion is horrific. Now, add to that it is YOUR spiritual leader!!!! Rummie, there were men honored to eat the crumbs from the kings table? OMG!!!! I know one of the ordained straight guys told me of a WOMAN who considered it an honor for her daughter to be touched by MOGGIE and actually brought her daughter to HIM after she herself serviced him. (We were as bad as the Jim Jones and Koersh people) And people like WD still decline the stories like some kind of arm chair Perry Mason? Barf

Ya know Krys your story does make me wonder about all the men out there that were used to marry the VP and LCM cast offs - and did not know it. (Cast offs were victims as well) I knew, it was happening as, 3 (that is right) guys had women sent to them, who were cast off's, guys I was "seeing," because I said no to the Vicster (umm Viper) and they said yes to either Vic or one on the totem pole. It was such a sick system we followed. I cannot imagine how those men felt when they found out these women were SENT to them because these women were compliant - and I wasn't. After all, if I would not "do it for them" apparently, I could not do it for God. I actually had a corps coordinator apologize for sending women to two guys I had seen so I KNOW it happened. Now, that I think of it, there may have been another guy I was seeing who had a compliant woman sent to him... Geez. Maybe four. (Now, not every guy I was seeing dated or married a cast off - just to clarify)

Ex I like the depth from which Janis Ian composes as well